Wide Receivers are Frustrated

[Russ Smith]

On ESPN Page 2's Snap Judgement one of the guys from FootballOutsiders.com does a ranking of the week's QB performances, along with a little descriptive tag. I don't think Josh McCown has yet busted the top 10 or maybe even 15 on the list. This week's comment was "I don't think that Arizona drafted all three speedy receivers high to average 8 yards per catch," or something along those lines. No one is getting the ball so they can run with it. We're talking about the same thing here; don't think I'm arguing with you.

I don't think we are either. I'm a firm believer in this day and age that you can turn around a team quickly. I said when we hired Green he'd be worth probably 3 wins more just on his ability to coach vs Mac, with absolutely zero personnel changes. When you add in the personnel he's brought in here I think it's reasonable to think we could win 5 more games this year on a similar schedule to last year and win 9 games. But then something unexpected happened, the entire division above us was exposed as frauds, Seattle and the Rams have talent, but they're not consistent and they're not tough enough. When I look at our schedule now I think Green's 10-6 prediction was quite realistic.

I'm just not convinced we'll get there because we can't throw the ball. I don't think King is as good as Blake would have been in this offense, and neither of them is a long term move, but I do think that when a coach comes out and says 10-6 and playoffs, its unreasonable to then hear week after week be patient with the QB he's inexperienced, a work in progress, and if he doesn't pan out we'll fix it next year. I think 9-10 wins was realistic in this division with our defense and when you consider our passing game has gotten WORSE since Quan came back, that excuse no longer holds water either.

If we want to be a playoff team we have to fix the passing game somehow.

 

[jstadvl]

So K-9

am I correct in assuming you picked us to go to the playoffs before pre-season?

 

[conraddobler]

Then don't read it, Conrad! Seriously, it's pretty obvious that this team is winning despite Josh McCown, not because of him. I trust Denny, and believe him when he says that this is a playoff team. I'm just not sure that we can win in the playoffs with Josh McCown playing like he is.

All we're doing is pointing out the problems that he has throwing the ball, and that the WRs are going to end up frustrated with him, if they're not already. Just because we notched a "W" doesn't mean that everything's beer and skittles. That was the lesson of the Dave McGinnis regime. You have to keep getting better every week, win or lose. I think the problem is that every part of the team keeps getting better week to week, except the guy taking the snaps from under center.

Josh McCown has had three years to learn the NFL game. I just don't want to flush a possible playoff berth down the toilet because he can't figure out how to throw the ball so a guy can catch it in stride.

You just basically said I trust DG, but not with QB's.

Considering how many different QB's he's won with exactly how do you justify that kind of logic?

I'll save you the brain cells, you just don't like Josh which is fine but it shouldn't take a thousand posts to say that.

Your right I just wont read yours anymore.

 

[kerouac9]

am I correct in assuming you picked us to go to the playoffs before pre-season?

No, but I look at this team, and see how bad the rest of the confrence is, and I think that, after 10 week of the season, that this is a team that could sneak into the playoffs. With a QB that can put the ball where a WR could catch it and run, this team could storm into the playoffs.

What's the difference whether or not I picked this team to make the playoffs in the preseason? I was wrong, but I think I said that this team could win somewhere between 6 and 8 games. I picked the Bills to go to the Super Bowl in the preseason. What's the difference?

 

[Russ Smith]

am I correct in assuming you picked us to go to the playoffs before pre-season?

I don't know if anybody but Green did. But what's the point? The division is MUCH weaker than we expected, our schedule is MUCH weaker (who thought months ago that Miami and Carolina would look like lock wins?), the fact is this team is in striking distance right now and the goal should be to do whatever gives us the best chance to win now. Some of us don't think Josh gives us the best chance.

We get Quan back and the passing game gets WORSE?

 

[kerouac9]

You just basically said I trust DG, but not with QB's.

Considering how many different QB's he's won with exactly how do you justify that kind of logic?

I'll save you the brain cells, you just don't like Josh which is fine but it shouldn't take a thousand posts to say that.

Your right I just wont read yours anymore.

That's not what I said. Dennis Green has won with so many different QBs by lighting up the scoreboard. Dennis Green said in the preseason that this could be a Top 5 offense. That kind of fell by the wayside with the injuries to the WR corps, but now all the pieces are in place. We scored 17 points yesterday. We had 67 yards passing. We averaged 2.8 yards per attempt. That's not Top 5 production.

If Denny wants to hitch his 2004 wagon to Josh McCown and his scatter-arm, that's fine. I won't call for his head on it, but I'd like to know what Denny is seeing that we're not. Can you honestly say that you watched McCown yesterday and thought, "you know, this is as good as it gets. I'm totally satisfied with our production from the QB position"? Don't you think that this team, especially this defense and these WRs, deserve better? Like some margin for error?

 

[jstadvl]

My point

is only, that many of us never thought we'd even have shot. Now we're thinking we do, but even though we're winning, we need to change QB's.
It's like i said earlier, there are things McCown could do alot better at. He knows it too. But, as Conrad and I stated, as long as he is'nt losing games for us, he'll be there. If we reach the number of wins people projected in the beginning of the year, we should be happy with those numbers.

 

[Russ Smith]

You just basically said I trust DG, but not with QB's.

Considering how many different QB's he's won with exactly how do you justify that kind of logic?

I'll save you the brain cells, you just don't like Josh which is fine but it shouldn't take a thousand posts to say that.

Your right I just wont read yours anymore.

Conrad, with all due respect, using Green's career in Minnesota to judge how he's handling OUR QB is not valid. Seriously, show me one time in Minnesota where Green's offense was bottom 5 in passing and he made no move at QB?
It never happened, what we're seeing is unprecedented with a Green coached team.

I keep saying I have to believe King is just terrible in practice when he gets reps because there's just no other logical explanation for why Green continues to go with Josh. This team is so close to a playoff run, all we need is the spark, the same one we got in 98 when the offense took off, 25 PPG down the stretch, and we made it. The spark then came from no huddle offense and Jake playing better, suddenly Murrell had room to run, and we were a different offense.

I want to see a spark like that this year, if Josh is the QB the rest of the year that spark HAS to come from him.

 

[Russ Smith]

is only, that many of us never thought we'd even have shot. Now we're thinking we do, but even though we're winning, we need to change QB's.
It's like i said earlier, there are things McCown could do alot better at. He knows it too. But, as Conrad and I stated, as long as he is'nt losing games for us, he'll be there. If we reach the number of wins people projected in the beginning of the year, we should be happy with those numbers.

Then we just disagree.

Here's an analogy, you design chips for DSL and the goal is a 100MB chip. During the development you realize that one of the guys on the project isn't very good, that he's missed an obvious design change that would give you 125 MB. Do you just sit quiet and put out the 100MB chip and say hey we hit our goal, or do you speak up, point out if we did this we could get 125MB? It's a competition and sometimes someone's feelings are going to get hurt, but if it helps the company or team as a whole, it has to be pointed out.

In my mind the goal is 10 wins because that's what Green said in the preseason. To get there now means we have to go 6-1, that's HIGHLY unlikely, so I don't see that we will reach the number of wins projected. If we're not using Greens' projections, who are we using and why them?

 

[kerouac9]

If we reach the number of wins people projected in the beginning of the year, we should be happy with those numbers.

This I disagree with. No one knew that Carolina was going to have two wins at this point in the season in August. No one knew that Miami was going to be that bad. No one knew that Seattle was going to be the most overrated team of the year. No one knew that Tampa was going to be this bad.

It's Week 10, and most everybody understands what they have in their team now. What the Cardinals have is a great WR corps, a playmaking defense, a productive running attack, and a stiff under center. There's going to be a game, at the rate the defense is playing, where we're going to give up 14 points and lose. That's going to be on the back of one player: Josh McCown, regardless of whether or not he throws a pick. I don't want this team to turn into the 21st Century version of the late 1990s New York Giants.

How wrong are you? Ask a Charger fan if he'd be happy with his team losing out because no one expected them to win more than five games, anyway.

 

[SECTION 11]

Here's an analogy, you design chips for DSL and the goal is a 100MB chip. During the development you realize that one of the guys on the project isn't very good, that he's missed an obvious design change that would give you 125 MB. Do you just sit quiet and put out the 100MB chip and say hey we hit our goal, or do you speak up, point out if we did this we could get 125MB? It's a competition and sometimes someone's feelings are going to get hurt, but if it helps the company or team as a whole, it has to be pointed out.

This of course assumes that Quan is the mouse and Nate Hodel is the brightness/contrast knob on the monitor.

 

[jstadvl]

I'm using

our own to keep this in a reality check.
As for the analogy, I'd use them both, a two phase kind of thing.
I'm not saying IF MCCown blows it he shouldn't be pulled AND Green obviously will if he feels McCown is blowing it. However, the team is rolling along, winning (albeit ugly sometimes), changing things now could blow up in our faces.
If the division didn't turn out to be the way it looks right now, Panthers also,
Would we be happy with the progress we're making? I guess that's my point.

 

[AZCARDINALS4EVA]

Frustrated

Did anyone see after the play when he threw the ball over fitzgeralds head that Josh came to the bench and took off his helmet and slammed the hell out of it into the phone bench? (or whatever its called) . He is very frustrated.

 

[Russ Smith]

This of course assumes that Quan is the mouse and Nate Hodel is the brightness/contrast knob on the monitor.

Quan would be the project lead that comes in like Mr Scott and says if we just wave this tuning fork back and forth we can reverse the polarity and get an extra 25 MBs out of this baby.

To be honest that was a bad analogy, I work for a DSL company and I know perfectly well that companies can and DO hold back speed on chips because they know the phone companies aren't going to deploy them quickly anyways.

That's why the standard in Japan right now is ~40MB with 80 to 100 on the way in 6 months or so, and people in Cupertino, CA, smack in the middle of Silicon Valley, are happy to get 1.5 MB DSL.

 

[Russ Smith]

our own to keep this in a reality check.
As for the analogy, I'd use them both, a two phase kind of thing.
I'm not saying IF MCCown blows it he shouldn't be pulled AND Green obviously will if he feels McCown is blowing it. However, the team is rolling along, winning (albeit ugly sometimes), changing things now could blow up in our faces.
If the division didn't turn out to be the way it looks right now, Panthers also,
Would we be happy with the progress we're making? I guess that's my point.

That's true but if King comes in and doesn't play well, you can always go back to Josh.

 

[jstadvl]

alright K-9

Ask any Charger fan if they were happy with Brees (sp) last year? What would they say? HE SUCKS! We're getting RIVERS! Ask how many of them are in hog heaven and want him benched now? Dollar to donut, they're all in HH and none of them wants him benched. We have to wait it out.

 

[kerouac9]

However, the team is rolling along, winning (albeit ugly sometimes), changing things now could blow up in our faces.

I guess my point is that this team isn't "rolling along." They're winning games, yeah, but the Eagles are "rolling along." The Colts are "rolling along." The Patriots are "rolling along." This team is 4-5 and has scored twelve fewer points than they've allow. That is most definitely not "rolling along."

How could changing things blow up in their faces? Might they throw for fewer than 100 yards in a game? Oh, wait...

 

[Stout]

Did anyone see after the play when he threw the ball over fitzgeralds head that Josh came to the bench and took off his helmet and slammed the hell out of it into the phone bench? (or whatever its called) . He is very frustrated.

Then he can stop sucking.

Man, for about 2 1/2 quarters, I thought we might have something. Josh wasn't playing lights-out, or even above average, but he was doing well, making some throws downfield, albeit off target, and progress was being made. I was a wee bit pleased. I was ready to give him another game or two.

Then the rest of the game happened. Same old Josh. Almost throwing a stupid pick. Taking a bad sack, that just happened to be called back from a penalty. Missing WIDE OPEN receivers. He's frustrated? THEN HE CAN FIX HIS TERRIBLE PLAY!!!

But, like I said in another thread...that first half earned him at least another week in my eyes. If we don't start seeing VAST improvement, though, he's gotta go, even if we're winning.

Let's face it-who here has confidence right now that Josh can step up and win us a playoff game? Show of hands? Anyone?

*crickets chirping*

That's what I thought.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ask any Charger fan if they were happy with Brees (sp) last year? What would they say? HE SUCKS! We're getting RIVERS! Ask how many of them are in hog heaven and want him benched now? Dollar to donut, they're all in HH and none of them wants him benched. We have to wait it out.

Drew Brees started out his Charger career by going 7-2 and looking pretty damn good doing it - that's all I'll say.

The Josh argument is boring, but when it seems like almost everything else is going well (even special teams last game) I guess it's really all there is to discuss - I've had my battles here - I've let my feelings be known - no need to continue on with it for me.

Keep ripping away though folks - it's an interesting read when I need to be put to sleep.

 

[conraddobler]

Russ I'm not arguing that you can't bench McCown you can but what makes you think DG is just screwing this up?

Why would he not bench McCown for a series or two just to make a point to him?

He could amp up the heat on Josh anytime he wants without necessarily benching him for good, so why hasn't he?

I am just arguing that DG has reasons and that I will defer to those reasons, especially when we are winning.

I see no reason to panic while we are winning. DG isn't he kind of coach that would stand by and watch awful perfromances forever without doing something. I guess I just trust him to do what he feels he should that's all.

 

[kerouac9]

Ask any Charger fan if they were happy with Brees (sp) last year? What would they say? HE SUCKS! We're getting RIVERS! Ask how many of them are in hog heaven and want him benched now? Dollar to donut, they're all in HH and none of them wants him benched. We have to wait it out.

Are you serious? Drew Brees has the third-best passer rating in the NFL right now. Josh McCown has the 23rd. The more realistic question is if you asked a Ravens fan two or three weeks ago if they'd rather have Kyle Boller starting or Anthony Wright, I bet you'd get responses like you're seeing here.

I can't believe that you just compared Josh McCown and Drew Brees. Did you just think that was going to slip by? The Chargers are winning because of Drew Brees's play. The Cardinals are winning despite the fact that Josh McCown doesn't do anything special week to week. If Drew Brees were piloting a 4-5 team that was showing signs of life everywhere but under center, don't you think there would be some call for change at the QB position?

If you doubt it, ask Kurt Warner what he thinks.

 

[SECTION 11]

Are you serious? Drew Brees has the third-best passer rating in the NFL right now. Josh McCown has the 23rd. The more realistic question is if you asked a Ravens fan two or three weeks ago if they'd rather have Kyle Boller starting or Anthony Wright, I bet you'd get responses like you're seeing here.

I can't believe that you just compared Josh McCown and Drew Brees. Did you just think that was going to slip by? The Chargers are winning because of Drew Brees's play. The Cardinals are winning despite the fact that Josh McCown doesn't do anything special week to week. If Drew Brees were piloting a 4-5 team that was showing signs of life everywhere but under center, don't you think there would be some call for change at the QB position?

If you doubt it, ask Kurt Warner what he thinks.

That's all terrific, but his question was what Charger fans thought of Brees LAST year, when he was horrible.

 

[pete]

Russ I'm not arguing that you can't bench McCown you can but what makes you think DG is just screwing this up?

Why would he not bench McCown for a series or two just to make a point to him?

He could amp up the heat on Josh anytime he wants without necessarily benching him for good, so why hasn't he?

I am just arguing that DG has reasons and that I will defer to those reasons, especially when we are winning.

I see no reason to panic while we are winning. DG isn't he kind of coach that would stand by and watch awful perfromances forever without doing something. I guess I just trust him to do what he feels he should that's all.

True, the Cards are winning and that is the only thing probably saving McCown from being benched.

I think some people just want to see the Cards maximize every opportunity. If McCown were throwing for 200 - 300 yards and 2 - 3 TDs every game, no one would be having this discussion. But since he just came off a 90 yard no TD performance, fans are frustrated that he is holding the passing O back.

 

[pete]

If you doubt it, ask Kurt Warner what he thinks.

Only if you ask his wife first!

 

[kerouac9]

That's all terrific, but his question was what Charger fans thought of Brees LAST year, when he was horrible.

And there were people here who thought that Josh McCown was horrible last year, and that it was one pass that made the difference between then and now.

Both kept their jobs heading into the 2004 season. Drew Brees proved his critics wrong, and is going to get a $9 million signing bonus this spring. Josh McCown, well, some are still calling for him to be benched in Week 11, and I don't think that anyone is happy with his play. At least, no one is saying so.

You can't just discount a half-season of one guy being an MVP candidate and another being an older Kyle Boller (except for how Kyle Boller is showing signs of life with far less talent on the outside, but whatever).