Wide Receivers are Frustrated

[WildBB]

Cardinals win,

I think Green will give Josh all year much to the consternation of a few but that's what I think.

Now next year that could be interesting and Josh is liable to just wake up in a new city or farm of he dosen't start lighting it up this year.

He has shown he can make a play to win a game : the 4th down run - and pass to Fitz in the Miami game.

He needs to show poise in the pocket ( I Hope he saw Warner yesterday on what not to do) and greater consistency on reads (seeing the field).

 

[This_Guy]

Here's some perspective

3rd year QBs:

David Garrard: 19 of 36, 198 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs (Game winning TD pass)
Patrick Ramsey: 18 of 37, 210 yards, 1 TD, 2 INTs (in 1 HALF, brought the team back from down 17 to within a TD)

2nd Year QBs:

Carson Palmer: 24-39, 217 yards, 1 TD, 2 INTs (Tore up the leagues #1 defense)
Kyle Boller: 19-33, 213 yards, 2 TD, 0 INTs (Win)

Dennis Green, if he hasn't already, will cost this team a trip to the playoffs with his inexplicable alegiance to McCown. He was quoted numerous times last week saying "No one player is bigger than the system" and "Produce or we'll find someone that will" and yet McCown does not apply. 74 yards passing and yet it was CLEARLY his best performance over the past 3 weeks.

Back to the topic at hand, it's clear that the receivers agree that this doesn't apply to McCown. In Baltimore, it's clear that the team is behind Boller. Between the body language from the receivers and reports of sideline shouting, it's safe to say that the receivers don't believe in McCown.

It continues to be very painful to watch McCown play.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

You're right. It wasn't funny. I did have good things to say about Fitz last week, and I know you read them. That's part of why I'm so frustrated about Josh's performance yesterday.

I'm actually really, really excited about where this team is going. I was thinking about writing an article for front page consideration. Denny Green has made me a believer. This team is good enough, and the rest of the NFC is bad enough, for the 2004 Arizona Cardinals to be a playoff team. I believe that now. Firmly. The D is good enough to keep you in games. The O is just all right. The running game is solid enough for now. I think that we have a special WR corps. The kind that gets national writers excited. The kind that they sell posters of.

The one thing that I still don't believe in is Josh McCown. He doesn't lead WRs, unless it's into safeties (which he did at least twice yesterday), he can't throw the quick pass to the outside for gains (which is a trademark of Denny's offense--the Vikes still run it four times a game). It was nice to see him take some chances downfield, but none of the balls were remotely catchable.

The Jake Plummer Experiment (along with Shawn King, Aaron Brooks, Quincy Carter, etc.) has shown that a team can make the playoffs with the most mediocre of quarterbacks. I'd be happy with a Wild Card berth this year. Ecstatic. But McCown isn't progressing. By Week 12, he'll have 16 career starts, and people will have to stop saying that he's a "rookie." If he hasn't shown himself to be adequate as more than a caretaker who isn't going to kill you (and that's all--he's not even consistent at getting the chains moved--WITH THESE WRS CATCHING PASSES FOR HIM!!!), we're going to have to go in another direction next season. Hopefully, it'll be the David Garrard direction, because this team is too close to being competitive to burn a draft pick on a quarterback.

Excellent post. I think that many of us have been willing to give Josh a break all year long, making excuses for injured WR"s, bad O-line play, conservative playcalling, etc, but the fact of the matter is, Josh consistently misses wide open recievers, and many of his passes are extremely inaccurate. Because of this, and his inability to read blitzes, other teams blitz all the time, while with a more savvy quarterback, they wouldn't do it. I would love to see Shaun King get a chance, heck we are ranked 29th in total offense at this point, it can't get much worse.

 

[AZCardsWin]

Now we know why he keeps playing with that chin strap...maybe he should talk to the equipment manager...

One thing I didn't see mentioned here is Josh's head was spinning after this play and he even looked a little out of it during the post game press conference. It's amazing he even stayed in the game after that hit. I wouldn't be surprised if Josh doesn't remember some of the 2nd half- haha. I think this definitely played into Josh's overall numbers yesterday. But we won this game and will move forward from it!

Go Cards/ America!
Tim

 

[Russ Smith]

One thing I didn't see mentioned here is Josh's head was spinning after this play and he even looked a little out of it during the post game press conference. It's amazing he even stayed in the game after that hit. I wouldn't be surprised if Josh doesn't remember some of the 2nd half- haha. I think this definitely played into Josh's overall numbers yesterday. But we won this game and will move forward from it!

Go Cards/ America!
Tim

That's certainly possible, hit happened with 59 seconds left in the 3rd quarter.

By my count he was 2-9 after that play and took 2 sacks.

May in fact have been a bit dazed. Which if true makes you wonder why he was still in there? Afterall the next drive was the one where he threw 3 incompletes and was out in 15 seconds, and that my explain how he missed Fitz that wide open?

I think you're on to something.

 

[pete]

I thought the hit was in the 2nd quarter, not the 3rd?

Some of his comments after the game lead me to believe he might have suffered a concussion on that hit, but I saw him on the sidelines afterwards and he looked to be alert and coherent. On the one play where he overthrew Fitz, he came to the sideline and slammed his helmut down. He was pissed, but so was everyone else.

 

[WildBB]

Excellent post. I think that many of us have been willing to give Josh a break all year long, making excuses for injured WR"s, bad O-line play, conservative playcalling, etc, but the fact of the matter is, Josh consistently misses wide open recievers, and many of his passes are extremely inaccurate. Because of this, and his inability to read blitzes, other teams blitz all the time, while with a more savvy quarterback, they wouldn't do it. I would love to see Shaun King get a chance, heck we are ranked 29th in total offense at this point, it can't get much worse.

Yesterday the play - calling wasn't as conservative. Green let him do a few things. But without much success.

He can be pretty sure that the blitz will be coming all yr. until he handles it.

People were saying at the draft last yr. we'd be unstoppable - passing with Fitz, & I was saying - yea wait and see how much time Josh gets to look for them. It's gonna be stopable.

That said also I put in a thread b4 the Miami game to start King NOW. I think we get those two W's easier with him in there. JMO. We did it kind of the hard way.

Josh needs to step up in the next away game - big time!

 

[Russ Smith]

I thought the hit was in the 2nd quarter, not the 3rd?

Some of his comments after the game lead me to believe he might have suffered a concussion on that hit, but I saw him on the sidelines afterwards and he looked to be alert and coherent. On the one play where he overthrew Fitz, he came to the sideline and slammed his helmut down. He was pissed, but so was everyone else.

Whoops you're right, 59 seconds left in the 2nd quarter not 3rd. Numbers I posted were right but if he had a concussion he played the whole 2nd half with it.

And the next drive was NOT the one he missed a wide open Fitz on, well he did miss an open Fitz on that drive too but not the one we're all talking about.

Makes you wonder even more if he was that shook up why he stayed in the game, the assumption is they looked him over at the half and decided he was ok.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

You could see it in their faces when they came off the field. One week McCown is throwing the ball at their feet, then the next he is throwing it 5 feet over their head. Granted, the wind was swirling around the stadium yesterday and I saw some passes from Warner sail high over in the NE corner too, but McCown seemed to have problems throwing the ball in just about any area of the stadium.

One thing I did notice as the players came onto the field for the second half is Boldin and King walking and throwing the ball together. You get the feeling if the WRs had their choice, King would be in there right now.

I am happy with the win, but VERY VERY unhappy with our QB. He looked very bad yeasterday, and did not even give our big WR a chance.......and what is his infatuation with Karl Williams?

 

[cardsunsfan]

I am happy with the win, but VERY VERY unhappy with our QB. He looked very bad yeasterday, and did not even give our big WR a chance.......and what is his infatuation with Karl Williams?

Maybe Karl Williams is the only receiver that isn't ripping on him?

 

[Pariah]

Maybe Karl Williams is the only receiver that isn't ripping on him?

Right, 'cause why would the kettle call the pot black?

 

[NeverSayDieFan]

On Joshs' vicious hit...

Need some help here guys. I was watching it on satellite so you only get certain camera "angles" but AFTER the "hit", which could've easily broken his neck, DID Cardinal players rush to his side to make sure he was okay?? Now, I wouldn't want to get a penalty for "jaw"-ing at the Giants about the play, AND I know he sprang up REALLY quick--Defiant-like--so maybe alot of players didn't EVEN "see" the hit. I'm just wondering if the teams' heart is REALLY w/Josh?? Comments/imnsights?? I didn't see ANY support from his teammates on the TV screen.

 

[kerouac9]

Need some help here guys. I was watching it on satellite so you only get certain camera "angles" but AFTER the "hit", which could've easily broken his neck, DID Cardinal players rush to his side to make sure he was okay?? Now, I wouldn't want to get a penalty for "jaw"-ing at the Giants about the play, AND I know he sprang up REALLY quick--Defiant-like--so maybe alot of players didn't EVEN "see" the hit. I'm just wondering if the teams' heart is REALLY w/Josh?? Comments/imnsights?? I didn't see ANY support from his teammates on the TV screen.

Hey, I've been saying this since the Pats game when no one stepped up to help him after Rodney Harrison creamed him on the sideline.

I don't know if anyone believes in Josh McCown at this point besides Dennis Green.

 

[Russ Smith]

Hey, I've been saying this since the Pats game when no one stepped up to help him after Rodney Harrison creamed him on the sideline.

I don't know if anyone believes in Josh McCown at this point besides Dennis Green.

Here it was different though, Josh got back up quickly, and it was a clean hit, hard yes, but Josh was fair game out of the pocket they even picked up the penalty flag, and the DB came out worse than josh.

Now if his teammates had spun him around in circles, blindfolded him, and pointed him to the sideline while yelling "red rover red rover send Shaun King on over" I think we would know there was a problem.

My gut tells me the guys on the team are not exactly convinced Josh is the answer of course, but I'm fairly certain if someone takes a cheap shot at him, they'll stand up for him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

McCown is frustrated? Gimme a break. I think he was blown away with the Fitz throw and couldn't believe he was that open. The Williams pass, if he had to reach way behind him stop and go back to the ball, i'd give it to you. that one is all Williams. The B.J. one I didn't see. The Boldin one was a rocket. There were alot of could have been plays in that game that didn't have anything to do with McCown. Is he missing some people, yup, wide open at that. BUT, no turn overs, sacked once. Could have been sacked four times, at least. Bottom line, he managed the game, didn't lose it for us, and WE WON!! King is NOT going to start as long as Josh 1) makes plays when we need them (he does), 2) doesn't turn it over ( he doesn't) and 3) doesn't fumble. I didn't hear anything about frustarted receivers when he hit 13 in a row and spread it around. I'm just not buying into this one.

i swear, either you're related to josh or he's got some good pics of you. he was NOTHING today. not saying he stunk, but man, other than one run, he was nada. 90 yards against an injured defense at home. gimme a break.

 

[Cheesebeef]

i swear, either you're related to josh or he's got some good pics of you. he was NOTHING today. not saying he stunk, but man, other than one run, he was nada. 90 yards against an injured defense at home. gimme a break.

I think he's said before that he knows Josh personally. I love jstdvl's passion for the team , but anything he says about Josh needs to be taken with a BAG of salt.

 

[AZCARDINALS4EVA]

Is McCown the answer?

Im really starting to get frustrated with Josh. I know we are winning these games and hes not forcing turnovers or anything like that but what if we brought someone in like a Brad Johnson or some other veteran with our 3 reciever tandem, would we be better, wouldnt you think? Im not sure though, i do want josh to succeed and be our franchise qb and i do not want to start over with another qb drafting and take another 3 years to develope him but with greens track record in Minnesota it shows that he drafted Cullpeper and went with Cunningham. As long as Josh is not creating turnovers im fine with him but dont except us to win anymore games with those passes being overthrown and only having 90 passing yards.
GO CARDS!

 

[kerouac9]

My gut tells me the guys on the team are not exactly convinced Josh is the answer of course, but I'm fairly certain if someone takes a cheap shot at him, they'll stand up for him.

That'd be more convincing if someone hadn't already taken a cheap shot at him (Rodney Harrison) and no one stepped up. I'm just mini-excited for the enevitable-seeming sideline blowup between Quan/Fitz and Josh after he lays one of them out over the middle (again) in the next two or three games. I think it's one of the ways that Green knows that the team is buying into his system of accountability and the program in general.

All I know is that this team isn't going to be winning five more games to get to the playoffs if Josh's performances don't improve dramatically.

 

[Russ Smith]

That'd be more convincing if someone hadn't already taken a cheap shot at him (Rodney Harrison) and no one stepped up. I'm just mini-excited for the enevitable-seeming sideline blowup between Quan/Fitz and Josh after he lays one of them out over the middle (again) in the next two or three games. I think it's one of the ways that Green knows that the team is buying into his system of accountability and the program in general.

All I know is that this team isn't going to be winning five more games to get to the playoffs if Josh's performances don't improve dramatically.

That didn't really happen LAST year in Sullivan's system of throwing over the middle so often that Blake and Josh were consistently getting their WR's heads knocked off. Not saying it won't happen, jus that I don't recall Quan getting mad about it last year either. I do know the Leon stuff came out and that may have had something to do with that.

I agree, Josh HAS to play better to make the playoffs and I've said it for weeks, I really believe if King had been starting we'd be 5-4 or 6-3 right now and I'm not a big King believer, I just think the King I saw in Tampa was a better QB than Josh is, that he at least understands WHEN and WHERE to throw the ball, he may not have the arm to always get the ball there, and he may not be as tall or as fast as Josh, but I do believe in the end having a guy who gets the ball out quickly and to the right location, will go a long way in helping the OL clear holes on run plays and keep a pocket on pass plays. I think the OL stinks, but would stink LESS, if the QB were more experienced.

 

[kerouac9]

That didn't really happen LAST year in Sullivan's system of throwing over the middle so often that Blake and Josh were consistently getting their WR's heads knocked off. Not saying it won't happen, jus that I don't recall Quan getting mad about it last year either. I do know the Leon stuff came out and that may have had something to do with that.

I agree, Josh HAS to play better to make the playoffs and I've said it for weeks, I really believe if King had been starting we'd be 5-4 or 6-3 right now and I'm not a big King believer, I just think the King I saw in Tampa was a better QB than Josh is, that he at least understands WHEN and WHERE to throw the ball, he may not have the arm to always get the ball there, and he may not be as tall or as fast as Josh, but I do believe in the end having a guy who gets the ball out quickly and to the right location, will go a long way in helping the OL clear holes on run plays and keep a pocket on pass plays. I think the OL stinks, but would stink LESS, if the QB were more experienced.

It didn't happen last year, but Anquan was able to catch the ball, move the chains, and have the best rookie season in history, as well. Now, he's laying guys out, flat leading them into safeties, and not giving guys a chance to get the ball, because it ends up all over the place. Also, because we were behind all the time, there were lots of opportunities to get the ball. With the games close all the time (knock on wood) there are fewer balls to go around, and the WRs have to make the most of their opportunities. Josh isn't giving them much of an opportunity, especially when he throws the deep balls three yards out of bounds.

Quan's playing for a new contract right now. That's the long and the short of it. Josh is costing him money. Last season, Quan was playing to prove himself. Now, it's about dollars. How many thousands of his dollars is Quan going to let Josh throw away with bad passes before there's a blowup? It's the same with Fitz; there are a lot of escalator clauses in that contract.

On a side note: are you feeling better about Bryant Johnson now? I really think that he's ahead of schedule in his development. I don't think he'll be special, but I do think he'll be solid. He's definitely not the "blown pick" that Skkorp declared him weeks ago.

 

[Russ Smith]

It didn't happen last year, but Anquan was able to catch the ball, move the chains, and have the best rookie season in history, as well. Now, he's laying guys out, flat leading them into safeties, and not giving guys a chance to get the ball, because it ends up all over the place. Also, because we were behind all the time, there were lots of opportunities to get the ball. With the games close all the time (knock on wood) there are fewer balls to go around, and the WRs have to make the most of their opportunities. Josh isn't giving them much of an opportunity, especially when he throws the deep balls three yards out of bounds.

Quan's playing for a new contract right now. That's the long and the short of it. Josh is costing him money. Last season, Quan was playing to prove himself. Now, it's about dollars. How many thousands of his dollars is Quan going to let Josh throw away with bad passes before there's a blowup? It's the same with Fitz; there are a lot of escalator clauses in that contract.

On a side note: are you feeling better about Bryant Johnson now? I really think that he's ahead of schedule in his development. I don't think he'll be special, but I do think he'll be solid. He's definitely not the "blown pick" that Skkorp declared him weeks ago.

Actually yes, after Sunday I came away MUCH more impressed with Johnson, he seems to have figured out he DOES belong in the NFL, and that he's willing to do what it takes to succeed. He's averaging under 10 YPC but I think that's not really on him it's a function of the offense right now, we dont' throw downfield enough, or well enough, guys catching the ball underneath can't get YAC because the throw is either off, or there's someone sitting there waiting on them.

I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, Quan is playing for a contract and absolutely is being hurt in the wallet by Josh right now. I think Quan is also playing for the team and hopefully if there is a problem, he'll bring it up in the appropriate place and time. Remember I'm the one who started bringing up early on how dramatically QUan's numbers changed when Blake got benched last year.

I've made no secret of my opinion, I think if Green hadn't decided he had to get rid of Blake, and had opened up the QB competition, Blake would be our QB right now, we'd be 6-3, in first place, and people would be saying remember how bad Blake looked last year for Sullivan and how much better he looks now under Green?

You take a guy like Fitz over a QB or defensive player you do it so that you can throw the ball, we're ahead of only Chicago and Baltimore in passing yards per game, and if you take away Emmit's TD pass only those same 2 and the Jets have as few or less TD passes than we do(7, 6 without Emmitt).
We are not a Dennis Green offense and the primary reason why is we can't throw the ball.

 

[kerouac9]

Actually yes, after Sunday I came away MUCH more impressed with Johnson, he seems to have figured out he DOES belong in the NFL, and that he's willing to do what it takes to succeed. He's averaging under 10 YPC but I think that's not really on him it's a function of the offense right now, we dont' throw downfield enough, or well enough, guys catching the ball underneath can't get YAC because the throw is either off, or there's someone sitting there waiting on them.

I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, Quan is playing for a contract and absolutely is being hurt in the wallet by Josh right now. I think Quan is also playing for the team and hopefully if there is a problem, he'll bring it up in the appropriate place and time. Remember I'm the one who started bringing up early on how dramatically QUan's numbers changed when Blake got benched last year.

I've made no secret of my opinion, I think if Green hadn't decided he had to get rid of Blake, and had opened up the QB competition, Blake would be our QB right now, we'd be 6-3, in first place, and people would be saying remember how bad Blake looked last year for Sullivan and how much better he looks now under Green?

You take a guy like Fitz over a QB or defensive player you do it so that you can throw the ball, we're ahead of only Chicago and Baltimore in passing yards per game, and if you take away Emmit's TD pass only those same 2 and the Jets have as few or less TD passes than we do(7, 6 without Emmitt).
We are not a Dennis Green offense and the primary reason why is we can't throw the ball.

On ESPN Page 2's Snap Judgement one of the guys from FootballOutsiders.com does a ranking of the week's QB performances, along with a little descriptive tag. I don't think Josh McCown has yet busted the top 10 or maybe even 15 on the list. This week's comment was "I don't think that Arizona drafted all three speedy receivers high to average 8 yards per catch," or something along those lines. No one is getting the ball so they can run with it. We're talking about the same thing here; don't think I'm arguing with you.

 

[conraddobler]

Geez by reading all these Josh comments one would think we lost the game and DG was a blithering idiot because he refuses to sit Josh.

I said it before and I'll say it again and again and again. DG has earned, that's right earned, the right to play who he wants when he wants where he wants.

To believe that a man who designed one of the best offenses in the NFL, who will cut anyone, who has already made a horrible franchise at least semi feared, who watches actual game film, that is film none of us see or will see and still trots Josh out there just on an ego trip is ridiculous.

Josh unless he screws up bad is getting this year to try out.

I wish people would realize that DG isn't going to suddenly have an epiphany because of your constant grumbling. He has it FRELLING UNDER CONTROL.

This Josh bashing is frankly nauseating. It just goes on and on and on and on. The dude will be out of your hair after this year if he dosen't perform.

QB's don't learn all that fast all the time. DG is just trying him out and he proved over the years he has no problem switching QB's every year.

This freaking subject is bordering on absurd.

 

[Pariah]

It's a real statement of how bad the Cardinals have been that many fans are satisfied--nay, "happy"--with being 4-5. It's a lot of people's opinion that we could have at least one more win under our belt with different guy under center.

 

[kerouac9]

Geez by reading all these Josh comments one would think we lost the game and DG was a blithering idiot because he refuses to sit Josh.

I said it before and I'll say it again and again and again. DG has earned, that's right earned, the right to play who he wants when he wants where he wants.

To believe that a man who designed one of the best offenses in the NFL, who will cut anyone, who has already made a horrible franchise at least semi feared, who watches actual game film, that is film none of us see or will see and still trots Josh out there just on an ego trip is ridiculous.

Josh unless he screws up bad is getting this year to try out.

I wish people would realize that DG isn't going to suddenly have an epiphany because of your constant grumbling. He has it FRELLING UNDER CONTROL.

This Josh bashing is frankly nauseating. It just goes on and on and on and on. The dude will be out of your hair after this year if he dosen't perform.

QB's don't learn all that fast all the time. DG is just trying him out and he proved over the years he has no problem switching QB's every year.

This freaking subject is bordering on absurd.

Then don't read it, Conrad! Seriously, it's pretty obvious that this team is winning despite Josh McCown, not because of him. I trust Denny, and believe him when he says that this is a playoff team. I'm just not sure that we can win in the playoffs with Josh McCown playing like he is.

All we're doing is pointing out the problems that he has throwing the ball, and that the WRs are going to end up frustrated with him, if they're not already. Just because we notched a "W" doesn't mean that everything's beer and skittles. That was the lesson of the Dave McGinnis regime. You have to keep getting better every week, win or lose. I think the problem is that every part of the team keeps getting better week to week, except the guy taking the snaps from under center.

Josh McCown has had three years to learn the NFL game. I just don't want to flush a possible playoff berth down the toilet because he can't figure out how to throw the ball so a guy can catch it in stride.