With the 4th pick, the Phoenix Suns Select

[AzStevenCal]

I haven't seen much footage of him so it's hard to make my own decision - and from what I've seen i'm also sceptical - but the scouting report was pretty certain he's a goldmine, so at this stage it's a case of saying who am I to disagree.

Whoever we get, either Chriss or bender, we're hardly competing for the playoffs next year so we gamble on one or the other, they don't pay off, we go again next year.

They're both risks but they both have huge upsides - and we take Ellenson or Sabonis as insurance.

If the west is again like it was this past season it won't take much to lift us into the playoffs, or at least the playoff race. No future once we get there but getting there isn't much of a long shot.

 

[slinslin]

Outside of the top 4 the West is wide open next year. (GSW, OKC, SAS and LAC)

I see no reason why we would not try to make the playoffs. Dallas made the playoffs and their roster looks a lot worse than ours if healthy.

Dallas, Portland, Houston, Memphis are not far away.

 

[Chaplin]

According to David Pick (European Woj), Bender is working out with only the Celtics, Suns and TWolves.

 

[Covert Rain]

If the west is again like it was this past season it won't take much to lift us into the playoffs, or at least the playoff race. No future once we get there but getting there isn't much of a long shot.

It won't matter anyway. Even if we get in the playoffs it will be a one and done scenario. As fans, we just have to be more patient barring a mega trade.

 

[3rdside]

As it currently stands if Bledsoe goes down it's the Knight show...no prizes for guessing where that takes us.

Even with Bledsoe, if we draft the wrong PF then we don't have one at all; we're questionable at SF and, I hate to say it, probably at C as well.

That doesn't scream playoffs.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It won't matter anyway. Even if we get in the playoffs it will be a one and done scenario. As fans, we just have to be more patient barring a mega trade.

Yeah, that's what I said. As for patient, it's not really the fans although it's pretty obvious most of them have long since lost patience. But the problem is that Sarver isn't likely willing to let this be a slow rebuild, I suspect we'll try everything (hopefully, within reason) to get back in the playoffs this upcoming season.

I'd prefer the slow and steady approach but I'm okay with aiming for the playoffs even if it's with a very flawed team. Just as long as we don't mortgage our future to get us into that race. Right now those Miami picks look to have real value in a few years, I'm going to be very disappointed if we give them away in trade for a player that isn't going to drastically alter our profile.

Good health and upgrades at the forward spots (even if we just upgrade to average) will likely put us in the middle of the pack of playoff teams but that's a long ways from competing with GS and OKC. We could tank again and roll the dice on a chance for someone like Giles but as history shows (and his history specifically), you never know how injuries will derail that kind of player. The kid is no doubt a phenomenon at 18 but he's suffered 2 major knee injuries already.

 

[Covert Rain]

Yeah, that's what I said. As for patient, it's not really the fans although it's pretty obvious most of them have long since lost patience. But the problem is that Sarver isn't likely willing to let this be a slow rebuild, I suspect we'll try everything (hopefully, within reason) to get back in the playoffs this upcoming season.

I'd prefer the slow and steady approach but I'm okay with aiming for the playoffs even if it's with a very flawed team. Just as long as we don't mortgage our future to get us into that race. Right now those Miami picks look to have real value in a few years, I'm going to be very disappointed if we give them away in trade for a player that isn't going to drastically alter our profile.

Good health and upgrades at the forward spots (even if we just upgrade to average) will likely put us in the middle of the pack of playoff teams but that's a long ways from competing with GS and OKC. We could tank again and roll the dice on a chance for someone like Giles but as history shows (and his history specifically), you never know how injuries will derail that kind of player. The kid is no doubt a phenomenon at 18 but he's suffered 2 major knee injuries already.

It's funny because Sarver doesn't want a slow rebuild but that is exactly where this is headed. We are going to see a slow rise back up to mediocrity simply because this team can't stomach bottoming out. We will eventually become that team again that puts up wins that ultimately are empty. Rinse..repeat.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's funny because Sarver doesn't want a slow rebuild but that is exactly where this is headed. We are going to see a slow rise back up to mediocrity simply because this team can't stomach bottoming out. We will eventually become that team again that puts up wins that ultimately are empty. Rinse..repeat.

I don't believe we've ever been that team, I don't believe it exists.

 

[Covert Rain]

I don't believe we've ever been that team, I don't believe it exists.

We have always been that team. We have always been that team that focuses on "fun" racking up wins but ultimately doesn't really go anywhere.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We have always been that team. We have always been that team that focuses on "fun" racking up wins but ultimately doesn't really go anywhere.

I disagree. But even if you're correct, that doesn't mean they are empty wins. If you watch the games, your enjoyment has nothing to do with some moment in the future. It's only looking back that it enters the picture. I get enjoyment watching us play well.

 

[Covert Rain]

I disagree. But even if you're correct, that doesn't mean they are empty wins. If you watch the games, your enjoyment has nothing to do with some moment in the future. It's only looking back that it enters the picture. I get enjoyment watching us play well.

This franchise holds some sort of record with wins without a title. As a lifelong fan, a title is the goal. Not fielding fun teams for another 50 years so I can have short term fun watching the team. I have seen plenty of fun teams fielded by this franchise. At some point it becomes empty if there is no shot at the end game which is a title.

I have enjoyed watching plenty of games since I was a kid and attended more game that I can count. I would trade all that fun in a heartbeat for a banner hanging in the rafters. That's just me though.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This franchise holds some sort of record with wins without a title. As a lifelong fan, a title is the goal. Not fielding fun teams for another 50 years so I can have short term fun watching the team. I have seen plenty of fun teams fielded by this franchise. At some point it becomes empty if there is no shot at the end game which is a title.

I have enjoyed watching plenty of games since I was a kid and attended more game that I can count. I would trade all that fun in a heartbeat for a banner hanging in the rafters. That's just me though.

It's your opinion so obviously you have a right to it but guess what, I still think you're wrong. I've watched it play out too many times. You think that title will really mean something? It just doesn't, your life goes on as it was before. You don't walk a little taller or laugh a little harder, love a little better or live life a little fuller. It's great and yet it's meaningless.

Go ask Portland fans if they'd be fine sucking every season since they won a championship almost 40 years ago? It does nothing for them. It's cliche but life is a journey and time is linear, so you enjoy your moments and the things that happen in the future can't change the things that happened in the past. The Hawks haven't won a title since the late 50's and I'd bet that title reassures very few of their fans.

 

[Covert Rain]

It's your opinion so obviously you have a right to it but guess what, I still think you're wrong. I've watched it play out too many times. You think that title will really mean something? It just doesn't, your life goes on as it was before. You don't walk a little taller or laugh a little harder, love a little better or live life a little fuller. It's great and yet it's meaningless.

Go ask Portland fans if they'd be fine sucking every season since they won a championship almost 40 years ago? It does nothing for them. It's cliche but life is a journey and time is linear, so you enjoy your moments and the things that happen in the future can't change the things that happened in the past. The Hawks haven't won a title since the late 50's and I'd bet that title reassures very few of their fans.

LOL...that's OK...cause I think your wrong. Actually I know a Portland fan and I will guarantee he wouldn't trade that title for anything. I bet in the short term he wishes the team was doing better but ask a Portland fan if they would trade short team success an exchange for pulling that banner down. Most would tell you hell no.

 

[Phrazbit]

LOL...that's OK...cause I think your wrong. Actually I know a Portland fan and I will guarantee he wouldn't trade that title for anything. I bet in the short term he wishes the team was doing better but ask a Portland fan if they would trade short team success an exchange for pulling that banner down. Most would tell you hell no.

Yeah, but that Portland fan has still enjoyed a LOT of good Blazer basketball since that title, which has kept the fan base engaged. They haven't had any long runs of true futility.

Ask a Milwaukee resident, under say... 50, if they swap that dusty old banner for a team that was competitive and engaging over the last 30 years. I expect the answer might be "Who are the Bucks?"

 

[Covert Rain]

Yeah, but that Portland fan has still enjoyed a LOT of good Blazer basketball since that title, which has kept the fan base engaged. They haven't had any long runs of true futility.

Ask a Milwaukee resident, under say... 50, if they swap that dusty old banner for a team that was competitive and engaging over the last 30 years. I expect the answer might be "Who are the Bucks?"

Yet in 30 years if the Suns still don't have a banner and you were talking to NBA fans in general...see what would happen if you mentioned the Suns. You would probably get a collective..."fffffftt".

 

[AzStevenCal]

LOL...that's OK...cause I think your wrong. Actually I know a Portland fan and I will guarantee he wouldn't trade that title for anything. I bet in the short term he wishes the team was doing better but ask a Portland fan if they would trade short team success an exchange for pulling that banner down. Most would tell you hell no.

Go read a Lakers forum or a Blazers forum. They complain and whine about their seasons just like we do. They revel in the victories and bemoan the losses just like we do. Knowing they won a title a few years ago or 40 years ago doesn't soften it when they get their butts kicked. It's nice to have especially if you're talking smack with a fan from a team that's had less success but like I said, it doesn't change the win and loss moments as they happen. Nothing does.

I invest an awful lot of time watching the Suns, I'd be miserable if we were a boring team and just barely made the playoffs and then somehow lucked into a championship. I'd love the title but it wouldn't go back and improve those 82 nights that I sat in front of the TV and watched a boring or disappointing product.

But another part of what we disagree on is the idea of how it's done. I don't believe you build a championship team. You build a team capable of winning it all but fortune has a lot to do with whether you actually win that championship. Golden State did a lot of things right to get where they are but what if Curry's health issues evolved like Amare's did? Or what if Jordan's knees went the Derrick Rose route? We have built several teams capable of winning championships, we just didn't have the luck we needed. We lost the Danny Manning's, Joe Johnson's and so on at the wrong time.

 

[slinslin]

Yeah, but that Portland fan has still enjoyed a LOT of good Blazer basketball since that title, which has kept the fan base engaged. They haven't had any long runs of true futility.

Ask a Milwaukee resident, under say... 50, if they swap that dusty old banner for a team that was competitive and engaging over the last 30 years. I expect the answer might be "Who are the Bucks?"

Have they even won a playoff series since the Trailblazer days?

 

[Covert Rain]

Go read a Lakers forum or a Blazers forum. They complain and whine about their seasons just like we do. They revel in the victories and bemoan the losses just like we do. Knowing they won a title a few years ago or 40 years ago doesn't soften it when they get their butts kicked. It's nice to have especially if you're talking smack with a fan from a team that's had less success but like I said, it doesn't change the win and loss moments as they happen. Nothing does.

I invest an awful lot of time watching the Suns, I'd be miserable if we were a boring team and just barely made the playoffs and then somehow lucked into a championship. I'd love the title but it wouldn't go back and improve those 82 nights that I sat in front of the TV and watched a boring or disappointing product.

But another part of what we disagree on is the idea of how it's done. I don't believe you build a championship team. You build a team capable of winning it all but fortune has a lot to do with whether you actually win that championship. Golden State did a lot of things right to get where they are but what if Curry's health issues evolved like Amare's did? Or what if Jordan's knees went the Derrick Rose route? We have built several teams capable of winning championships, we just didn't have the luck we needed. We lost the Danny Manning's, Joe Johnson's and so on at the wrong time.

I don't disagree per say with what your saying but you still are talking short term type reaction. My dad is a Lakers fan and they went through some pretty lean years. Eventually they got back there. Those lean years seem like a blip now. Could you imagine trading away the banners just to get a few short term wins or field a "fun" team during those lean years? That's simply crazy talk.

Actually we don't disagree on how to build a title team. I never said bottoming out was the only way. I am saying it's the only way right now. I do not believe this team can land a LeBron level talent in FA. I do not believe we can pull of a trade of that magnitude either. That means building your franchise through the draft. Sure luck is involved but so is some level of competency in the front office/ownership.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't disagree per say with what your saying but you still are talking short term type reaction. My dad is a Lakers fan and they went through some pretty lean years. Eventually they got back there. Those lean years seem like a blip now. Could you imagine trading away the banners just to get a few short term wins or field a "fun" team during those lean years? That's simply crazy talk.

Actually we don't disagree on how to build a title team. I never said bottoming out was the only way. I am saying it's the only way right now. I do not believe this team can land a LeBron level talent in FA. I do not believe we can pull of a trade of that magnitude either. That means building your franchise through the draft. Sure luck is involved but so is some level of competency in the front office/ownership.

I mentioned the part about building a championship contender to contest your suggestion that all they've ever tried to do is put together a fun team that settles for meaningless wins. I don't believe they've ever done that and I don't believe any franchise has. It's a process and there are points along the way where you might be a fun team with no real chance of succeeding, I just don't believe it's ever the goal. Nobody shoots for the 8th seed or plans to be on a treadmill. When it happens, it's either a momentary step along the way or a failure in the process (injury etc).

 

[Covert Rain]

I mentioned the part about building a championship contender to contest your suggestion that all they've ever tried to do is put together a fun team that settles for meaningless wins. I don't believe they've ever done that and I don't believe any franchise has. It's a process and there are points along the way where you might be a fun team with no real chance of succeeding, I just don't believe it's ever the goal. Nobody shoots for the 8th seed or plans to be on a treadmill. When it happens, it's either a momentary step along the way or a failure in the process (injury etc).

Here is why I don't buy that. If you look at the totality of some of the trades or FA acquisitions, the team has often followed that up with comments about trying to make the team fun again. We are going to try and make the team exciting. I think the franchise to a certain extent has been realistic about their prospects and made decisions to try and put butts in the seats. I absolutely believe this team has tried to avoid bottoming out to keep gate receipts up. Not that bottoming out is the only way to land a franchise player but it sure helps if your not afraid to go there from time to time to get a top pick.

It's not like this is High School or to some extent college. Sarver is a business man first and wants to make money. Often in professional sports, I think that sometimes trumps decisions that might help build a title contender.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's your opinion so obviously you have a right to it but guess what, I still think you're wrong. I've watched it play out too many times. You think that title will really mean something? It just doesn't, your life goes on as it was before. You don't walk a little taller or laugh a little harder, love a little better or live life a little fuller. It's great and yet it's meaningless.

Go ask Portland fans if they'd be fine sucking every season since they won a championship almost 40 years ago? It does nothing for them. It's cliche but life is a journey and time is linear, so you enjoy your moments and the things that happen in the future can't change the things that happened in the past. The Hawks haven't won a title since the late 50's and I'd bet that title reassures very few of their fans.

Hmm, I disagree. I'll never trade game 7 of the World Series with my brothers or the memories of the entire playoffs that year. It's made it much easier to stomach dbacks being mediocre since.

Ben the super bowl run was a glorious memory with my whole family. Winning it, with my pop and brothers there would have been a memory I would've never let go of.

So I disagree. It does put a pep in your step. If our Barkley Suns had defeated Jordan's bulls we would still be relishing it today.

 

[chickenhead]

I think the lack of a single title stimulates a lot of mistaken assumptions in this discussion. It's fine if you'd rather have the single championship that a bunch of other teams have, but if anything you could say that a bunch of other teams have gotten lucky while the Suns have been unlucky--all within the realm of probability. The Suns running their franchise "differently" would not have guaranteed a title, just as how replaying the 48 Suns seasons with the same rosters might result in one, two, or even three championships.

There are a lot of devastating injuries and circumstances in the Suns history. Yeah, every team has them. But I don't think many "good" franchises have as many. Maybe that's just me making my own emotional evaluation, though.

 

[Covert Rain]

I think the lack of a single title stimulates a lot of mistaken assumptions in this discussion. It's fine if you'd rather have the single championship that a bunch of other teams have, but if anything you could say that a bunch of other teams have gotten lucky while the Suns have been unlucky--all within the realm of probability. The Suns running their franchise "differently" would not have guaranteed a title, just as how replaying the 48 Suns seasons with the same rosters might result in one, two, or even three championships.

There are a lot of devastating injuries and circumstances in the Suns history. Yeah, every team has them. But I don't think many "good" franchises have as many. Maybe that's just me making my own emotional evaluation, though.

I don't think people were debating the circumstances around getting there or falling short. I think the debate was really around would you trade short term excitement for a banner you already have.

Hmm, I disagree. I'll never trade game 7 of the World Series with my brothers or the memories of the entire playoffs that year. It's made it much easier to stomach dbacks being mediocre since.

This. I will never forget watching that game with my wife and newborn sitting beside us. When Gonzo made that hit...my wife and I jumped up and down screaming. Scared the crap out of the baby and went from WOOHOO to....ohhhhh...so sorry in 2.2 seconds flat. We still laugh about it today.

Trading that title, the memories of going to games that season and that series for short term gratification of having a fun D-Back team now seams crazy to me. However, that's just me.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't think people were debating the circumstances around getting there or falling short. I think the debate was really around would you trade short term excitement for a banner you already have.

No, that was never my debate or at least never my intention. I was challenging the suggestion that we didn't have a championship because we were only concerned with building fun teams. And I was arguing against the implication that the wins along the way don't matter if you don't win a title.

 

[Covert Rain]

No, that was never my debate. I was challenging the suggestion that we didn't have a championship because we were only concerned with building fun teams. And I was arguing against the implication that the wins along the way don't matter if you don't win a title.

Sorry, I was referring to some of the responses since.