WOW, Laker fans are complete morons

[Esther]

Few days ago, my office mate asked me if I think the Suns would get into a brawl a la Knicks-Nuggets, so I showed him the clip on youTube of the incident where Kwame Brown shoved Diaw to the floor and stood over him.

As I was watching it, I just don't understand how can anyone be a fan of Kwame and Kobe and not acknowledge they are low characters. Kobe actually patted Kwame on the chest to encourage him !?!? And why does the Lakers board never talk about this incident (and the one where Odom hit Barbosa sending him into the stands), but endlessly harping on Bell's clotheline? Why would anyone want to cheer for a gang like Kobe, Brown and Odom?

I remember reading a post on the Lakers blog after the series that says something like "the stronger team may have won, but the team with better character lost." HUH??

 

[LakeShowMan]

Few days ago, my office mate asked me if I think the Suns would get into a brawl a la Knicks-Nuggets, so I showed him the clip on youTube of the incident where Kwame Brown shoved Diaw to the floor and stood over him.

As I was watching it, I just don't understand how can anyone be a fan of Kwame and Kobe and not acknowledge they are low characters. Kobe actually patted Kwame on the chest to encourage him !?!? And why does the Lakers board never talk about this incident (and the one where Odom hit Barbosa sending him into the stands), but endlessly harping on Bell's clotheline? Why would anyone want to cheer for a gang like Kobe, Brown and Odom?

I remember reading a post on the Lakers blog after the series that says something like "the stronger team may have won, but the team with better character lost." HUH??

So a player is a low character guy if someone is hanging on them and they throw the person off them? Seriously?

Now if he kicked the guy, or just started punching him I could see your point. Sometimes in the heat of battle, especially playoff series, tempers flare and things happen.

 

[Esther]

So a player is a low character guy if someone is hanging on them and they throw the person off them? Seriously?

And walk over him (especially when that person choose not to retaliate)? And, in Kobe's case, after seeing your teammate do that, go and encourage it?

 

[D-Dogg]

Wow, I'm so glad it is the playoffs again...so, who wants to bet that the Suns don't sweep the Lakers?

Oh, wait.

LET. IT. GO.

You won, move on.

 

[LakeShowMan]

And walk over him (especially when that person choose not to retaliate)? And, in Kobe's case, after seeing your teammate do that, go and encourage it?

Like players on the Suns didn't support Raja when he clothslined Kobe. That is just a horrible arguement.

I have to assume that you haven't played a hotly contested athletic event, because that stuff wasn't that bad. I played in highschool and a little college ball and have seen (and been a part of) much worse incedents.

Of course if it makes you feel better to think that everyone on the Lakers are the anti-christ, then go ahead.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Like players on the Suns didn't support Raja when he clothslined Kobe. That is just a horrible arguement.

uh, I didn't see anyone slapping fives, pounding chests or slapping asses after the clothesline like Kobe did. What exactly are you referring to?

 

[LakeShowMan]

uh, I didn't see anyone slapping fives, pounding chests or slapping asses after the clothesline like Kobe did. What exactly are you referring to?

Well to be fair, what Raja did was much more egregious, even though I doubt most of you on here would agree. There was a reason that he was suspended.

Irregardless, most of the stuff that happened in that series (and yes I am including Raja's clothsline) was a born out of competitve fire and the'heat of the battle'. I think it is ridiculous to draw conclusions on people's character because of the actions.

Do any of you think less of Raja because of what he did?

Do you think less of Michael Jordan because he once choked Reggie Miller?

Do you think less of Larry Bird and Dr. J becuase they attacked each other in a game?

Do you think less of Robert Parrish because he punched Bill Lambeir in a game?

Do you think less of Kevin McHale because he clothslined Kurt Rambis in a game?

Stuff happens in sports, especially when atheletes compete atthe highest levels, and even moreso in a playoff atmosphere when things are intensified. Calling out someones character little over the top, especially when the person doing it is making decision with a biased eye.

Now if a guy beats his wife, or shoots someone in his house and tries to cover it up, or gets arrest with 6 guns at his house then gets suspended only to be at a club the next night where his buddy is shot and killed, then maybe I can see making judgements on their character. However, doing that becuase of the realtively minor stuff that happened in last years playoff series seems a little overreactionary.

 

[Esther]

LET. IT. GO.

You won, move on.

I was just talking about the incident because it came to mind while I read this thread. I was not trash talking, because it's not my personality to do that. I may not be a typical sports fan because to me winning isn't everything in sports. And it's not about moving on or letting go, its just something that happened, and if you happen to think about something in the past, you can talk about it. I have friends who are Lakers fans, and I think a little bantering is fun.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Well to be fair, what Raja did was much more egregious, even though I doubt most of you on here would agree. There was a reason that he was suspended.

Irregardless, most of the stuff that happened in that series (and yes I am including Raja's clothsline) was a born out of competitve fire and the'heat of the battle'. I think it is ridiculous to draw conclusions on people's character because of the actions.

Do any of you think less of Raja because of what he did?

Do you think less of Michael Jordan because he once choked Reggie Miller?

Do you think less of Larry Bird and Dr. J becuase they attacked each other in a game?

Do you think less of Robert Parrish because he punched Bill Lambeir in a game?

Do you think less of Kevin McHale because he clothslined Kurt Rambis in a game?

Stuff happens in sports, especially when atheletes compete atthe highest levels, and even moreso in a playoff atmosphere when things are intensified. Calling out someones character little over the top, especially when the person doing it is making decision with a biased eye.

Now if a guy beats his wife, or shoots someone in his house and tries to cover it up, or gets arrest with 6 guns at his house then gets suspended only to be at a club the next night where his buddy is shot and killed, then maybe I can see making judgements on their character. However, doing that becuase of the realtively minor stuff that happened in last years playoff series seems a little overreactionary.

What about sucker punching someone, and then running away like a sissy. What do you think about that person's character?

 

[Mulli]

If you think less of Parrish for punching Lambeer something is wrong with you. seriously.

 

[Esther]

Do any of you think less of Raja because of what he did?

Raja admitted he was wrong, so did his teammates. Kwame didn't.

 

[LakeShowMan]

What about sucker punching someone, and then running away like a sissy. What do you think about that person's character?

I am assuming you are talking abot 'Melo. I think he came of a little soft. If you are tough enough to go punch someone, you should be tough enough to stand your ground after that.

Either way, all I am trying to do is add some perspective. I know that all Suns fans hate the Lakers and probably all of the Laker's fans. Even with that, I think you can name hundreds of much more malicious stuff in sports when compared to the stuff that happened in the playoff series last year.

 

[Esther]

The point is, there is a difference between
1)being competitive
2)being thuggish
3)fighting back when you've been dissed.

It's hard to qualify which action belongs in which category except what your gut feeling tells you. But I can tell you that 2) really really turns me off. And if someone insists that what I perceive as 2) is really 1) or 3) I can't really argue, because at the end of the day, no one know what the player on the court is thinking. And the Kwame incident just happens to blatantly fall under 2) for me.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Raja admitted he was wrong, so did his teammates. Kwame didn't.

I never saw anything where Raja apologized or said he did something wrong. He said that he was sorry to his teammates because he got suspended, but I also remember him saying that he would do it again. Not exactly admitting he was wrong.

Look Esther, you obviously have your opinion on this and I am sorry I even responded to it. From my perspective you seem to be letting your allegiance in this matter cloud your rational judgement. Like I said, I don't think it is fair to make judgements on character on any of the guys involved (yes including Raja). It is part of the game, good guys make bad decision in the heat of battle. If you refuse to see any negative in a Suns player or conversely any positive in a Laker player, then lets just agree to disagree.

 

[LakeShowMan]

The point is, there is a difference between
1)being competitive
2)being thuggish
3)fighting back when you've been dissed.

It's hard to qualify which action belongs in which category except what your gut feeling tells you. But I can tell you that 2) really really turns me off. And if someone insists that what I perceive as 2) is really 1) or 3) I can't really argue, because at the end of the day, no one know what the player on the court is thinking. And the Kwame incident just happens to blatantly fall under 2) for me.

LOL. Perfect example. You say that Raja clothslining a guy in a vulnerable position is just "fighting back because he was dissed'. Yet Kwame throwing a guy that is hangin on to him is being 'thuggish'. If you were a Laker fan, I guarantee that you would have seen the exact same things completely oppositely.

Like I said, sorry I brought it up.

 

[Esther]

Yet Kwame throwing a guy that is hangin on to him is being 'thuggish'.

What bothered me was really the part that he walked over Diaw, much more the shoving part. And when Kobe make that "good job" gesture. To me that is thuggish. It has nothing to do with Suns or Lakers. If I see a player from any team do that I would think he is thuggish.

Don't be upset at me, it's just a discussion.

 

[LakeShowMan]

What bothered me was really the part that he walked over Diaw, much more the shoving part. And when Kobe make that "good job" gesture. To me that is thuggish. It has nothing to do with Suns or Lakers. If I see a player from any team do that I would think he is thuggish.

Don't be upset at me, it's just a discussion.

I am not upset with you at all. We are obviously not getting anywhere with this though and I don't want to be the person that keeps belaboring a point (if I haven't already). To each their own I guess.

 

[flying_hair]

"Defense wins championships" is the most tired sports phrase. It is even worse than "giving 110%." Good defense may be a better indicator of team success in general (not just playoffs) since defense is more consistent than offense (as less variables are involved).

A more accurate phrase would be "point differential wins championships." Doesn't roll off the tongue quite the same.

I think Mike Dantoni has a quote that he writes on the board that goes something like: "The team that played the best defense is the one who has more points at th end of the game."

 

[flying_hair]

Well to be fair, what Raja did was much more egregious, even though I doubt most of you on here would agree.

Wrong assumption.

 

[flying_hair]

I know that all Suns fans hate the Lakers and probably all of the Laker's fans.

Wrong assumption.

 

[flying_hair]

If you refuse to see any negative in a Suns player or conversely any positive in a Laker player, then lets just agree to disagree.

over-generalization.

 

[D-Dogg]

I was just talking about the incident because it came to mind while I read this thread. I was not trash talking, because it's not my personality to do that. I may not be a typical sports fan because to me winning isn't everything in sports. And it's not about moving on or letting go, its just something that happened, and if you happen to think about something in the past, you can talk about it. I have friends who are Lakers fans, and I think a little bantering is fun.

We don't agree, this discussion was the week that it happened, and its clear there isn't much of a middle ground.

You can dislike Kwame and Kobe and Odom all you want, and I can think Raja is a POS. Good. Settled.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Wrong assumption.

Not sure where me saying 'most wouldn't agree' is a wrong assumption. I was on this board after the incedent last year and MOST of the poster were defending what Raja did.

AS far as saying all Suns fans hate the Lakers, yes that may have been a wrong assumption. Although I think MOST do. Especially, if this board is represntative of the Suns fan base.

As far as an over-generalization, I am not sure how that can be the case. Esther basically said that Brown and Kobe we're being thugs, yet Raja was defending himself. If anyone was over-generalizing I don't think it was me.

Either way, I eagerly await your next two-word response.

 

[flying_hair]

Like I said, I don't think it is fair to make judgements on character on any of the guys involved (yes including Raja).

I think that, absolutely, you can be judged by your actions. Your actions are what reveal your character. Of course, it's unfair to look at one isolated incident and judge someone by that. So you look at the total picture.

Regarding Raja, I am Suns fan and I think what Raja did to Kobe was wrong. I think it was terrible because it was very dangerous. Did Raja actually apologize to Kobe? He did not, but he knows it was stupid. His teammates know it was stupid. They supported him as their teammate, they did not support what he did. There are other things Raja does that I don't like such as flopping or getting easily chippy but I still like him as a person. He plays hard, he's honest, I like his personality, and seems like a good teammate as well as a family guy.

 

[Esther]

You can dislike Kwame and Kobe and Odom all you want, and I can think Raja is a POS.

I don't hate Kobe and Kwame. I hate their behaviors. I wasn't looking for a middle ground, but I was hoping we can have some deeper discussion about sports than who wins and who hates who.