10 thoughts - training camp

[Krangodnzr]

Dude. Look at the defense again.

Also, I know that JG has managed to influence Michael Bidwill, but isn't it a little possible that this guy's act wears a little thin when we start 1-11?

I'm not saying it's not possible. We don't know.

 

[Krangodnzr]

No. Krang is saying that Kliff couldn't manage players or scheme -- that's what I heard, anyway.

I said he couldnt manage personalities. Kliff can scheme.

He thinks that Gannon and this staff can manage/motivate players and scheme well enough to have similar or better results in 2023 as in 2022.

Maybe. I think this years team is going to be bad for what's it's worth.

I think that message is going to be pretty hollow if you stink. If you're losing a bunch of games at the final whistle.

Maybe, who knows. I'm not in the locker room and most reporting so far sounds like the players are buying in.

 

[DaHilg]

I said he couldnt manage personalities. Kliff can scheme.

Maybe. I think this years team is going to be bad for what's it's worth.

Maybe, who knows. I'm not in the locker room and most reporting so far sounds like the players are buying in.

Woah - Kliff can scheme ? Wtf are you watching bro? He definitely can not scheme, had zero creativity and zero desire to adapt… all qualities of scheming. That is the wildest comment I’ve seen on here in 2023. I hope your definition of scheme is an inaccurate one. My mind is blown by that comment.

 

[HairZach]

Woah - Kliff can scheme ? Wtf are you watching bro? He definitely can not scheme, had zero creativity and zero desire to adapt… all qualities of scheming. That is the wildest comment I’ve seen on here in 2023. I hope your definition of scheme is an inaccurate one. My mind is blown by that comment.

The base offense was largely the same, we never switched to a run based under center offense, but there were tweaks throughout Kliff's tenure. Year 1 was a ton more 10 personnel, like an unheard of amount. Year 2 incorporated more designed Kyler runs and less 10 personnel. Year 3 had a lot more TE use, we firmly committed to 11 and 12 personnel. Our trick plays had a very high success rate too. If he changed nothing it wouldn't have taken the NFL 3 years to shut it down.

Some analysts thought the problem with our offense was defenses figured out that Kyler was awful at throwing in the middle of the field. Once defenses learned to stop giving Kyler one on ones downfield and clamped down on the short stuff, forcing Kyler to throw to the middle, the whole offense fell apart. Defenses realized that Kyler wasn't going throw it there most of time, or if he did that the drive would stall. After that the whole offense became very predictable. It was a game over. Kliff either had to make Kyler better over the middle or he had to reinvent the offense and he couldn't. This narrative isn't really complete. Obviously the offense was too simple and needed better run plays. (Screens to Rondale don't count as run plays Kliff!)

The hope is that Kliff being bad at motivating players and not running intense enough practices is what was holding Kyler back. That maybe Kyler can be good throwing or the middle. Or that maybe a play action run based offense can take things off Kyler's shoulders and allow him to be more like prime Russell Wilson. Kill em deep while they are defending the run.

I am a bit worried about our new offense. Deshuan Watson has the same problem as Kyler with throwing over the middle and the Cleaveland offense (which I assume Petzig is going to run) forced Watson to throw over the middle a lot, and he was terrible at it last year. Maybe it was just the rust from not playing for two years that kept Watson down; but it does make me worry that we are going to force Kyler to throw over the middle a lot and he won't be able to do it.

 

[DaHilg]

The base offense was largely the same, we never switched to a run based under center offense, but there were tweaks throughout Kliff's tenure. Year 1 was a ton more 10 personnel, like an unheard of amount. Year 2 incorporated more designed Kyler runs and less 10 personnel. Year 3 had a lot more TE use, we firmly committed to 11 and 12 personnel. Our trick plays had a very high success rate too. If he changed nothing it wouldn't have taken the NFL 3 years to shut it down.

Some analysts thought the problem with our offense was defenses figured out that Kyler was awful at throwing in the middle of the field. Once defenses learned to stop giving Kyler one on ones downfield and clamped down on the short stuff, forcing Kyler to throw to the middle, the whole offense fell apart. Defenses realized that Kyler wasn't going throw it there most of time, or if he did that the drive would stall. After that the whole offense became very predictable. It was a game over. Kliff either had to make Kyler better over the middle or he had to reinvent the offense and he couldn't. This narrative isn't really complete. Obviously the offense was too simple and needed better run plays. (Screens to Rondale don't count as run plays Kliff!)

The hope is that Kliff being bad at motivating players and not running intense enough practices is what was holding Kyler back. That maybe Kyler can be good throwing or the middle. Or that maybe a play action run based offense can take things off Kyler's shoulders and allow him to be more like prime Russell Wilson. Kill em deep while they are defending the run.

I am a bit worried about our new offense. Deshuan Watson has the same problem as Kyler with throwing over the middle and the Cleaveland offense (which I assume Petzig is going to run) forced Watson to throw over the middle a lot, and he was terrible at it last year. Maybe it was just the rust from not playing for two years that kept Watson down; but it does make me worry that we are going to force Kyler to throw over the middle a lot and he won't be able to do it.

Hard to read through this post with how wildly inaccurate (although your writing was well thought out - a long post doesn’t equal an educated thought.).

Do yourself a favor - go look at the routes ran game by game of our #1 WR. Go look at the amount of pre motion snap. Go look at the number of QB roll-outs for perhaps the fastest QB in the NFL… go look at any competency of adopting the practices of the top offensive schemes in the NFL. Cmon - what are we doing here ? There’s a reason why no one wanted this guy in the nfl before his hire and after his hire. Any defense of Kliffy loses credibility immediately- the same guys coming to his defense are the same guys going against REAL analysts through 8 games last season. The same guys going against this are ignoring the above points, when doing research they will see is factual.

 

[Dan H]

You’re failing to mention that we didn’t just ”get rid” of players from a 4-13 team. They had to be re-signed to contracts that may or may not fit into the direction this team will take moving forward. Not only were Allen & Murphy injury prone, but they would come with a sticker price that wasn’t conducive. They would do us no good if they’re spending as much time in the training room moving forward as they have in the past.

Monti and JG were brought in to create a better system of scouting talent, developing talent, emphasizing winning behaviors, and keeping talent to create sustainable success. Hence, a new scouting department, a significantly larger emphasis on accountability, and a coaching staff that will no doubt be better at player development than what we had with KK/VJ. impossible to turn a franchise around in one offseason, but MOJG are laying a foundation that is far more likely to produce sustainable success than any plan I’ve seen in the 60 years that I’ve followed this franchise. Whine if you want, but 2023 is just the beginning.

I tend to generally agree but I will be curious to see how injury prone they are in their new digs. Was our poor training room a hindrance?

 

[WisconsinCard]

azcardinals.com/team/staff

At a minimum half of the Player Personnel staff is the same as prior to Ossenfort's hire.
Quentin Harris - VP Player Personnel
Dru Grigson - Director Player Personnel
Josh Scobey - Director College Scouting
Ryan Gold - Assistant Director College Scouting
Chris Culver - Western Regional Scout
Luke Palko - Eastern Regional Scout
Zac Candy - Central Regional Scout
and at least a handful more guys all holdovers from previous regime.

It's always been only fan assumption(s) that the scouting dept would be overhauled. I hoped that would be the case, but as clear as I can discern from those I remember, nearly everyone in Player Personnel has been retained, especially in the top positions. To me this doesn't bode well. . .

How do we even know if scouting was the real issue? It could be that SK didn't understand how to process the data being shared with him, or that he didn't listen and drafted who he wanted to.

 

[CardNots]

How do we even know if scouting was the real issue? It could be that SK didn't understand how to process the data being shared with him, or that he didn't listen and drafted who he wanted to.

Also how he integrated his coaches input and were those coaches heavily involved in the scouting report.

 

[BulldogCard]

Dude. Look at the defense again.

Also, I know that JG has managed to influence Michael Bidwill, but isn't it a little possible that this guy's act wears a little thin when we start 1-11?

Clayton Tune arrives

Agree. Hard to fathom it, but I won’t be surprised at all if someone on the Cardinals, and I don’t know who, will get double digit sacks. Not that we’re overly talented in that area, but it’s what a Gannon D is developed and taught to do.

That double digit emerges on preseason, Noone sees him coming..

 

[Krangodnzr]

Hard to read through this post with how wildly inaccurate (although your writing was well thought out - a long post doesn’t equal an educated thought.).

Do yourself a favor - go look at the routes ran game by game of our #1 WR. Go look at the amount of pre motion snap. Go look at the number of QB roll-outs for perhaps the fastest QB in the NFL… go look at any competency of adopting the practices of the top offensive schemes in the NFL. Cmon - what are we doing here ? There’s a reason why no one wanted this guy in the nfl before his hire and after his hire. Any defense of Kliffy loses credibility immediately- the same guys coming to his defense are the same guys going against REAL analysts through 8 games last season. The same guys going against this are ignoring the above points, when doing research they will see is factual.

Murray was nearly the worst deep ball throwers and middle of the field throwers in the NFL last year. Get over the man love and look at objective facts.

 

[PACardsFan]

Murray was nearly the worst deep ball throwers and middle of the field throwers in the NFL last year. Get over the man love and look at objective facts.

Historically, Murray is a phenomenal deep ball thrower, so I’m not concerned at all that he’ll rebound a ton in that area. I think the wrist injury from training camp got him off to a slow start, then the combination of Hop out, then Hollywood out, and the pathetic OL play didn’t help either. Prior to last year, he was a top 5 deep ball thrower his first 3 seasons. IMO, that reflects more on his ability in that area than a fluke riddled season last year.

 

[FB94]

Woah - Kliff can scheme ? Wtf are you watching bro? He definitely can not scheme, had zero creativity and zero desire to adapt… all qualities of scheming. That is the wildest comment I’ve seen on here in 2023. I hope your definition of scheme is an inaccurate one. My mind is blown by that comment.

If you call scheming a wr screen first play of the game ok!! It’s almost like he calls the WR screen first play like the WR is one catch away from a reception bonus.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Historically, Murray is a phenomenal deep ball thrower, so I’m not concerned at all that he’ll rebound a ton in that area. I think the wrist injury from training camp got him off to a slow start, then the combination of Hop out, then Hollywood out, and the pathetic OL play didn’t help either. Prior to last year, he was a top 5 deep ball thrower his first 3 seasons. IMO, that reflects more on his ability in that area than a fluke riddled season last year.

Cool, but he still has been one of the worst throwers to the middle. He has improvement to make, but I won't bet against him.

 

[urs]

Hard to read through this post with how wildly inaccurate (although your writing was well thought out - a long post doesn’t equal an educated thought.).

Do yourself a favor - go look at the routes ran game by game of our #1 WR. Go look at the amount of pre motion snap. Go look at the number of QB roll-outs for perhaps the fastest QB in the NFL… go look at any competency of adopting the practices of the top offensive schemes in the NFL. Cmon - what are we doing here ? There’s a reason why no one wanted this guy in the nfl before his hire and after his hire. Any defense of Kliffy loses credibility immediately- the same guys coming to his defense are the same guys going against REAL analysts through 8 games last season. The same guys going against this are ignoring the above points, when doing research they will see is factual.

100% accurate

 

[FB94]

I have zero expectations this year. Basically just don’t look like the worst team in football by a mile. Really set my sights on 2024/2025 draft, salary cap in a much better spot, and making substantial leaps on the field with sustained ability to compete for division title etc…

 

[DaHilg]

I have zero expectations this year. Basically just don’t look like the worst team in football by a mile. Really set my sights on 2024/2025 draft, salary cap in a much better spot, and making substantial leaps on the field with sustained ability to compete for division title etc…

I agree - but it stinks to have a rebuild year when the NFC is perhaps the weakest it’s ever been… our division outside of the Dlines of SF and Rams isn’t intimidating imo.

 

[Stout]

I agree - but it stinks to have a rebuild year when the NFC is perhaps the weakest it’s ever been… our division outside of the Dlines of SF and Rams isn’t intimidating imo.

A rebuild two years...minimum.

 

[DaHilg]

Sure looks

A rebuild two years...minimum.

sure looks like it.. but again it stinks when the best QB in the entire NFC is who? Really aren’t any stars. Dak and Cousins will never win anything.. Hurts was more so a factor of playing on one of the most complete teams ever. Old man Stafford ?

 

[PACardsFan]

Sure looks

sure looks like it.. but again it stinks when the best QB in the entire NFC is who? Really aren’t any stars. Dak and Cousins will never win anything.. Hurts was more so a factor of playing on one of the most complete teams ever. Old man Stafford ?

When Murray returns, he’ll be the best QB in the NFC. We are going to see very early on why KK was a useless hire and a detriment to Murray’s development.

 

[phillycard]

Sure looks

sure looks like it.. but again it stinks when the best QB in the entire NFC is who? Really aren’t any stars. Dak and Cousins will never win anything.. Hurts was more so a factor of playing on one of the most complete teams ever. Old man Stafford ?

Disagree. Hurts has it. Perhaps not the most technically skilled QB ever, but he's a damn winner and is capable of putting an underperforming team on his back. The lousy iggles are lucky to have him.

 

[phillycard]

I agree - but it stinks to have a rebuild year when the NFC is perhaps the weakest it’s ever been… our division outside of the Dlines of SF and Rams isn’t intimidating imo.

With you 100% DaHilg. I hate it. The team from two years ago would have perhaps challenged for a #1 seed in this conference.

 

[slanidrac16]

If this regime counts on Murray being superman it will be an epic failure. If we can establish a punch you in the mouth running game then Murray will be better.
In my opinion Defenses over the last couple of years could take away the short to mid passing zones because we were never under center to add to the threat of the run. We also never simply moved Kyler to create passing lanes.
It’s going to hurt that we don’t have a lightning strike rb and a 3 yards and a cloud of dust won’t get it done.

 

[Garthshort]

I see your point about a running game and it makes sense. But, at the same time the NFL seems to be down playing the runners.

 

[Chopper0080]

I see your point about a running game and it makes sense. But, at the same time the NFL seems to be down playing the runners.

It is like buying car. Financing a good car for 4 or 5 years can be worth it in terms of ease of life and reliability. That said, no one feels like financing that same car for 7 or 8 years is a good idea because of risk.

 

[DaHilg]

If this regime counts on Murray being superman it will be an epic failure. If we can establish a punch you in the mouth running game then Murray will be better.
In my opinion Defenses over the last couple of years could take away the short to mid passing zones because we were never under center to add to the threat of the run. We also never simply moved Kyler to create passing lanes.
It’s going to hurt that we don’t have a lightning strike rb and a 3 yards and a cloud of dust won’t get it done.

Completely agree on all points.. esp the def taking away the short to mid passing zones. I think that was more so bc they knew exactly who was lining up where and what 3 routes he was likely to run each time. Easy to press when you know that.