15 Days Until Training Camp Opens(!); 15 Top Stories of Training Camp

[RugbyMuffin]

I disagree with this all over the place. There are do-it-all ILBs in the draft every year. We could've gotten one in 2013 in Kiko Alonzo. We're stuck with Kevin Minter because that's the guy that we chose because we made the mistake of depending on Daryl Washington.

I don't doubt that we have NFL-caliber players as starters and depth at the linebacker position. This is the difference between the LB corps today and the offensive lines of yesteryear.

Nice. Fair enough.

I am going to look into this when I get some time. Is it a situation where you can find maybe 1 or 2 guys like that a draft, or is it that it just seems that way.

Worth looking into since the league seems to be having a void at the position. So, many teams, like the Bills, whom have had an injury at the linebacker position, and seem lost to find a replacement, IMO. But, again, I am going to make a better case, because.....well, what else is there to do.

 

[kerouac9]

Nice. Fair enough.

I am going to look into this when I get some time. Is it a situation where you can find maybe 1 or 2 guys like that a draft, or is it that it just seems that way.

Worth looking into since the league seems to be having a void at the position. So, many teams, like the Bills, whom have had an injury at the linebacker position, and seem lost to find a replacement, IMO. But, again, I am going to make a better case, because.....well, what else is there to do.

Okay. I think I see what you're saying. Here's how I would explain it:

1) More 3-4 defensive changeovers = fewer 3-4 ILB legacies. Most of the league has changed over to a 3-4 defense in the last 5-8 years or so. That means that there are fewer 8-10 year veteran 3-4 ILBs. You have a ton of Tampa-2 type MLBs out there, but they're generally too small to transition smoothly. Thus, there are fewer mid-level veteran ILBs to sign in free agency and the offseason.

2) There are more "elite" MLBs/ILBs than ever. For a half-decade, the only "name" ILBs were Patrick Willis and Brian Urlacher. Now there are five to ten elite guys in the middle of linebacking corps. That should be a good thing--unless you're building your defense around them. It's hard to replace Peyton Manning if he gets injured with a similar player. Teams are finding the same thing with MLBs.

3) Attribution of resources. We've talked for a while that teams are spending less on top inside linebackers and safeties. What that means is that if you have a $4-6M ILB, it's tough to pay anything like that to a backup. If you're a veteran player, it might not make sense to put your body at risk for the veteran minimum, so you have guys who retire rather than play a #2 role.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Okay. I think I see what you're saying. Here's how I would explain it:

1) More 3-4 defensive changeovers = fewer 3-4 ILB legacies. Most of the league has changed over to a 3-4 defense in the last 5-8 years or so. That means that there are fewer 8-10 year veteran 3-4 ILBs. You have a ton of Tampa-2 type MLBs out there, but they're generally too small to transition smoothly. Thus, there are fewer mid-level veteran ILBs to sign in free agency and the offseason.

2) There are more "elite" MLBs/ILBs than ever. For a half-decade, the only "name" ILBs were Patrick Willis and Brian Urlacher. Now there are five to ten elite guys in the middle of linebacking corps. That should be a good thing--unless you're building your defense around them. It's hard to replace Peyton Manning if he gets injured with a similar player. Teams are finding the same thing with MLBs.

3) Attribution of resources. We've talked for a while that teams are spending less on top inside linebackers and safeties. What that means is that if you have a $4-6M ILB, it's tough to pay anything like that to a backup. If you're a veteran player, it might not make sense to put your body at risk for the veteran minimum, so you have guys who retire rather than play a #2 role.

I think we are on the same page. Great point about preference of resources. Too bad DWaste is taking up a lot of resources and giving back nothing.

Here is a list of players I would deem a "every down LB talent". Good in coverage, Good against the run.

And I was trying to be very generous.

Some are questionable, some are unproven, and some are injured.

Right off the bat, the research showed the AFC north has a glut of linebacker talent. Teams like the Ravens, Patriots, Bengals, and 49'ers have a lot of talent at the linebacker position.

Bills - Kiki Alonso (inj.)
Jets - David Harris ?
Patriots - Jerod Mayo
Dolphins - Danell Ellerbe ?

Bengals - Vontaze Burflict/Vincent Rey
Ravens - C.J. Mosley (unproven)
Browns - Karlos Dansby
Steelers - Lawrence Timmons/Ryan Shazier (unproven)

Texas - Brian Cushing
Colts - _____
Jaguars - Paul Posluzny
Titans - _____

Chiefs - Derrick Johnson
Broncos - _____
Raiders - _____
Chargers - Manti Te'o (unproven)

Cowboys - Shaun Lee ?(inj.)
Giants - _____
Eagles - _____
Redskins - _____

Bears - DJ Williams?
Lions - De'Andre Levy
Packers - AJ Hawk?
Vikings - Chad Greenway?

Falcons - ______
Panthers - Luke Kuechley
Saints - ______
Bucs - Lavante David

Cardinals - ______
Rams - James Laurenitis
49'ers - Patrick Willis/Navorro Bowman
Seahawks - Bobby Wagner


For every down linebackers, that is who I would list for the league for each team, and please anyone feel free to add to the list and give me a reason why that player should be on it.

Also, remember I was being rather generous, if you think someone should not be on the list, please make an argument for it.

But, remember that have to be able to play the run and go back into coverage.

I still think its a position that is a little light in the league, but K9 is right, a lot of those players were not 1st round picks, or "elite out of college", and there are more elite guys out there then 10 years ago.

 

[cardncubfan]

I disagree with this all over the place. There are do-it-all ILBs in the draft every year. We could've gotten one in 2013 in Kiko Alonzo. We're stuck with Kevin Minter because that's the guy that we chose because we made the mistake of depending on Daryl Washington.

I don't doubt that we have NFL-caliber players as starters and depth at the linebacker position. This is the difference between the LB corps today and the offensive lines of yesteryear.

Nice. Fair enough.

I am going to look into this when I get some time. Is it a situation where you can find maybe 1 or 2 guys like that a draft, or is it that it just seems that way.

Worth looking into since the league seems to be having a void at the position. So, many teams, like the Bills, whom have had an injury at the linebacker position, and seem lost to find a replacement, IMO. But, again, I am going to make a better case, because.....well, what else is there to do.

I must of got lost here. I thought Rugbys response was to the bolded by K9.

 

[kerouac9]

For every down linebackers, that is who I would list for the league for each team, and please anyone feel free to add to the list and give me a reason why that player should be on it.

Sean Weatherspoon, LB, Atlanta Falcons. He's on IR now and fought through injuries last season, but that guy's a stud.

Daryl Washington, LB, Arizona Cardinals. It's unfortunate what he did to the team, but until otherwise, he's as much a Cardinal as Alonzo is a Bill and Sean Lee a Cowboy.

Daryl Smith, LB, Baltimore Ravens. He's getting up there in age, but he's a complete MLB/ILB.

Wesley Woodyard, Denver Broncos. He lead the Broncos in LB snaps last year, and was a stud for them in the middle the year before. Ceded time to Paris Lenon late in the year due to injury.

Curtis Lofton, New Orleans Saints. The Saints D wouldn't have improved last season as much as they did without some players stepping up. Lofton was one such player. 2 sacks and 6 passes defensed.

 

[Chopper0080]

Top five stories of training camp...

1-The right side of the offensive line battle and the health of the left side?

2-Does any player OLB distingish themselves as a pass rusher?

3-How limited are the Cardinals in coverage at ILB?

4-How healthy is Mathieu and how effective is the S play without him?

5-Which TE stands out and becomes a threat in either the running game or the passing game?

Other than that, it is about health. The only other area of concern, which you hinted at, is our offenses ability to create a legitimate vertical passing attack. Palmer will be Palmer. Ellington will be Ellington. Our defensive line will be solid. Our CBs are talented and have some depth. 2014 will come down the above 5 factors IMO.

 

[kerouac9]

Top five stories of training camp...

1-The right side of the offensive line battle and the health of the left side?

2-Does any player OLB distingish themselves as a pass rusher?

3-How limited are the Cardinals in coverage at ILB?

I think the answer to this question is "really limited." The Cards might have a three-safety set as their base defense against three-receiver sets from the start of the season. Minter or Foote might be a "starter" in the base defense, but one of them might not be on the field as much as 50% of the time.

4-How healthy is Mathieu and how effective is the S play without him?

I really, really, REALLY hope that this isn't a training camp question. If Honey Badger participates in team activities in camp, he can't be placed on the PUP list to begin the season. I know that "Tenacious" was great and everything, but let's not rush the kid back. Please. Jefferson, Johnson, and Bucannon should get us through the first quarter of the season or more. Heck, two of those guys are practically linebackers anyway.

5-Which TE stands out and becomes a threat in either the running game or the passing game?

Reading between the lines of OTA coverage from the team's site, it certainly seems like John Carlson and everyone else. Actually, John Carlson, Ballard, then everyone else. Those two guys have to stay healthy, but I think that Housler is really going to have to bust it to get playing time in the preseason against guys who will still be playing football come October.

Other than that, it is about health. The only other area of concern, which you hinted at, is our offenses ability to create a legitimate vertical passing attack. Palmer will be Palmer. Ellington will be Ellington. Our defensive line will be solid. Our CBs are talented and have some depth. 2014 will come down the above 5 factors IMO.

It's always health. People don't realize it, but the Cards were one of the healthiest teams in the NFL last season. There may be some regression to the mean, and it'll depend where that happens.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I must of got lost here. I thought Rugbys response was to the bolded by K9.

No, you didn't get lost.

I gotta little bit of what he was saying, he got a little bit of what I was saying and we met in the middle. A disjointed yet functional conversation.

Just pealing away at that onion so to speak. Regardless it gives a decent picture of what the ILB position looks like these days.

Sent from my intergalactic transmorgapher

 

[cardpa]

I think the answer to this question is "really limited." The Cards might have a three-safety set as their base defense against three-receiver sets from the start of the season. Minter or Foote might be a "starter" in the base defense, but one of them might not be on the field as much as 50% of the time.



I really, really, REALLY hope that this isn't a training camp question. If Honey Badger participates in team activities in camp, he can't be placed on the PUP list to begin the season. I know that "Tenacious" was great and everything, but let's not rush the kid back. Please. Jefferson, Johnson, and Bucannon should get us through the first quarter of the season or more. Heck, two of those guys are practically linebackers anyway.



Reading between the lines of OTA coverage from the team's site, it certainly seems like John Carlson and everyone else. Actually, John Carlson, Ballard, then everyone else. Those two guys have to stay healthy, but I think that Housler is really going to have to bust it to get playing time in the preseason against guys who will still be playing football come October.



It's always health. People don't realize it, but the Cards were one of the healthiest teams in the NFL last season. There may be some regression to the mean, and it'll depend where that happens.

I was always of the belief that signing Ballard was a wise move on Keim's part. Yes he was coming back from an injury however when healthy Ballard was a pretty good TE. If I were Housler I would be pretty worried about being a roster guy come September. BASK didn't draft the ND kid because they had nothing better to do. HE will end up in the mix somewhere down the line.

Health can kill a team. K9 is right the Cardinals did enjoy a good run in health last year. Let's hope that continues into this year.

 

[Chopper0080]

I think the answer to this question is "really limited." The Cards might have a three-safety set as their base defense against three-receiver sets from the start of the season. Minter or Foote might be a "starter" in the base defense, but one of them might not be on the field as much as 50% of the time.



I really, really, REALLY hope that this isn't a training camp question. If Honey Badger participates in team activities in camp, he can't be placed on the PUP list to begin the season. I know that "Tenacious" was great and everything, but let's not rush the kid back. Please. Jefferson, Johnson, and Bucannon should get us through the first quarter of the season or more. Heck, two of those guys are practically linebackers anyway.



Reading between the lines of OTA coverage from the team's site, it certainly seems like John Carlson and everyone else. Actually, John Carlson, Ballard, then everyone else. Those two guys have to stay healthy, but I think that Housler is really going to have to bust it to get playing time in the preseason against guys who will still be playing football come October.



It's always health. People don't realize it, but the Cards were one of the healthiest teams in the NFL last season. There may be some regression to the mean, and it'll depend where that happens.

re: Mathieu...the training camp question should be to determine if he will be back this year at all or able to return mid season. I didn't specify that and should have.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

1-The right side of the offensive line battle and the health of the left side?

I am very interested in what happens on the right side of the line, but I would be surprised it if regressed. As for the health on the left side, that is what it is, IMO.


2-Does any player OLB distingish themselves as a pass rusher?

I assume that we are talking about an OLB besides John Abraham. Until Abraham cannot get the job done then he is the talent there. Besides Abraham, I would imagine the Cardinals are banking on Okafor becoming that guy. But, I am not convinced Okafor will be. That is a big time need on this team.


3-How limited are the Cardinals in coverage at ILB?

Very. We have a good discussion in this thread about ILB'er and coverage. Karlos Dansby is still considered a good coverage linebacker, and he was a step down from Daryl Washington. Point is the slop is steep when talking about linebacker coverage ability. It is not rare, but still hard to find a good all around linebacker. Then when you start talking about "coverage linebackers", that usually means a linebacker that is good in coverage and weak against the run.

At that point, I agree with some of the statements on the board to just send a 3rd safety out there.


4-How healthy is Mathieu and how effective is the S play without him?

Jefferson, Bucannon, and Johnson can hold the fort down. I hope Arians pulls the "I'm the head coach" card, and makes sure Matheui doesn't see the field till October. No need to rush the guy back after damaging two ligaments in his leg.


5-Which TE stands out and becomes a threat in either the running game or the passing game?

It really stinks Niklas has been hurt, and I hope that trend doesn't continue. He was my vote to make an impact in the running game right away. I am very hesitant about the John Carlson hype. Thus my candidate is Jake Ballard whom may not make "big chunk" plays, but he has shown he can be clutch. The dude will be the dude, he is what he is at this point in his career.

 

[kerouac9]

I am very hesitant about the John Carlson hype.

Por que?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Por que?

Injuries, and hasn't really done anything in the league up to this point.

I would say if you took the effects that Todd Heap and Rob Housler have had on me as a fan, and mixed them together, it would describe the reason I hesitate to rely on the guy.

He will have to prove he can get it done on the field, since I am tired of hearing about Arizona tight ends who are going to "break out."

The last time we had a tight end that was injury plagued he sat out more games than he played in.

 

[kerouac9]

Injuries, and hasn't really done anything in the league up to this point.

I would say if you took the effects that Todd Heap and Rob Housler have had on me as a fan, and mixed them together, it would describe the reason I hesitate to rely on the guy.

He will have to prove he can get it done on the field, since I am tired of hearing about Arizona tight ends who are going to "break out."

The last time we had a tight end that was injury plagued he sat out more games than he played in.

I guess. Carlson has been available for 13+ games a year in five of his six pro seasons. I think you just have the wrong frame on Carlson. From one perspective, he's a rich man's Jake Ballard. From another, he's more comperable to when we got Freddie Jones than when we got Todd Heap at the end of a 10 year career. Carlson has played half as long.

I don't expect him to break out and catch 70 balls and score 6 TDs. I expect him to start and play at the highest level from a two-way TE that we've had, like, ever.

Carlson managed to play more snaps for the Vikings last year than Kyle Rudolph.

 

[cardpa]

I guess. Carlson has been available for 13+ games a year in five of his six pro seasons. I think you just have the wrong frame on Carlson. From one perspective, he's a rich man's Jake Ballard. From another, he's more comperable to when we got Freddie Jones than when we got Todd Heap at the end of a 10 year career. Carlson has played half as long.

I don't expect him to break out and catch 70 balls and score 6 TDs. I expect him to start and play at the highest level from a two-way TE that we've had, like, ever.

Carlson managed to play more snaps for the Vikings last year than Kyle Rudolph.

Well stated K9, both are more than adequate at blocking which was never Housler's strength. Both can catch the ball and catch it in traffic. I expect each to have 25-35 catches for a few hundred yards each. I would not be surprised to see each have 3-4 TDs either. With Fitz, Floyd, Ginn, and Ellington running all over the secondary these two will find plenty of open spaces to drop into and provide Palmer with a safety valve option.

 

[Mulli]

I guess. Carlson has been available for 13+ games a year in five of his six pro seasons. I think you just have the wrong frame on Carlson. From one perspective, he's a rich man's Jake Ballard. From another, he's more comperable to when we got Freddie Jones than when we got Todd Heap at the end of a 10 year career. Carlson has played half as long.

I don't expect him to break out and catch 70 balls and score 6 TDs. I expect him to start and play at the highest level from a two-way TE that we've had, like, ever.

Carlson managed to play more snaps for the Vikings last year than Kyle Rudolph.

wow, great stuff.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Carlson managed to play more snaps for the Vikings last year than Kyle Rudolph.

That is surprising.

Don't get me wrong. I would love to be dead wrong about the guy.

 

[cardpa]

1-The right side of the offensive line battle and the health of the left side?

I am very interested in what happens on the right side of the line, but I would be surprised it if regressed. As for the health on the left side, that is what it is, IMO.


2-Does any player OLB distingish themselves as a pass rusher?

I assume that we are talking about an OLB besides John Abraham. Until Abraham cannot get the job done then he is the talent there. Besides Abraham, I would imagine the Cardinals are banking on Okafor becoming that guy. But, I am not convinced Okafor will be. That is a big time need on this team.


3-How limited are the Cardinals in coverage at ILB?

Very. We have a good discussion in this thread about ILB'er and coverage. Karlos Dansby is still considered a good coverage linebacker, and he was a step down from Daryl Washington. Point is the slop is steep when talking about linebacker coverage ability. It is not rare, but still hard to find a good all around linebacker. Then when you start talking about "coverage linebackers", that usually means a linebacker that is good in coverage and weak against the run.

At that point, I agree with some of the statements on the board to just send a 3rd safety out there.


4-How healthy is Mathieu and how effective is the S play without him?

Jefferson, Bucannon, and Johnson can hold the fort down. I hope Arians pulls the "I'm the head coach" card, and makes sure Matheui doesn't see the field till October. No need to rush the guy back after damaging two ligaments in his leg.


5-Which TE stands out and becomes a threat in either the running game or the passing game?

It really stinks Niklas has been hurt, and I hope that trend doesn't continue. He was my vote to make an impact in the running game right away. I am very hesitant about the John Carlson hype. Thus my candidate is Jake Ballard whom may not make "big chunk" plays, but he has shown he can be clutch. The dude will be the dude, he is what he is at this point in his career.

If we don't have the OLBs to rush the passer will we see more 4 linemen in passing situations? Pass rushing is suppose to be Martins strength and Abraham has played as a DE before. Slide CC and DD inside and you may have a pretty good pass rushing front four. Now you can opt to blitz either and ILB or a safety whenever you want. If the front four is getting enough pressure then you also have pretty nice coverage with 7. I would expect Bowles to play to whichever strength he has available to him.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Injuries, and hasn't really done anything in the league up to this point.

I don't know if I agree with this statement. Sure Carlson has been injury prone the last couple of years but there is a reason the Vikings gave him a $25M contract to steal him from the Seahawks a few years ago. In his rookie season he broke a bunch of Steve Largents rookie records for the Seahawks playing on a very bad team. His second year was also very solid grabbing 7 TDs.

I agree that the concussion issue is a major concern. However If Carlson can regain his form similar to his first 2 years he will be a solid contributor on this offense. I'll gladly take 55 receptions for 600 yards and 7 TDs out of Carlson. When was the last time we had a TE put up numbers like that?

 

[Totally_Red]

12. Special Teams Standing Out. The attention in training camp will be on the development of the offense, but the real factor where the Cards need to become at least average in 2014 is on special teams. According to FootballOutsiders' advanced metrics, the Cards special teams ranked 27th in the NFL, and the only area where the Cards were above average was in the punting game. The Cards can only get better in the punt return game, and for the first time in a while, kicker Jay Feely may have real competition for his job. Both kick and punt returner jobs are open to competition, where Patrick Peterson should take a back seat to someone who can be more regularly productive.

Late to the party on this, but I think special teams is the one area where significant improvement must be made. The Cardinals' kick and punt return units were atrocious last season. Those units buried the offense in poor field position all season long. They simply must improve. I like the quality of the returners {Ted Ginn} added. We'll obviously see if that improves the overall units.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I don't know if I agree with this statement. Sure Carlson has been injury prone the last couple of years but there is a reason the Vikings gave him a $25M contract to steal him from the Seahawks a few years ago. In his rookie season he broke a bunch of Steve Largents rookie records for the Seahawks playing on a very bad team. His second year was also very solid grabbing 7 TDs.

I agree that the concussion issue is a major concern. However If Carlson can regain his form similar to his first 2 years he will be a solid contributor on this offense. I'll gladly take 55 receptions for 600 yards and 7 TDs out of Carlson. When was the last time we had a TE put up numbers like that?

.....I am guessing the Fred Wakefield project.

 

[cardncubfan]

I think I'll leave this here. Don't know where else to put it & didn't want to start a new thread.

http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/a...ksrc=story_article_msn_mainhead_head_16840078

 

[Garthshort]

Two Things:
1. QB assessment seems fair. And we better hope that CP stays healthy.
2. Ryan Lindley is doubtful to make the team, but to mention that this is his third season and he has yet to throw a TD pass, seems like a cheap shot to me. 1) He didn't play at all last year. 2)He shouldn't have played at all in his rookie year and he wasn't ready for the NFL. His PS this year will determine if he has a future in the League even as a backup.

 

[Chopper0080]

1-The right side of the offensive line battle and the health of the left side?

I am very interested in what happens on the right side of the line, but I would be surprised it if regressed. As for the health on the left side, that is what it is, IMO.


2-Does any player OLB distingish themselves as a pass rusher?

I assume that we are talking about an OLB besides John Abraham. Until Abraham cannot get the job done then he is the talent there. Besides Abraham, I would imagine the Cardinals are banking on Okafor becoming that guy. But, I am not convinced Okafor will be. That is a big time need on this team.


3-How limited are the Cardinals in coverage at ILB?

Very. We have a good discussion in this thread about ILB'er and coverage. Karlos Dansby is still considered a good coverage linebacker, and he was a step down from Daryl Washington. Point is the slop is steep when talking about linebacker coverage ability. It is not rare, but still hard to find a good all around linebacker. Then when you start talking about "coverage linebackers", that usually means a linebacker that is good in coverage and weak against the run.

At that point, I agree with some of the statements on the board to just send a 3rd safety out there.


4-How healthy is Mathieu and how effective is the S play without him?

Jefferson, Bucannon, and Johnson can hold the fort down. I hope Arians pulls the "I'm the head coach" card, and makes sure Matheui doesn't see the field till October. No need to rush the guy back after damaging two ligaments in his leg.


5-Which TE stands out and becomes a threat in either the running game or the passing game?

It really stinks Niklas has been hurt, and I hope that trend doesn't continue. He was my vote to make an impact in the running game right away. I am very hesitant about the John Carlson hype. Thus my candidate is Jake Ballard whom may not make "big chunk" plays, but he has shown he can be clutch. The dude will be the dude, he is what he is at this point in his career.

Something to remember, 6 of Abraham's 11.5 sacks came in two games. That doesn't invalidate them, but it does indicate that he may not be the week to week pressure player that his stats show make him out to be.

Personally, I am hesitant in my expectations of Abraham and will be shocked if he gets over 8 sacks this season.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Something to remember, 6 of Abraham's 11.5 sacks came in two games. That doesn't invalidate them, but it does indicate that he may not be the week to week pressure player that his stats show make him out to be.

Personally, I am hesitant in my expectations of Abraham and will be shocked if he gets over 8 sacks this season.

As much as I respect Abraham, time takes its toll on everyone at some point.

No doubt its a valid concern, but I have no problem with the Cardinals penciling him in for the job this season.