2010 FIBA World Championship Thread

[Manu4five]

by the way - Garbajosa was one of those guys who came to play in NBA. didn't really impact much in Toronto. I'm sure Diamantidis wouldn't either. it was also his last game for national team.

Ok but do you understand these are good players? Do you agree that Garbajosa is equal to Horry and Diamantidis to Bowen? I know it's hard for americans to acknowledge such a thing, given their inflated view of the NBA.

 

[elindholm]

Do you agree that Garbajosa is equal to Horry and Diamantidis to Bowen?

I don't have any idea. I know there are good European players, and sure, probably dozens or hundreds are as good as Horry, whose only claim to fame was a knack for being in the right place at the right time. But as JoRain pointed out, Garbajosa is a good example of a Euro whose game didn't translate to the NBA.

You're all bent out of shape because I've said that I don't think Splitter in a Spurs uniform is anything to get excited about. That's how this all started. You keep telling me that Splitter is a good Euroleague player. I know that. Then you tell me that there are players who grew up in Europe and had good NBA careers. I know that too. Then you tell me that there are other Euro players who could play in the NBA but choose not to. Sure, that's fairly obvious.

This isn't about the quality of Euroball. I imagine it's quite high. It's about how well the skills transfer from that setting to the NBA. You seem to think that the only differences are the continent on which games are played and Americans' smug insistence that the NBA is intrinsically superior. But the differences are more than that, as Americans keep discovering when they struggle in FIBA tournaments.

If you want to win this argument, all you have to do is place your bet with Splitter and tell me, "Wait and see." If he comes through for you, I'll admit that he's one of the very few exceptions of an established Euroball talent who could have an impact in the NBA. We'll know in a few months. Until then, all your name-calling isn't going to do anything except dig you a bigger hole for when Splitter flops.

I'm not afraid of seeing how Splitter is going to turn out. Why are you?

I'll let you have the last word now with another semicoherent grunt about how "stupid" or "ignorant" I am.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't have any idea. I know there are good European players, and sure, probably dozens or hundreds are as good as Horry, whose only claim to fame was a knack for being in the right place at the right time. But as JoRain pointed out, Garbajosa is a good example of a Euro whose game didn't translate to the NBA.

You're all bent out of shape because I've said that I don't think Splitter in a Spurs uniform is anything to get excited about. That's how this all started. You keep telling me that Splitter is a good Euroleague player. I know that. Then you tell me that there are players who grew up in Europe and had good NBA careers. I know that too. Then you tell me that there are other Euro players who could play in the NBA but choose not to. Sure, that's fairly obvious.

This isn't about the quality of Euroball. I imagine it's quite high. It's about how well the skills transfer from that setting to the NBA. You seem to think that the only differences are the continent on which games are played and Americans' smug insistence that the NBA is intrinsically superior. But the differences are more than that, as Americans keep discovering when they struggle in FIBA tournaments.

If you want to win this argument, all you have to do is place your bet with Splitter and tell me, "Wait and see." If he comes through for you, I'll admit that he's one of the very few exceptions of an established Euroball talent who could have an impact in the NBA. We'll know in a few months. Until then, all your name-calling isn't going to do anything except dig you a bigger hole for when Splitter flops.

I'm not afraid of seeing how Splitter is going to turn out. Why are you?

I'll let you have the last word now with another semicoherent grunt about how "stupid" or "ignorant" I am.

Good post.

Steve

 

[Manu4five]

Actually you said that Splitter sucks and will never play in the nba LOL

 

[elindholm]

Actually you said that Splitter sucks and will never play in the nba LOL

Well, I meant that he sucked in terms of NBA potential, which was the context of the discussion. Who knows, maybe he's also an excellent chef, but that wasn't what we were talking about. I will admit that I'm surprised that he has gotten this close to actually setting foot on an NBA floor. Now we'll see whether it makes any difference.

 

[Manu4five]

Aha you were not talking about him as a chef. Maybe could have been a nice escape route: "I didn't mean he sucked at basketball" LOL

So do you think Splitter will play in the holy NBA?

Why will his skills not translate to the NBA exactly?

 

[elindholm]

So do you think Splitter will play in the holy NBA?

I don't know. It looks like he will. I still suspect he'll chicken out, but I wouldn't bet on it anymore.

Why will his skills not translate to the NBA exactly?

I have no idea. You should ask him. There's a reason he's been so slow to come over, and the most likely explanation is that he doesn't think he can cut it. I don't know why.

Why are you so reluctant to write, "Wait and see"? That's all you have to do. You can even copy-and-paste mine, if identifying the letters on the keyboard is too much for you.

 

[Sunburn]

Hedo had a good game against France. 20 points on 6 of 10 shooting. 4-7 from 3. 4-4 from the line. 4 reb, 3 assist, 1 block, 0 TO. 40 minutes of playing time.

Edit-Actually I think they have the playing time numbers marked down wrong. It says the starters all played 40 minutes and not one sub played a full minute. Yet the stat lines for sub players clearly indicate significant playing time.

 

[Chaplin]

Hedo looked great for the Turks. Was it me, or did Boris look overweight?

 

[JoRain]

Hedo had a good game against France. 20 points on 6 of 10 shooting. 4-7 from 3. 4-4 from the line. 4 reb, 3 assist, 1 block, 0 TO. 40 minutes of playing time.

and now he'll play against Dragic and Slovenia in quarterfinals. Slovenians never left any chance to Australia - Dragic had a good game too - 10 points, 8 assists, 4 boards. some of his passes were really sweet

 

[Sunburn]

and now he'll play against Dragic and Slovenia in quarterfinals.

Def want to see this. Will it be televised and, if so, what time?

 

[JoRain]

Ok but do you understand these are good players? Do you agree that Garbajosa is equal to Horry and Diamantidis to Bowen? I know it's hard for americans to acknowledge such a thing, given their inflated view of the NBA.

Actually I'm a European! and I watch a lot of Euro ball.
And yes - they are good players. good Role players. and they work only in their system. I saw a lot of games of Garbajosa when he was playing in Russia, and he didn't work there either. Also I wouldn't equal Cheap Shot Bob with Garbo, they're totally different players. I don't think Horry would work in Euroball the same Garbo didn't work in NBA, the same way many promising American's that go to Europe can't get the success they had in US.
I also highly doubt Diamantidis in NBA would have even half of effect Bowen had.
It's just too big of a difference between NBA and FIBA. Rules are different, defenses are different, approaches are different.

Also, many good Euro players don't go to NBA just because of money. they almost always leave money on the table with their first check in NBA. Same goes to Splitter.

 

[Chaz]

Def want to see this. Will it be televised and, if so, what time?

It looks like it will be on NBA TV.

Wednesday 9/8, Time is still TBD.
It will either be 8am or 11am MST/PDT.


Serbia v. Spain will be the other game that day.

 

[Sunburn]

It looks like it will be on NBA TV.

Wednesday 9/8, Time is still TBD.
It will either be 8am or 11am MST/PDT.


Serbia v. Spain will be the other game that day.

Thanks

 

[Superbone]

No, I meant that Euros who stay in Europe long enough to become mature, established stars, then try to transfer that stardom to the NBA, which is the category that Splitter will allegedly find himself in. (Splitter is also only 25, but he's been "a name" longer than Ginobili had been.)

The claim was, Euro stars are staying in Europe more time in order to avoid being hemmed in to an NBA rookie scale, but they can come over to the NBA and dominate whenever they want. I said that there is no example of an established Euro player coming over to the NBA mid-career and having an impact, except arguably Scola.

Try following the conversation next time and you won't be so easily confused.

Two words: Arvydas Sabonis

 

[Superbone]

Hedo looked great for the Turks. Was it me, or did Boris look overweight?

He's looked overweight to everybody.

 

[elindholm]

Two words: Arvydas Sabonis

Yep, he's a good one, forgot about him. Okay, Sabonis and Scola, that's two in what, 30 years?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yep, he's a good one, forgot about him. Okay, Sabonis and Scola, that's two in what, 30 years?

But wasn't this argument, at least in part, about Euro players staying in Europe in order to avoid the "slave contract" for rookies. If so, I think Sabo predates that situation by several years. But yes, he was a very good center who would have starred in the NBA had he come over in his prime.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

But wasn't this argument, at least in part, about Euro players staying in Europe in order to avoid the "slave contract" for rookies.

Oh, sure, but that argument is so patently absurd that I didn't bother debating it. Any Euro confident in his skills knows that he would suffer under the "slave contract" for only four years, then could command eight figures for the next 10 or 12. But only if he comes over young! By the time a player is in his mid-20s, the salary rules of the NBA are a cause for concern, since an old rookie won't be eligible for a lucrative extension until he's about 30. So it's pretty obvious that a Euro worried about money should come over sooner, not later.

 

[SunsTzu]

Oh, sure, but that argument is so patently absurd that I didn't bother debating it. Any Euro confident in his skills knows that he would suffer under the "slave contract" for only four years, then could command eight figures for the next 10 or 12. But only if he comes over young! By the time a player is in his mid-20s, the salary rules of the NBA are a cause for concern, since an old rookie won't be eligible for a lucrative extension until he's about 30. So it's pretty obvious that a Euro worried about money should come over sooner, not later.

I'm pretty sure the rookie scale/contract structure for 1st rounders only applies for the first 3 or 4 years a team holds their rights. If a player stays in Europe and comes after that rookie contract is no longer valid then their contract can be structured however they want, like 2nd rounders. It's debatable how much more they'd get paid over the course of their playing career by staying a few extra years in Europe or coming over immediately.

Obviously NBA stars make much more than European players but the lower tiers can possibly make more. I'm pretty sure after taxes Childress would have made more playing for his Greek team this year than his new contract gives.

For the record I think Splitter will be productive and become the starter this season.

 

[elindholm]

If a player stays in Europe and comes after that rookie contract is no longer valid then their contract can be structured however they want, like 2nd rounders.

Yes, but it's still going to be for sub-MLE money. Dragic's contract is considered huge by second-round standards, and it's still under $2 million for this season.

It's debatable how much more they'd get paid over the course of their playing career by staying a few extra years in Europe or coming over immediately.

It depends on whether they'd be an impact player in the NBA. If they'd be good enough to command a big extension, coming to the NBA is clearly the better financial move. But for the marginal players, you're right that it could be a toss-up, or potentially better to stay in Europe.

Obviously NBA stars make much more than European players but the lower tiers can possibly make more.

Right, that's consistent with the point I've been making all along: Euros who stay in Europe through the middles of their careers won't be impact players in the NBA -- because they would have come over already. For a potential star, the excuse of staying in Europe for financial advantages is transparent in its deception. I've never challenged the notion that it might make sense for middling talents.

 

[Bufalay]

Yep, he's a good one, forgot about him. Okay, Sabonis and Scola, that's two in what, 30 years?

Toni Kukoc

 

[Manu4five]

Four years is a long time for a young pro. Anything can happen during those years.

There are also many different reasons for a player to make a certain decision. One of Splitter's reasons to stay in Europe a few years extra was that he wanted to be close to and help his sister, Michelle, who was battling leukaemia but passed away in feb 2009. (She was also a promising bball player). He got paid more money early by staying in Europe and this summer he was not bound by any contract or the rookie scale and signed a relatively short deal with the Spurs. The Spurs could lowball him because he really wanted to make this move now. I don't see why this makes it apparent that he will suck in the NBA. To repeat myself, I don't expect him to be an all-star but to be about as good or slightly better than Oberto, Rasho or our current starter Dice and that would be perfectly fine.

 

[Manu4five]

There's a reason he's been so slow to come over, and the most likely explanation is that he doesn't think he can cut it. I don't know why.

So how do you explain that Splitter in fact signed a contract with the Spurs?

Also why would the Spurs FO want to bring him over if he sucks so bad?

 

[elindholm]

Toni Kukoc

Another good one!