2017-2018 Draft Prospects watch.

[Mainstreet]

no one's mad. People are questioning why twitter is going crazy over a nice drive and finish like he just went Amare on Olowakandi.

STOP PROJECTING STUPID ARGUMENTS ON TO OTHERS BECAUSE IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE YOUR POINT STRONGER.

holy crap. YOU JUST DID IT AGAIN. I'll go all caps again since you're either willfully ignoring this or just too dense to understand.

1) NO ONE CALLED YOUR ARGUMENT STUPID.

2) PEOPLE SAID THEY WERE SURPRISED THE DUNK GOT SO MUCH ATTENTION BECAUSE IT WAS JUST A DECENT PLAY.

3) YOU THEN SAID WE WERE ANGRY ABOUT THIS DUNK.

4) THUS, YOU TOOK OUR INITIAL COMMENT ABOUT THE REACTION TO THE DUNK, TWISTED IT INTO SOMETHING IT WASN'T, WHICH PROJECTING STUPIDITY INTO WHAT WE'RE SAYING, AND THEY YOU ARGUED AGAINST SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T EXIST.

My freaking lord.

I think @pokerface made some legitimate points about Doncic.

That was a nice dunk by the way.

He should be top NBA player. Almost every scouting service agrees about him being in the top 5.

There is only a 25% chance the Suns get the top pick.

 

[Mr. Boldin]

prisoner of the moment. What's today's trend won't be tomorrow's. The "multi positional" thing is great if you have a 6'10 Beast in Simmons... or a 6'11 Freak like KD. But even TODAY'S teams that are great ALL have SIZE. The Warriors are actually huge with 6'11 KD and McGee down low. If Leonard was healthy, they too would have stereotypical size at every position. But we're not even competing with those teams and won't be by the time we're ready to rock.

Tomorrow's teams are New Orleans, Utah and Minnesota in the West with the Philly, Celtics and Toronto in the East.

And ALL of them have practically standard size, players at their given positions.

Building your team in today's model of the NBA will leave us in the past.

The Warriors led the league in defense for years, well before KD, with Curry, Iggy, Klay, Draymond, and Bogut. Not to mention Livingston off the bench. A handful of switchable, like sized, defenders.

The Jazz have a slew of like sized switchable wings and defenders.
The Celtics have a slew of like sized switchable wings and defenders.
The 76ers have a slew of like sized switchable wings and defenders.

The difference is, guys with elite size and skill are the future. The unicorn bigs. You surround those guys with a bunch of guys who can play and defend multiple positions, and your lineup permutations are endless. That gives you a HUGE advantage over the competition.

If you want the future, you want a big/wing who can shoot, pass, rebound, defend, and protect the rim. Saying "multi positional thing" is building in today's model and leaving you in the past, is just wrong IMO. We can agree to disagree there though, as I dont want to keep rehashing this.

There arent many rosters like the Celtics, 76ers, Warriors. Teams are ALWAYS trying to find competent wings. Those three teams have a TON of them. Thats why they are so difficult to match up with.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The Warriors led the league in defense for years, well before KD, with Curry, Iggy, Klay, Draymond, and Bogut. Not to mention Livingston off the bench. A handful of switchable, like sized, defenders.

The Jazz have a slew of like sized switchable wings and defenders.
The Celtics have a slew of like sized switchable wings and defenders.
The 76ers have a slew of like sized switchable wings and defenders.

The difference is, guys with elite size and skill are the future. The unicorn bigs. You surround those guys with a bunch of guys who can play and defend multiple positions, and your lineup permutations are endless. That gives you a HUGE advantage over the competition.

If you want the future, you want a big/wing who can shoot, pass, rebound, defend, and protect the rim. Saying "multi positional thing" is building in today's model and leaving you in the past, is just wrong IMO. We can agree to disagree there though, as I dont want to keep rehashing this.

There arent many rosters like the Celtics, 76ers, Warriors. Teams are ALWAYS trying to find competent wings. Those three teams have a TON of them. Thats why they are so difficult to match up with.

Who are the ton of wings on the sixers? They’re almost all bigs.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Who are the ton of wings on the sixers? They’re almost all bigs.

Bingo.

And even with the first iteration of the Warriors, they could run wings because they were all very good athletes AND could defend.

Which is what scares me about building around Booker/Jackson/Doncic. They’re all similar size, but only one of them is a great athlete and can defend. I worry if Book and Doncic are two of your big three the team will get murdered on the boards and leak like a sieve defensively.

 

[JCSunsfan]

At the risk of ruining everything, McD is still the GM, Sarver is still the owner, and Triano may yet end up being our coach.

SWEET DREAMS!

Nope. Triano is officially out of thencoaching possibilities.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Nope. Triano is officially out of thencoaching possibilities.

Ayton is happening. Mark it down.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Ayton is happening. Mark it down.

If the Cardinals get their QOBOTF and the DBACKS win more series in a row than any NL team since like 1904 or something, then yes, the karma is flowing in the valley right now.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If the Cardinals get their QOBOTF and the DBACKS win more series in a row than any NL team since like 1904 or something, then yes, the karma is flowing in the valley right now.

Get back to me when we find out what Robbie Ray's MRI tells us. For a team built around pitching, already losing your second starter feels like same old Arizona karma to me.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Get back to me when we find out what Robbie Ray's MRI tells us. For a team built around pitching, already losing your second starter feels like same old Arizona karma to me.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[AzStevenCal]

You must be registered for see images attach

I was just camping out in the middle ground before a true debbie downer went on a "poor us" rant. Personally, I'm a happy Suns fan AND a happy Dbacks fan. I'm proud of the success we've had with both teams even though the Suns have fallen short of the ultimate goal and for a few years now have fallen short of pretty much all goals.

 

[Raindog]

Ayton is happening. Mark it down.

I hope so. I am getting to the point that anything else will feel like a disappointment. Getting Bagley at #2 will leave me feeling mildly encouraged. Young would be intriguing in that he could potentially be a star, or at least an exciting player to watch... but he could just as easily be another Kris Dunn (just okay). I don't see Doncic as ever being anything special - he may be a competent player in the NBA, but his ceiling is pretty low to me. Bamba is intriguing, but too raw to project his future. And I don't see any of the other guys as being the real generational-type talent we need, though some may become very credible NBA players.

 

[Hoop Head]

I was just camping out in the middle ground before a true debbie downer went on a "poor us" rant. Personally, I'm a happy Suns fan AND a happy Dbacks fan. I'm proud of the success we've had with both teams even though the Suns have fallen short of the ultimate goal and for a few years now have fallen short of pretty much all goals.

I'm not a D-Backs fan but if I had to support a baseball team it would be them, I just don't care for the sport. I agree with being a happy Suns fan. Even though they've sucked for a while they have a bright future and hopefully they can capitalize on their young talent because not only are they good players but they're likable also. Booker is the face of the franchise at 21 and he's earned that with his play. He's young but he's extremely charismatic, likable, and mature for a 21 year old. It should get better for the Suns, but I'll be watching even if it doesn't.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I was just camping out in the middle ground before a true debbie downer went on a "poor us" rant. Personally, I'm a happy Suns fan AND a happy Dbacks fan. I'm proud of the success we've had with both teams even though the Suns have fallen short of the ultimate goal and for a few years now have fallen short of pretty much all goals.

And that was a light hearted poking fun remark as Suns fans whistle through the grave yard.

 

[AzStevenCal]

And that was a light hearted poking fun remark as Suns fans whistle through the grave yard.

I didn't take it any other way but it gave me the opportunity to elaborate on my fandom.

 

[Mr. Boldin]

Who are the ton of wings on the sixers? They’re almost all bigs.

The point is, they have lineup flexibility because:

Simmons
Covington
Luwawu-Cabarrot
Fultz
Holmes
Embiid

Are all long and athletic enough to play/defend at least two positions, plus are all capable of switching PNR and defensive assignments.

It makes it much easier to slot in guys like Redick, Saric, and Belinelli because of the flexibility of those guys.

 

[Mr. Boldin]

Bingo.

And even with the first iteration of the Warriors, they could run wings because they were all very good athletes AND could defend.

Which is what scares me about building around Booker/Jackson/Doncic. They’re all similar size, but only one of them is a great athlete and can defend. I worry if Book and Doncic are two of your big three the team will get murdered on the boards and leak like a sieve defensively.

That is a completely different scenario than saying:

"Building your team in today's model of the NBA will leave us in the past."

Which is what I have had an issue with. In order to stay on the floor in the playoffs, you need to be able to defend and shoot, create your own shot, or protect the rim. That is why you see teams downsizing in the playoffs. Having a team full of wings (or likesized guys who can do two of: defend/shoot/create) provides the versatility needed to shift the game plan at the half, to counter what an offense or defense is doing, and to hopefully keep as many of your best players on the floor and in the rotation. This is also why you see teams platooning at C.

Obviously, I understand where you are coming from in regards to the roster and adding Doncic in this matter. And yeah, I think it might be an issue until we see how/if he improves defensively. I dont think hes terrible defensively, but you also probably dont want him switching too much, and teams will likely target him in ball screens.

My philosophy is, you need competent wings to win in the NBA. You always have, and likely always will. I do agree with you that Ayton should be the pick, because he gives you everything you want, plus can switch and hold his own against guards on the perimeter. He a potential franchise-caliber player with elite athleticism and size, but also has skill. Those are the guys that win titles.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That is a completely different scenario than saying:

"Building your team in today's model of the NBA will leave us in the past."

Which is what I have had an issue with. In order to stay on the floor in the playoffs, you need to be able to defend and shoot, create your own shot, or protect the rim. That is why you see teams downsizing in the playoffs. Having a team full of wings (or likesized guys who can do two of: defend/shoot/create) provides the versatility needed to shift the game plan at the half, to counter what an offense or defense is doing, and to hopefully keep as many of your best players on the floor and in the rotation. This is also why you see teams platooning at C.

Obviously, I understand where you are coming from in regards to the roster and adding Doncic in this matter. And yeah, I think it might be an issue until we see how/if he improves defensively. I dont think hes terrible defensively, but you also probably dont want him switching too much, and teams will likely target him in ball screens.

My philosophy is, you need competent wings to win in the NBA. You always have, and likely always will. I do agree with you that Ayton should be the pick, because he gives you everything you want, plus can switch and hold his own against guards on the perimeter. He a potential franchise-caliber player with elite athleticism and size, but also has skill. Those are the guys that win titles.

I'm good with all of this and my first statement you took issue with was probably a little too broad.

 

[Mr. Boldin]

I'm good with all of this and my first statement you took issue with was probably a little too broad.

All good, so was my "slew of wings" thing.

 

[Errntknght]

It's so nice to see things de-escalate quickly.

 

[Covert Rain]

I was just camping out in the middle ground before a true debbie downer went on a "poor us" rant. Personally, I'm a happy Suns fan AND a happy Dbacks fan. I'm proud of the success we've had with both teams even though the Suns have fallen short of the ultimate goal and for a few years now have fallen short of pretty much all goals.

You are being generous. The Suns have gone 50 years without a title. One of the longest said streaks in all of sports. Although, point taken, the team has seen some good years.

 

[JCSunsfan]

You are being generous. The Suns have gone 50 years without a title. One of the longest said streaks in all of sports. Although, point taken, the team has seen some good years.

12 NBA teams have never won a championship. That is more than one third. Of those, 8 have never even been in a finals series. The Kings have not been in a finals series since 1951, the Hawks since 1961, the Bucks since 1974 and the Wizards since 1979.

23 of the 30 NBA teams have in their history streaks of 9 or more years with no post-season series wins. The Suns are not in that group.

The Clippers went 29 seasons without a post-season series win. The Wizards went 22 seasons. Sacramento has had a 19 season streak and the Pacers, Nets and Bucks have had 17 season streaks without a post-season series win. The Suns are presently in their longest streak ever with 8 seasons.

The point is that the NBA seems particularly suited to shutting out most of its teams from true contention--almost ever. It is dominated by a few teams because it is dominated by a few star players and a set of rules and application of those rules that protects those star players at the expense of the rest.

So lumping basketball teams with other sports is apples and oranges.

 

[Raindog]

The point is that the NBA seems particularly suited to shutting out most of its teams from true contention--almost ever. It is dominated by a few teams because it is dominated by a few star players and a set of rules and application of those rules that protects those star players at the expense of the rest.

Totally agree. And it is the easiest sport to tilt the favor towards certain teams because of the highly subjective nature of how it is officiated, and because it is the sport with the largest margin of impact in terms of individual players. In baseball or football, you can have the best hitter, pitcher, or quarterback, and still be a mediocre to bad team. But how often does that happen in the NBA?

Given that, it is rather easy for the powers that be running the league to tilt the odds in the favor of certain markets or franchises it wants to be successful. Of course, more financially successful franchises in bigger markets in any sport are (on the average) going to be more successful. But the nature of the sport of basketball itself makes it doubly easy to control the flow of success to certain teams/markets.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You are being generous. The Suns have gone 50 years without a title. One of the longest said streaks in all of sports. Although, point taken, the team has seen some good years.

No, I'm not really being generous. I'm telling you about my experience, obviously YMMV. I have loved watching and following the Suns since the day they announced the franchise. I want us to win it all but whether it happens or not, I still love watching and following them.

 

[Covert Rain]

No, I'm not really being generous. I'm telling you about my experience, obviously YMMV. I have loved watching and following the Suns since the day they announced the franchise. I want us to win it all but whether it happens or not, I still love watching and following them.

As do I. I will always be a fan of the Suns for life. I was being a bit facetious in my statement even though it rings absolutely true. This team IMO needs to look beyond their typical approach. They need to pull out all the stops when it comes to coaching or front office hiring. They need to stop worrying about fielding fun teams (like they have so many times in the past). The team is building from the ground up right now which is what many fans on this forum have been clamoring for. I just wish the team could make those sort of moves above the player level.

Let's face it...50+ years and counting without a title is not something to be proud of no matter how you slice any other success the team has had.

So lumping basketball teams with other sports is apples and oranges.

Yeah. 100% disagree. It's like comparing red apples to green apples. It's all still sports. How do we know? Because every single time regardless of sport a team breaks a streak like we have? It's all over every magazine and sports show for months.

EVERY sport has the same issue with small markets, bad owners etc. It's not unique to the NBA.

 

[BC867]

12 NBA teams have never won a championship. That is more than one third. Of those, 8 have never even been in a finals series. The Kings have not been in a finals series since 1951, the Hawks since 1961, the Bucks since 1974 and the Wizards since 1979.

23 of the 30 NBA teams have in their history streaks of 9 or more years with no post-season series wins. The Suns are not in that group.

The Clippers went 29 seasons without a post-season series win. The Wizards went 22 seasons. Sacramento has had a 19 season streak and the Pacers, Nets and Bucks have had 17 season streaks without a post-season series win. The Suns are presently in their longest streak ever with 8 seasons.

The point is that the NBA seems particularly suited to shutting out most of its teams from true contention--almost ever. It is dominated by a few teams because it is dominated by a few star players and a set of rules and application of those rules that protects those star players at the expense of the rest.

So lumping basketball teams with other sports is apples and oranges.

What you say is true, JC. Every bit of it.

But, it would nice to see the Suns advance from the laughingstock phase they currently occupy to good enough. Then try for the next step.