2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

[1Sun]

j


OK. You cannot be talking about summer league, because Booker did not play in summer league.
You cannot be talking about last season, because Jackson's play improved dramatically over the year.
But you must be talking about summer league because Bridges and Ayton were not on the roster last year.
And, I do not remember Booker overextending himself and wearing down. He had an injury. They happen.

So, what in the world are you talking about?

For Booker I am talking about December and January, when he wore down, got hurt, then wore down again.

Jackson was awful through December and into January to the point of being a DNP-Coach's Decision in January.

For Bridges and Ayton, I am talking about playing with Harrison in Summer league.

 

[Carolinacacti]

He couldn't keep up in Summer League. What makes you think he'll be anywhere near ready for regular season NBA?

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maybe I saw something from him this summer you didn't. I just wished he had played the last two games because the Suns would have won.

 

[JCSunsfan]

For Booker I am talking about December and January, when he wore down, got hurt, then wore down again.

Jackson was awful through December and into January to the point of being a DNP-Coach's Decision in January.

For Bridges and Ayton, I am talking about playing with Harrison in Summer league.

And the DNP was the turning point for JJ. Not sure I even see your point. Up until that point JJ had been playing with Mike James. Yeah. That would frustrate anyone.

 

[JCSunsfan]

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maybe I saw something from him this summer you didn't. I just wished he had played the last two games because the Suns would have won.

I am with you Carolina. What I saw from Okobo was a willingness to play within himself. He was never frustrated or out of control. He made solid passes and played a little D. I did not see anything I did not like from him.

When we see the pics and videos coming out of the pickup games and off the court stuff, Elie is in the middle of everything. He is the most prominently pictured player at this point in the pics etc.

 

[Chaplin]

For Booker I am talking about December and January, when he wore down, got hurt, then wore down again.

Jackson was awful through December and into January to the point of being a DNP-Coach's Decision in January.

For Bridges and Ayton, I am talking about playing with Harrison in Summer league.

Why you are basing ANY informed opinion on Summer League is beyond me.

 

[Mainstreet]

Some media folks are really jumping on the Beverley bandwagon.

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[1Sun]

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maybe I saw something from him this summer you didn't. I just wished he had played the last two games because the Suns would have won.

First game against the Mavericks - 9 points on 4 for 8 shooting, 1-3 from three point range, no free throws, 6 assists, 4 turnovers, 4 fouls and a +6 rating against Summer League back-ups.

Second game against the Kings - 0 points on 0 for 5 shooting, 0-3 from three point range, no free throws, 3 assists, 0 turnovers, 3 fouls and a +2 rating against Summer League back-ups.

Third game against the Magic - 0 points 0 for 4 shooting, no three point or free throw attempts, 3 assists, 2 turnovers, no fouls and a -7 rating against Summer League back-ups.

Only played 1 minute against the 76ers and didn't play against the Spurs.

Plus in terms of the eye test, the NBA game just appeared to be too fast for him at this point.

I think Okobo has potential down the road, but again at this early stage he really couldn't keep up, even against scrubs that will be playing in the G League this year.

(Shaq Harrison, meanwhile, had a great first game statistically, had a terrible second game all around, had good assist/turnover numbers but terrible shooting numbers in the third game, was mediocre across the board in the fourth game and had good but not great numbers in the fifth game. More to the point, though, he was noticeably bad at involving his teammates because his passes were just plain inaccurate, and he didn't know when to throw them.)

 

[JCSunsfan]

I would consider trading Daniels for Bev.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't want Beverley. At all. He is not starter quality. And this idea that he's perfect playing next to Booker? One guy who can't play offense next to a player who doesn't defend? That's turning one weakness into two IMO. If, IF, he were fully healthy he'd perhaps be an upgrade to our backup situation but that's not worth whatever it will take to get him from the Clippers. And we have no idea if he's ever going to be the player he was before micro-fracture surgery.

 

[1Sun]

And the DNP was the turning point for JJ. Not sure I even see your point. Up until that point JJ had been playing with Mike James. Yeah. That would frustrate anyone.

Canaan as well.

 

[1Sun]

I don't want Beverley. At all. He is not starter quality. And this idea that he's perfect playing next to Booker? One guy who can't play offense next to a player who doesn't defend? That's turning one weakness into two IMO. If, IF, he were fully healthy he'd perhaps be an upgrade to our backup situation but that's not worth whatever it will take to get him from the Clippers. And we have no idea if he's ever going to be the player he was before micro-fracture surgery.

Would you rather have another year of Canaan and Harrison? It was unwatchable last year, and Harrison was even more unwatchable in Summer League

 

[AzStevenCal]

Would you rather have another year of Canaan and Harrison? It was unwatchable last year, and Harrison was even more unwatchable in Summer League

Absolutely. I watched every game last season, did you? I didn't find it unwatchable - unbearable at times but not unwatchable. And I didn't sit there and think, wow, if we only had a point guard. We were horrible at multiple positions and rarely was point guard our worst matchup.

Beverley solves none of our problems. I want more than a 1 trick pony at PG and if he must have just 1 strength, it needs to be something other than defense. You can't win in today's NBA with a defend only PG IMO. I don't want a guard that will contribute to our matador defense but he has to be able to effectively run an offense.

 

[1Sun]

Absolutely. I watched every game last season, did you? I didn't find it unwatchable - unbearable at times but not unwatchable. And I didn't sit there and think, wow, if we only had a point guard. We were horrible at multiple positions and rarely was point guard our worst matchup.

Beverley solves none of our problems. I want more than a 1 trick pony at PG and if he must have just 1 strength, it needs to be something other than defense. You can't win in today's NBA with a defend only PG IMO. I don't want a guard that will contribute to our matador defense but he has to be able to effectively run an offense.

Absolutely. I watched every game last season, did you? I didn't find it unwatchable - unbearable at times but not unwatchable. And I didn't sit there and think, wow, if we only had a point guard. We were horrible at multiple positions and rarely was point guard our worst matchup.

Beverley solves none of our problems. I want more than a 1 trick pony at PG and if he must have just 1 strength, it needs to be something other than defense. You can't win in today's NBA with a defend only PG IMO. I don't want a guard that will contribute to our matador defense but he has to be able to effectively run an offense.

Yes, I watched every game, and while we were weak at multiple positions, I found myself thinking repeatedly that rather than merely being bad, this team was historically bad due to historically bad point guard play. I found myself longing for the days of Jay Humphries, Rod Foster, Elliot Perry and Negele Knight at the point. It was that hard to watch.

 

[Mainstreet]

If the Suns only keep three PGs, I want two of them to be Okobo and Melton. Invest in the future.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't want Beverley. At all. He is not starter quality. And this idea that he's perfect playing next to Booker? One guy who can't play offense next to a player who doesn't defend? That's turning one weakness into two IMO. If, IF, he were fully healthy he'd perhaps be an upgrade to our backup situation but that's not worth whatever it will take to get him from the Clippers. And we have no idea if he's ever going to be the player he was before micro-fracture surgery.

I think Beverley has a message for you.

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[AzStevenCal]

I love Sally Field.

Until earlier this offseason I knew nothing about Beverley that I liked. But he made an appearance on one of the ESPN NBA shows (the Jump, maybe?) and I was very impressed by him and what he had to say. I thought that guy would be a nice locker room addition. But having watched him play, I still don't relish the idea of him being on our team. I don't like to watch dirty players and I don't like point guards that can't run an offense effectively. He's both.

 

[Errntknght]

Booker overextended himself, forced things too much, wore down and ultimately got hurt.

Jackson went extreme on forcing things, played increasingly out of control and became visibly frustrated.

Bridges went into a shell and zoned out.

Ayton visibly grew increasingly frustrated and then zoned out.

The first game that Harrison played was Feb 24th. He played 8.3 mpg for 3 games. In March he played all 18 games averaging 15.5 minute. Five game in April averaging 26.5 minutes. Booker didn't play in April and before that Harrison played less than 1/3 of the game. Book started and Harrison came off the bench so they didn't play many minutes together. But somehhow you could see the deleterious effect he had on Booker? Total BS. Strange that the team was plus 47 pts when Harrison was on the floor (387 total minuets) while it averaged minus 74 pts, per 387 minutes when he wasn't playing. Sure luck played some role in that huge differential but to claim Harrrison was detrimental to the players while being such a boost for the team as a whole, is totally absurd - and demonstrates that your opinion is strongly biased regarding Harrison.

You carried that right over to the SL Blaming him for Jackson's awful play and Bridges zoning out is patently ridiculous. I grant you that Ayton was unhappy with some of his feed passes but Harrison did lead the team in assists by a big margin, so here you overemphasing the occasional bad play while ignoring the overall contribution.

 

[Mainstreet]

I love Sally Field.

Until earlier this offseason I knew nothing about Beverley that I liked. But he made an appearance on one of the ESPN NBA shows (the Jump, maybe?) and I was very impressed by him and what he had to say. I thought that guy would be a nice locker room addition. But having watched him play, I still don't relish the idea of him being on our team. I don't like to watch dirty players and I don't like point guards that can't run an offense effectively. He's both.

So maybe the Suns are interested in a different PG and this is all misdirection.

McDonough is good at this stuff. I had no idea the Suns would trade for Bridges or had interest in Ariza and Redick. The Knight/Chriss trade was surprising as well.

It's unbelievable how the media is pushing the Beverley idea.

 

[1Sun]

If the Suns only keep three PGs, I want two of them to be Okobo and Melton. Invest in the future.

I'm with you on keeping both, but at least one, if not both, really needs time in the G League.

 

[1Sun]

The first game that Harrison played was Feb 24th. He played 8.3 mpg for 3 games. In March he played all 18 games averaging 15.5 minute. Five game in April averaging 26.5 minutes. Booker didn't play in April and before that Harrison played less than 1/3 of the game. Book started and Harrison came off the bench so they didn't play many minutes together. But somehhow you could see the deleterious effect he had on Booker? Total BS. Strange that the team was plus 47 pts when Harrison was on the floor (387 total minuets) while it averaged minus 74 pts, per 387 minutes when he wasn't playing. Sure luck played some role in that huge differential but to claim Harrrison was detrimental to the players while being such a boost for the team as a whole, is totally absurd - and demonstrates that your opinion is strongly biased regarding Harrison.

You carried that right over to the SL Blaming him for Jackson's awful play and Bridges zoning out is patently ridiculous. I grant you that Ayton was unhappy with some of his feed passes but Harrison did lead the team in assists by a big margin, so here you overemphasing the occasional bad play while ignoring the overall contribution.

My reference to December was when Canaan played. I thought Harrison was merely bad when he played in March and April, as was the rest of the team. I thought Harrison was a danger to our young core when I watched him in Summer League. That was when I saw that he literally can't throw the simplest of passes or see even the most basic of offensive sets.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm with you on keeping both, but at least one, if not both, really needs time in the G League.

Neither PG is a finished product but I'd like to give them some time to see what the Suns have. I think the G-League is a good place to get playing time so I have no problem with it. And the NAZ Suns is close to Phoenix so they are only a phone call away.

 

[BC867]

Ha. It's before my time as well but I figured if anybody would get it, it'd be BC.

Yup, but I decided to go with the Payton to Ayton reference instead.

 

[Hoop Head]

If the Suns only keep three PGs, I want two of them to be Okobo and Melton. Invest in the future.

Would not surprise me to learn Melton's deal has taken a while because they're trying to get him on a Two-Way contract. We have one available and it would make sense given how we already have Harrison, Canaan, and Okobo. Melton and Okobo will be in the G-League a lot anyways, or they should be.

 

[Hoop Head]

Strange that the team was plus 47 pts when Harrison was on the floor (387 total minuets) while it averaged minus 74 pts, per 387 minutes when he wasn't playing. Sure luck played some role in that huge differential but to claim Harrrison was detrimental to the players while being such a boost for the team as a whole, is totally absurd - and demonstrates that your opinion is strongly biased regarding Harrison.

Harrison's plus/minus is luck. He had a +38 in the final game of the season when Alec Peters went off against the Mavericks to close out the season. If you take that game away then it's much more realistic and just a +9 over 22 games where he played 352 minutes. That is good considering the turd sandwich last season was but if he had just a +9 for the season I doubt people would be so quick to talk about how great his plus/minus is and bring it up in almost every argument in favor of using him. Here's a link to that game.

 

[Phrazbit]

Yes, I watched every game, and while we were weak at multiple positions, I found myself thinking repeatedly that rather than merely being bad, this team was historically bad due to historically bad point guard play. I found myself longing for the days of Jay Humphries, Rod Foster, Elliot Perry and Negele Knight at the point. It was that hard to watch.

It sounds like your problem was point guard play on the offense end. Beverly doesn't help that... at all. He cannot pass, he isn't a ball handler, he's slow and coming off a devastating injury.

The only thing I KNOW he does better than our current crop of point guards is injure opposing players.

We could use an upgrade, what we don't need is another backup quality point guard and coming off an injury I don't know that Beverly would even qualify as that.