2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

[devilalum]

Wow. Prove THAT. I would say if they are better it is MINIMALLY over Canaan and Shaq.

Love it how Suns fans think ANY point guard in the entire league is better than all 4 of ours.

At least our 4 all have potential.


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[1Sun]

At least our 4 all have potential.


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Okobo and Melton, absolutely, if they are brought along at an appropriate pace. Harrison and Canaan, not a chance, in my opinion.

 

[devilalum]

Okobo and Melton, absolutely. Harrison and Canaan, not a chance, in my opinion.

True but the Suns aren’t keeping all 4 of those guys anyway.

I’d rather have the potential of the two rookies than a known flawed commodity like Payton.


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[JCSunsfan]

No, but he's probably going to start calling Talking Stick Resort Arena, "Ayton Place".

If you get that, you are old.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Okobo and Melton, absolutely, if they are brought along at an appropriate pace. Harrison and Canaan, not a chance, in my opinion.

Its an odd bunch.

1. Canaan. Likely the best player of the bunch AT THE MOMENT if healthy. But he is what he is. Not much upside expected.
2. Harrison. Fantastic defensive player and energy guy. Not too old to add a shot--especially with Igor here. But adding a shot is not likely. Mediocre passer. Good back up. Outside chance at being a late-bloomer starter.
3. Melton. Really a complete unknown with what seems like a glimmer of potential. Watching him play, he doesn't seem that fast, but plays within himself. Has a slow release jumper that might be a problem.
4. Okobo. Possible starter, but a Barbosa type of career is probably his ceiling.

 

[Superbone]

If you get that, you are old.

Ha. It's before my time as well but I figured if anybody would get it, it'd be BC.

 

[1Sun]

Its an odd bunch.

1. Canaan. Likely the best player of the bunch AT THE MOMENT if healthy. But he is what he is. Not much upside expected.

1Sun comment: But he's not healthy, and he is barely above G League level when he is healthy. Really an okay third point guard or below average back-up if healthy, which he's not.

2. Harrison. Fantastic defensive player and energy guy. Not too old to add a shot--especially with Igor here. But adding a shot is not likely. Mediocre passer. Good back up. Outside chance at being a late-bloomer starter.

1Sun comment: Not just mediocre passer. Historically bad passer not even at an average high school level. I like him as an energy guy and defensive sub for 5-10 minutes a game tops. Other than that, he has no business being anywhere near the NBA.

3. Melton. Really a complete unknown with what seems like a glimmer of potential. Watching him play, he doesn't seem that fast, but plays within himself. Has a slow release jumper that might be a problem.

1Sun comment: For the sake of the rest of the team, it would be best to find those unknowns out in the G League rather than as the starting point guard.

4. Okobo. Possible starter, but a Barbosa type of career is probably his ceiling.

1Sun comment: And both of those are only if he is given the appropriate time and support to develop. That means not throwing him into the fire as an NBA starter right off the bat, for both his sake and that of the rest of the team, especially when he struggled as the back-up in Summer League against far inferior competition.

 

[1Sun]

Ha. It's before my time as well but I figured if anybody would get it, it'd be BC.

Sadly, I got it also. They used to make the old Payton Place reference with Gary Payton as well...

 

[Raindog]

The Suns best path forward is to get someone better than Canaan or Harrison to be a stopgap this year, and develop Melton and Okobo with some hope one (or both) shows enough to at least be a contributor if not a future possible starter by next season. But having to give the lion's share of minutes to either/both Canaan/Harrison this year pretty much means you give up on any measurable overall improvement by the team as a whole this year, and you play the waiting game until next year for an upgrade by trade, FA, or the draft.

 

[Chaplin]

The Suns best path forward is to get someone better than Canaan or Harrison to be a stopgap this year, and develop Melton and Okobo with some hope one (or both) shows enough to at least be a contributor if not a future possible starter by next season. But having to give the lion's share of minutes to either/both Canaan/Harrison this year pretty much means you give up on any measurable overall improvement by the team as a whole this year, and you play the waiting game until next year for an upgrade by trade, FA, or the draft.

Can't disagree more. Some people here are hinging our entire development for the whole year on a point guard not named Canaan, Harrison, Okobo or Melton. I just don't see how adding a Cory Joseph, Patrick Beverley or Spencer Dinwiddie would all of a sudden open the development doors on this team. That's ludicrous. All or nothing isn't realistic in this league.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Can't disagree more. Some people here are hinging our entire development for the whole year on a point guard not named Canaan, Harrison, Okobo or Melton. I just don't see how adding a Cory Joseph, Patrick Beverley or Spencer Dinwiddie would all of a sudden open the development doors on this team. That's ludicrous. All or nothing isn't realistic in this league.

If Beverly is a real, genuine upgrade over what we have, I can see some benefit, but I am not that convinced after microfracture surgery. I am not all that convinced that playing young guys lots of minutes would be harmful to them either. Gifting them minutes without accountability like Watson did with Chriss could be harmful. But behind Okobo and Melton you have young vets in Shaq and Canaan that can fill the role if you have to pull a young guy. I am all for making a trade if we see that player as a significant part of our future, if its just a stop gap for a year, we have enough of those right now in Ariza, Chandler, and even Ryan Anderson.

 

[1Sun]

The Suns best path forward is to get someone better than Canaan or Harrison to be a stopgap this year, and develop Melton and Okobo with some hope one (or both) shows enough to at least be a contributor if not a future possible starter by next season. But having to give the lion's share of minutes to either/both Canaan/Harrison this year pretty much means you give up on any measurable overall improvement by the team as a whole this year, and you play the waiting game until next year for an upgrade by trade, FA, or the draft.

And you risk serious damage to your young core's development and morale in the process, in my opinion.

 

[Chaplin]

And you risk serious damage to your young core's development and morale in the process, in my opinion.

This is the ultimate alarmist perspective.

 

[1Sun]

This is the ultimate alarmist perspective.

Only if you weren't paying attention to the obvious detrimental effect it had last season and in Summer League this year...

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't know how you can say this has been true in the past... but has tightened the belt considerably, while following that sentence up with him JUST jettisoning the Miami pick this summer. You're literally contradicting yourself within two sentences.

I was talking about McDonough valuing draft picks more than some past GMs.

At least the Suns are not using draft picks to dump salary like in the Kurt Thomas trade. Under McDonough, the Suns have worked to accumulate draft picks and build for the future. Trading the future Miami pick was a bit of a departure as the Suns enter win-now mode.

 

[Chaplin]

Only if you weren't paying attention to the obvious detrimental effect it had last season and in Summer League this year...

What "obvious" detrimental effects? Can you be specific? Elfrid Payton was our point guard last year, and in fact, when Canaan was our everyday point guard, he was fine.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was talking about McDonough valuing draft picks more than some past GMs.

At least the Suns are not using draft picks to dump salary like in the Kurt Thomas trade. Under McDonough, the Suns have worked to accumulate draft picks and build for the future. Trading the future Miami pick was a bit of a departure as the Suns enter win-now mode.

ah.

But the future Miami pick wasn't a departure considering we gave up the Lakers pick for garbage and didn't we give up picks and a player for Chriss as well?

McD might not be giving away picks for free like the KT deal, but he hasn't shown that he views them as the prize possessions a GM like Ainge has.

 

[Mainstreet]

ah.

But the future Miami pick wasn't a departure considering we gave up the Lakers pick for garbage and didn't we give up picks and a player for Chriss as well?

McD might not be giving away picks for free like the KT deal, but he hasn't shown that he views them as the prize possessions a GM like Ainge has.

Everything can be debated in hindsight. McDonough is certainly no Danny Ainge. I think he is under pressure to show a dramatic improvement with the Suns this season. If not, I don't think he will be running the show next summer.

I'm not saying the Suns have to have a winning record this season but they certainly need to show they have turned the corner. IMO, the pressure to win has affected his thinking as he switches to win-now mode. Trading the future Miami pick, signing Ariza, trading Knight/Chriss and going after Redick are examples. I'm hoping he doesn't giving up too much for a temporary point guard.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Everything can be debated in hindsight. McDonough is certainly no Danny Ainge. I think he is under pressure to show a dramatic improvement with the Suns this season. If not, I don't think he will be running the show next summer.

I'm not saying the Suns have to have a winning record this season but they certainly need to show they have turned the corner. IMO, the pressure to win has affected his thinking as he switches to win-now mode. Trading the future Miami pick, signing Ariza, trading Knight/Chriss and going after Redick are examples. I'm hoping he doesn't giving up too much for a temporary point guard.

you and me both.

 

[sunsfan88]

Pass and shoot. Harrison looked so-so last season, but in my opinion he was a disaster in Summer League, especially on offense and especially in terms of involving his teammates and facilitating Igor Kokoskov's offense.

Okobo and Melton do have potential, but neither is anywhere near NBA ready (though Melton did play circles around Harrison in Summer League). Frankly, both could use at least a season in the G League to get used to playing better competition and at a higher level and speed than their last level of competition.

I’ll give you shoot but Beverly is not a good passer either.

 

[Raindog]

Can't disagree more. Some people here are hinging our entire development for the whole year on a point guard not named Canaan, Harrison, Okobo or Melton. I just don't see how adding a Cory Joseph, Patrick Beverley or Spencer Dinwiddie would all of a sudden open the development doors on this team. That's ludicrous. All or nothing isn't realistic in this league.

My point is we are not going to win this year by playing Harrison or Canaan - we are essentially stuck in neutral no matter how much impact Ayton and Bridges have, or how much JJ, Bender, or other youngsters may have improved. And it seems clear to me that the Suns have no intention of handing over the starting job to either Melton or Okobo.

So the next best option is to get the best stopgap you can find at the most reasonable price, hope they are better than either Canaan or Harrison, which shouldn't be too difficult, and then hope that either Okobo or Melton shows some significant growth by next season... or go back to the drawing board and try to find a legit PG in what should be a better market next off-season.

All of the foregoing is with the assumption that the Suns really want to improve this year, and not just spend another season tanking for a better draft pick next year.

 

[1Sun]

What "obvious" detrimental effects? Can you be specific? Elfrid Payton was our point guard last year, and in fact, when Canaan was our everyday point guard, he was fine.

Booker overextended himself, forced things too much, wore down and ultimately got hurt.

Jackson went extreme on forcing things, played increasingly out of control and became visibly frustrated.

Bridges went into a shell and zoned out.

Ayton visibly grew increasingly frustrated and then zoned out.

 

[1Sun]

I’ll give you shoot but Beverly is not a good passer either.

Maybe not, but he is Steve Nash and Jason Kidd compared to the passing disaster that is Shaquill Harrison.

 

[1Sun]

My point is we are not going to win this year by playing Harrison or Canaan - we are essentially stuck in neutral no matter how much impact Ayton and Bridges have, or how much JJ, Bender, or other youngsters may have improved. And it seems clear to me that the Suns have no intention of handing over the starting job to either Melton or Okobo.

So the next best option is to get the best stopgap you can find at the most reasonable price, hope they are better than either Canaan or Harrison, which shouldn't be too difficult, and then hope that either Okobo or Melton shows some significant growth by next season... or go back to the drawing board and try to find a legit PG in what should be a better market next off-season.

All of the foregoing is with the assumption that the Suns really want to improve this year, and not just spend another season tanking for a better draft pick next year.

For me, it's not just about winning this year. It's about setting the team up for the future by developing good habits and a positive culture this year and by setting the young core on a positive path. That just can't and won't happen with Harrison or Canaan as the starting point guard, or with either of them getting any kind of significant playing time.

 

[JCSunsfan]

j

Booker overextended himself, forced things too much, wore down and ultimately got hurt.

Jackson went extreme on forcing things, played increasingly out of control and became visibly frustrated.

Bridges went into a shell and zoned out.

Ayton visibly grew increasingly frustrated and then zoned out.

OK. You cannot be talking about summer league, because Booker did not play in summer league.
You cannot be talking about last season, because Jackson's play improved dramatically over the year.
But you must be talking about summer league because Bridges and Ayton were not on the roster last year.
And, I do not remember Booker overextending himself and wearing down. He had an injury. They happen.

So, what in the world are you talking about?