2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

[1Sun]

It sounds like your problem was point guard play on the offense end. Beverly doesn't help that... at all. He cannot pass, he isn't a ball handler, he's slow and coming off a devastating injury.

The only thing I KNOW he does better than our current crop of point guards is injure opposing players.

We could use an upgrade, what we don't need is another backup quality point guard and coming off an injury I don't know that Beverly would even qualify as that.

I'm not a fan of Beverley offensively, but in my opinion he is light years ahead of Harrison on offense, even as a below average passer.

 

[Hoop Head]

If people were this caught up in adding Teodosic I could maybe understand but Beverly isn't much better than Canaan, IMO. Beverly hasn't even played since his microfracture surgery. He may be much worse than Canaan going forward. He's definitely not enough of an upgrade to part with any piece other than Daniels and a 2nd rounder. In fairness I would trade Daniels and a 2nd rounder for just about anyone though.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm not a fan of Beverley offensively, but in my opinion he is light years ahead of Harrison on offense, even as a below average passer.

I don't think Harrison can pass either, I don't think he can even see a player if they're in motion, he's like a reverse T-Rex. But I think Beverly is every bit as useless trying to create.

Again, I think we are going to really hurt at the point, but I don't think Beverly addresses any of our questions. He was a bad offensive player and REALLY bad at creating on offense BEFORE he has one of the worst injuries an NBA player can have.

I wouldn't take him for free. The idea of trading for him is nauseating.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Canaan as well.

. No. Canaan was looking like a passable starting pg before he was injured. Not a long term answer but not much different than than the other options we were looking at.

 

[Mainstreet]

Would not surprise me to learn Melton's deal has taken a while because they're trying to get him on a Two-Way contract. We have one available and it would make sense given how we already have Harrison, Canaan, and Okobo. Melton and Okobo will be in the G-League a lot anyways, or they should be.

I agree it makes sense but I'd like for the Suns to sign Melton to a multiyear contract like they did with Ulis and Okobo. If they want to do this they will need to clear salary space. My understanding is Melton can be signed to a 2 year two-way contract.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If people were this caught up in adding Teodosic I could maybe understand but Beverly isn't much better than Canaan, IMO. Beverly hasn't even played since his microfracture surgery. He may be much worse than Canaan going forward. He's definitely not enough of an upgrade to part with any piece other than Daniels and a 2nd rounder. In fairness I would trade Daniels and a 2nd rounder for just about anyone though.

I don't get the Daniels hate. I see a lot of it but I don't understand it. He is a great 3rd or 4th option off the bench. It's not his fault we forced him into a starter or 6th man role. Getting rid of him weakens our bench. Of course, playing him major minutes weakens our team but the 4th player off the bench shouldn't be logging major minutes. I'm okay trading him for a real upgrade but I wouldn't be looking to just add him to any old trade. JMO.

 

[Errntknght]

I don't get the Daniels hate. I see a lot of it but I don't understand it. He is a great 3rd or 4th option off the bench. It's not his fault we forced him into a starter or 6th man role. Getting rid of him weakens our bench. Of course, playing him major minutes weakens our team but the 4th player off the bench shouldn't be logging major minutes. I'm okay trading him for a real upgrade but I wouldn't be looking to just add him to any old trade. JMO.

In general I like having a gunner on the team but Daniels is just too bad at everthing but shooting. He had either the worst or near worst rate at every other category. FTA, reb, asts, blocks, steals (Bender, Chandler and Peters were slightly worse, but Len topped him). His TO's weren't that bad but his ast/TO was 0.8, below 1/2 the average for SGs. That means he isn't even making the routine plays. He's also a terrible defender.

 

[AzStevenCal]

In general I like having a gunner on the team but Daniels is just too bad at everthing but shooting. He had either the worst or near worst rate at every other category. FTA, reb, asts, blocks, steals (Bender, Chandler and Peters were slightly worse, but Len topped him). His TO's weren't that bad but his ast/TO was 0.8, below 1/2 the average for SGs. That means he isn't even making the routine plays. He's also a terrible defender.

There's no question that he's a one trick pony. But his trick is the single most important trick in the game so that's why I see him as the 4th player off the bench even with his limitations. Again, though, how do you or anyone hold him responsible for having to succeed as a Booker replacement when he's often the only threat out there? He simply isn't good enough for that kind of attention. If he was as hard to guard as Booker he wouldn't be a deep bench guy.

 

[Phrazbit]

There's no question that he's a one trick pony. But his trick is the single most important trick in the game so that's why I see him as the 4th player off the bench even with his limitations. Again, though, how do you or anyone hold him responsible for having to succeed as a Booker replacement when he's often the only threat out there? He simply isn't good enough for that kind of attention. If he was as hard to guard as Booker he wouldn't be a deep bench guy.

Yeah, I agree. When Booker is out our grab bag of young guards will need a reliable shooter to look for.

Okobo is probably our guard with the best potential but IMO he's going to be pretty damn raw. When Dragic first came over he looked like garbage, then we put some shooters around him, like Frye and Dudley, and he flourished. Then he didn't have shooters the next year and was a dumpster fire again.

We need floor spacing, we need balance on offense. Daniels does only one thing, but he does it well and he also isn't going to go ball hogging like a lot of backup 3pt shooters do. Overall, I expect Daniels will hurt us on the plus/minus end of things more than he helps, but I think having a bit of balance will help the team develop, instead of our 2nd unit being a bunch of pimply kids who all want to he a hero.

Also, Steve, I like having your around. You're probably the least alarmist poster on the board and you never rip other views. You're great. Pleeeeeeease stick through the first month or so of the season when things are likely to be a lil knee jerky.

 

[Hoop Head]

I don't get the Daniels hate. I see a lot of it but I don't understand it. He is a great 3rd or 4th option off the bench. It's not his fault we forced him into a starter or 6th man role. Getting rid of him weakens our bench. Of course, playing him major minutes weakens our team but the 4th player off the bench shouldn't be logging major minutes. I'm okay trading him for a real upgrade but I wouldn't be looking to just add him to any old trade. JMO.

I don't hate Daniels or even dislike him, I just don't see a role for him going forward. Ideally Reed and Bridges will take his minutes as shooters off the bench behind Booker. Both of them can play good defense while Daniels is a bit of a matador. Daniels is almost like an Eddie House type who can come in and get hot from outside to keep you in a game or get you a nice lead. When his shot isn't falling he hurts more than helps on the floor. We have other players that can take his minutes who don't become liabilities or hurt the team when their shot isn't falling.

Since his contract is expiring and reasonable I think he can be useful to use in a trade somewhere. Almost all teams would like to add good shooters and since he's only on the books for about $3.5 million this season and expires at years end, he probably has some value in a deal. I don't think he has a lot of value but he's probably more attractive than a 2nd round pick.

I'd much rather part with Daniels in a deal than Warren or someone else. We don't have a lot of tradable players on the roster right now. Daniels is one of the few we do have.

 

[Phrazbit]

I don't hate Daniels or even dislike him, I just don't see a role for him going forward. Ideally Reed and Bridges will take his minutes as shooters off the bench behind Booker. Both of them can play good defense while Daniels is a bit of a matador. Daniels is almost like an Eddie House type who can come in and get hot from outside to keep you in a game or get you a nice lead. When his shot isn't falling he hurts more than helps on the floor. We have other players that can take his minutes who don't become liabilities or hurt the team when their shot isn't falling.

Since his contract is expiring and reasonable I think he can be useful to use in a trade somewhere. Almost all teams would like to add good shooters and since he's only on the books for about $3.5 million this season and expires at years end, he probably has some value in a deal. I don't think he has a lot of value but he's probably more attractive than a 2nd round pick.

I'd much rather part with Daniels in a deal than Warren or someone else. We don't have a lot of tradable players on the roster right now. Daniels is one of the few we do have.

I think Bridges is going to be a good player, I think Reed... has hope. But I'm not ready to proclaim that a rookie and a guy who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn last year are ready to be much needed shooting options.

And before it gets mentioned, yeah, it's nice that they shot well in summer league, it's better than them sucking, but I don't value summer league stats as predictors in the slightest.

 

[95pro]

Will microfracture hinder Beverly's game?

I don't hate Daniels or even dislike him, I just don't see a role for him going forward. Ideally Reed and Bridges will take his minutes as shooters off the bench behind Booker. Both of them can play good defense while Daniels is a bit of a matador. Daniels is almost like an Eddie House type who can come in and get hot from outside to keep you in a game or get you a nice lead. When his shot isn't falling he hurts more than helps on the floor. We have other players that can take his minutes who don't become liabilities or hurt the team when their shot isn't falling.

Since his contract is expiring and reasonable I think he can be useful to use in a trade somewhere. Almost all teams would like to add good shooters and since he's only on the books for about $3.5 million this season and expires at years end, he probably has some value in a deal. I don't think he has a lot of value but he's probably more attractive than a 2nd round pick.

I'd much rather part with Daniels in a deal than Warren or someone else. We don't have a lot of tradable players on the roster right now. Daniels is one of the few we do have.

Can never have enough shooters in todays game.

I like having a shooter on the deep end of the bench. Is Daniels starter material? No. Do we have some rookies and vets who can both shoot and defend? Yes.

Daniels falls in after them. His contract and the fact that it ends soon is appealing though.

 

[Chaplin]

My reference to December was when Canaan played. I thought Harrison was merely bad when he played in March and April, as was the rest of the team. I thought Harrison was a danger to our young core when I watched him in Summer League. That was when I saw that he literally can't throw the simplest of passes or see even the most basic of offensive sets.

Again, WHY do you put so much stock in Summer League? If you are using that as a barometer for Shaq, why aren’t you calling for Bridges to be traded or out of our rotation?

Summer League is what it is—glorified pick up games. There is no concerted effort to actually run an offense, mainly because at least half the team are guys that a) are auditioning for jobs and b) had less than a week with new coaches and teammates. Regardless of who is coaching you are NEVER going to see good basketball.

Using that philosophy I’m wondering why you don’t think Melton can be the starting point guard right now since he actually had a very good Summer League, or at least, very good when it comes to that league’s standards. If you are dead set at using Summer League to vilify players, than you have to equally use it to prop them up.

Davon Reed was BY FAR our best player in Summer League, but his name hasn’t even been mentioned this summer by anyone on this board.

 

[95pro]

Again, WHY do you put so much stock in Summer League? If you are using that as a barometer for Shaq, why aren’t you calling for Bridges to be traded or out of our rotation?

Summer League is what it is—glorified pick up games. There is no concerted effort to actually run an offense, mainly because at least half the team are guys that a) are auditioning for jobs and b) had less than a week with new coaches and teammates. Regardless of who is coaching you are NEVER going to see good basketball.

Using that philosophy I’m wondering why you don’t think Melton can be the starting point guard right now since he actually had a very good Summer League, or at least, very good when it comes to that league’s standards. If you are dead set at using Summer League to vilify players, than you have to equally use it to prop them up.

Davon Reed was BY FAR our best player in Summer League, but his name hasn’t even been mentioned this summer by anyone on this board.

Probably because Harrison (I hate calling him shaq, there's only one Shaq) has logged actual game time (23 games) and somewhat substantial minutes (16 minutes), was drafted a while back and is now 24 years old.

Reed injured, no actual games to evaluate him, just garbage time.
Melton still unproven, no actual games as well.

So we kind of know what Harrison is, whether its NBA games or Summer League games. Bridges, Reed and Melton are really unknown at this point.

On a side note, I thought Bridges did good in summer league.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Can't disagree more. Some people here are hinging our entire development for the whole year on a point guard not named Canaan, Harrison, Okobo or Melton. I just don't see how adding a Cory Joseph, Patrick Beverley or Spencer Dinwiddie would all of a sudden open the development doors on this team. That's ludicrous. All or nothing isn't realistic in this league.

I agree. It completely discounts the improvement a (hopefully) better coaching regime, a couple vets, additional high level draft talent, and continued development of our young guys would have on the season which is just being obtuse to forward a flimsy argument.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Only if you weren't paying attention to the obvious detrimental effect it had last season and in Summer League this year...

Fake news

 

[1Sun]

Again, WHY do you put so much stock in Summer League? If you are using that as a barometer for Shaq, why aren’t you calling for Bridges to be traded or out of our rotation?

Summer League is what it is—glorified pick up games. There is no concerted effort to actually run an offense, mainly because at least half the team are guys that a) are auditioning for jobs and b) had less than a week with new coaches and teammates. Regardless of who is coaching you are NEVER going to see good basketball.

Using that philosophy I’m wondering why you don’t think Melton can be the starting point guard right now since he actually had a very good Summer League, or at least, very good when it comes to that league’s standards. If you are dead set at using Summer League to vilify players, than you have to equally use it to prop them up.

Davon Reed was BY FAR our best player in Summer League, but his name hasn’t even been mentioned this summer by anyone on this board.

I don't put stock in Summer League in terms of being an indicator of success in the NBA for the reasons you set forth here. I DO, however, see it as a very bad sign if a player struggles in Summer League, especially if that player demonstrates a lack of certain fundamental skills both there and in regular season play. (For the same reason, I am about ready to give up on Bender, and I think Josh Jackson has regressed.)

 

[1Sun]

Probably because Harrison (I hate calling him shaq, there's only one Shaq) has logged actual game time (23 games) and somewhat substantial minutes (16 minutes), was drafted a while back and is now 24 years old.

Reed injured, no actual games to evaluate him, just garbage time.
Melton still unproven, no actual games as well.

So we kind of know what Harrison is, whether its NBA games or Summer League games. Bridges, Reed and Melton are really unknown at this point.

On a side note, I thought Bridges did good in summer league.

This...except that Bridges had a very good first game in Summer League (which also happened to be the only truly good game Harrison had in Summer League) and then disappeared.

 

[Chaplin]

O

This...except that Bridges had a very good first game in Summer League (which also happened to be the only truly good game Harrison had in Summer League) and then disappeared.

so did Okobo...

 

[1Sun]

O

so did Okobo...

Okobo had an okay game in Summer League and then was awful. Bridges at least looked close to being ready for a limited role in the NBA. Then again, we have four wings (Booker, Ariza, Jackson and Warren) ahead of Bridges on our depth chart, so he has time to adjust. Arguably, Okobo is the best point guard we have on our roster right now, despite being nowhere near NBA ready.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Everyone saying Beverley is a one trick pony is missing his second trick . . . 3 point shooting. He’s a career 38% 3 point shooter on some volume (I believe 4+ shots per game). He’s definitely not a penetrator or facilitator, but pre-injury at least he was a premier 3-D at the pg position. Don’t know if he still is post-microfracture, but he did possess two crucial elements we are seeking. Alongside a creative 2 guard and potentially creative sf (JJ hopefully) that’s not a terrible skill set to have.

 

[1Sun]

Everyone saying Beverley is a one trick pony is missing his second trick . . . 3 point shooting. He’s a career 38% 3 point shooter on some volume (I believe 4+ shots per game). He’s definitely not a penetrator or facilitator, but pre-injury at least he was a premier 3-D at the pg position. Don’t know if he still is post-microfracture, but he did possess two crucial elements we are seeking. Alongside a creative 2 guard and potentially creative sf (JJ hopefully) that’s not a terrible skill set to have.

More to the point, it is better than any skill set any of our current point guards have, significantly better if he is healthy (which of course is as big of a question mark as it is with Canaan). That being said, I still believe there are better options out there (not internally) than Beverley, and I wouldn't give up more than a future second round pick or two to take a flier on him.

 

[Chaplin]

Okobo had an okay game in Summer League and then was awful. Bridges at least looked close to being ready for a limited role in the NBA. Then again, we have four wings (Booker, Ariza, Jackson and Warren) ahead of Bridges on our depth chart, so he has time to adjust. Arguably, Okobo is the best point guard we have on our roster right now, despite being nowhere near NBA ready.

No, he had a good game, a mediocre to poor game and was injured the rest of the summer.

 

[1Sun]

First game against the Mavericks - 9 points on 4 for 8 shooting, 1-3 from three point range, no free throws, 6 assists, 4 turnovers, 4 fouls and a +6 rating against Summer League back-ups.

Second game against the Kings - 0 points on 0 for 5 shooting, 0-3 from three point range, no free throws, 3 assists, 0 turnovers, 3 fouls and a +2 rating against Summer League back-ups.

Third game against the Magic - 0 points 0 for 4 shooting, no three point or free throw attempts, 3 assists, 2 turnovers, no fouls and a -7 rating against Summer League back-ups.

Only played 1 minute against the 76ers and didn't play against the Spurs.

Plus in terms of the eye test, the NBA game just appeared to be too fast for him at this point.

I think Okobo has potential down the road, but again at this early stage he really couldn't keep up, even against scrubs that will be playing in the G League this year.

(Shaq Harrison, meanwhile, had a great first game statistically, had a terrible second game all around, had good assist/turnover numbers but terrible shooting numbers in the third game, was mediocre across the board in the fourth game and had good but not great numbers in the fifth game. More to the point, though, he was noticeably bad at involving his teammates because his passes were just plain inaccurate, and he didn't know when to throw them.)

Just a reminder for Chaplin on Okobo. In what universe is this a good game, then anything other than an awful game, then injured?

 

[Chaplin]

Just a reminder for Chaplin on Okobo. In what universe is this a good game, then anything other than an awful game, then injured?

My bad, 2 poor games, although the first of those 2 he was a +2 on the floor.

Summer League backups! Funny! For the most part, EVERYONE is a backup in Summer League. Including Okobo.

But by all means, let's continue to praise the skills of EVERY other point guard in the NBA other than the 4 we have on our roster, because you know, that will determine whether Ayton is the next coming of Hakeem or the the next Anthony Bennett.

You're picking and choosing things to support an argument that on the whole doesn't add up.