2018 EuroLeague Final Four

[ColdPickleNachos]

Blah. Ayton first.

I agree. But it's healthy to consider opposing opinions.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Was this the first time you watched him for an entire game? Amazing how quickly you can see that the top three knocks on him are simply not true. That kid is gonna be a hell of a player.

I've watched the majority of a couple games with some fast forwarding and moving through parts where Doncic is on the bench or during uneventful stretches, but this is the first game I've watched live, start-to-finish to get a full feel. The athleticism knock is a little weird to me. I don't see it being an issue at all. If the Suns were picking 2nd, I would be VERY excited bout Doncic.

 

[francosy]

I've been watching Doncic since he was 11. Amazing kid, he had played with 3 or 4 years older players when he was at that age.

Don't look just for his stats. He is absolutely better 3pt shooter then it looks, but he takes a lot of difficult shots. Real Madrid has quite slow squad (Doncic is not slow, but other players), and (IMO) bad coach. They often run out of time in attack and Luka or Sergio Llulll (he was named as Euroleague MVP last year, but then he injured) have to shoot in last seconds. In that element, Luka is really great, much better then Llul.

Also, Luka is extremely good passer, but slightly inexperienced, so he make a turnover sometimes, and proficient rebounder. In last few months he improved his defense, which is now quite good, but was bad at the start of the season.

If I hear someone that he is slow or nonathletic, I think that she/he doesn't watch him a lot. Luka has a potential in that area for sure, but guys, he is 19, give him time to fulfill it.

And stats about last game... That was semifinals, the most important game for Real Madrid in the season. The pressure was very high, also draft lottery pumped-up that pressure, Doncic said that he would like to go to Suns. I thought that he will play much worse, like last year on Euroleague Final4. But he was actually player of the game.

 

[Cheesebeef]

[

I've been watching Doncic since he was 11. Amazing kid, he had played with 3 or 4 years older players when he was at that age.

Don't look just for his stats. He is absolutely better 3pt shooter then it looks, but he takes a lot of difficult shots. Real Madrid has quite slow squad (Doncic is not slow, but other players), and (IMO) bad coach. They often run out of time in attack and Luka or Sergio Llull have to shoot in last seconds. In that element, Luka is really great, much better then Llull (he was named as the best player in Euroleague, but then he injured).

Also, Luka is extremely good passer, but slightly inexperienced, so he make a turnover sometimes, and proficient rebounder. In last few months he improved his defense, which is now quite good, but was bad at the start of the season.

If I hear someone that he is slow or nonathletic, I think that she/he doesn't watch him a lot. Luka has a potential in that area for sure, but guys, he is 19, give him time to fulfill it.

I guess here's my question... are other teams "quite slow squads" like Real Madrid? If so, doesn't it make it really hard to gauge Doncic's athleticism and how it will translate to the NBA where it's literally the best athletes in the world? The argument I see being made is Doncic is so much further ahead than anyone else in the draft because he's playing against grown men who are mature. And yes... that DOES speak very well of anyone young and inexperienced to display that kind of poise against guys who have been playing for a while. But, by the same token, those guys aren't NEAR the athletes in the NBA, so how can anyone state with any authority that he's got the necessary athleticism to play in the NBA when the class of athlete overseas pales in comparison to the league.

Isn't it possible he might just look faster/more athletic there because he's playing against "quite slow squads"?

 

[Raindog]

[


I guess here's my question... are other teams "quite slow squads" like Real Madrid? If so, doesn't it make it really hard to gauge Doncic's athleticism and how it will translate to the NBA where it's literally the best athletes in the world? The argument I see being made is Doncic is so much further ahead than anyone else in the draft because he's playing against grown men who are mature. And yes... that DOES speak very well of anyone young and inexperienced to display that kind of poise against guys who have been playing for a while. But, by the same token, those guys aren't NEAR the athletes in the NBA, so how can anyone state with any authority that he's got the necessary athleticism to play in the NBA when the class of athlete overseas pales in comparison to the league.

Isn't it possible he might just look faster/more athletic there because he's playing against "quite slow squads"?

My question mark/concern about him, as well. I watched many clips of Doncic since the buzz on him started building... and it always seems to me whenever he looks "special," he is playing against slow, clumsy defenders.

And not that he's MAKING them look slow and clumsy... that they ARE slow and clumsy.

 

[francosy]

[


I guess here's my question... are other teams "quite slow squads" like Real Madrid? If so, doesn't it make it really hard to gauge Doncic's athleticism and how it will translate to the NBA where it's literally the best athletes in the world? The argument I see being made is Doncic is so much further ahead than anyone else in the draft because he's playing against grown men who are mature. And yes... that DOES speak very well of anyone young and inexperienced to display that kind of poise against guys who have been playing for a while. But, by the same token, those guys aren't NEAR the athletes in the NBA, so how can anyone state with any authority that he's got the necessary athleticism to play in the NBA when the class of athlete overseas pales in comparison to the league.

Isn't it possible he might just look faster/more athletic there because he's playing against "quite slow squads"?

It depends which team you are looking. In Euroleague, you have some Spanish, Russian, etc. teams, that play slow basket. But on the other hand, teams from France, sometimes Turkey, Germany etc. have usually quick teams. Maybe not compared to NBA, but... Danny Green (Spurs) used to play for Slovenian team in lock-out. He was quite slow for European standard, also Parker in last years. Doncic has extremely long legs for point guard and can use it as advantage. On the other hand, Dragic is faster then Luka.

He probably won't be the fastest player in the league, but I don't think that it is that concerning. He is much smarter than majority of players in NBA and he knows how to use that.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It depends which team you are looking. In Euroleague, you have some Spanish, Russian, etc. teams, that play slow basket. But on the other hand, teams from France, sometimes Turkey, Germany etc. have usually quick teams. Maybe not compared to NBA, but... Danny Green (Spurs) used to play for Slovenian team in lock-out. He was quite slow for European standard, also Parker in last years. Doncic has extremely long legs for point guard and can use it as advantage. On the other hand, Dragic is faster then Luka.

He probably won't be the fastest player in the league, but I don't think that it is that concerning. He is much smarter than majority of players in NBA and he knows how to use that.

Are you his agent?

 

[francosy]

Are you his agent?

No. But surely I know him better than you. And maybe better than anyone here.

My biggest concern about him was his defense. But his improvement has been huge in the last months.

 

[Chaplin]

No. But surely I know him better than you. And maybe better than anyone here.

My biggest concern about him was his defense. But his improvement has been huge in the last months.

Really? That may be true, but you certainly haven't stated your credentials to show you know him "better than" JC at this point.

 

[hsandhu]

Are you his agent?

I would suggest ignoring some of these euro posters when talking about doncic. He is their Great Hope, they'll spin anything for him.

 

[francosy]

I would suggest ignoring some of these euro posters when talking about doncic. He is their Great Hope, they'll spin anything for him.

Guess what, you are probably right Or even better explanation - we simply don't want that he goes to Kings. This is one of those poopy clubs in the NBA. In that case, it's better to stay in Real Madrid.

But putting this beside, I can assure you, you will be positively surprised, when he comes to NBA.

 

[Hoop Head]

I would suggest ignoring some of these euro posters when talking about doncic. He is their Great Hope, they'll spin anything for him.

I think that's a bit much. I would take their posts with a grain of salt but I wouldn't say they should be ignored. Until they've posted enough to show that they know more than just Euro League basketball though their take shouldn't be regarded as anything more than that of a Doncic fan.

 

[francosy]

I think that's a bit much. I would take their posts with a grain of salt but I wouldn't say they should be ignored. Until they've posted enough to show that they know more than just Euro League basketball though their take shouldn't be regarded as anything more than that of a Doncic fan.

As probably you can see under my avatar, I'm from Slovenia, which is Doncic's homeland. Yes, I'm his fan, but truly, I know him really good. I first met him, when he was 11 and he played on our elementary school (I was at that time 15). I was impressed, I knew that he was special.

At that time, he played for Olimpija's (former club of Dragic, Danny Green, Baynes, Bertans...) young selections. At the age of 13 he went to Real Madrid. Honestly, I was mad at him as a huge fan of Olimpija. But when I saw that he is scoring 40, 50 points for Madrid's junior team, I knew that Olimpija is too bad club for him.

I suggest that you watch matches from Eurobasket 2017. He played for Slovenian NT and they took the trophy, lead by Kokoskov (as you all probably know). Maybe you are not fully aware of that success, but that was a miracle. Span, Serbia, Latvia, France, Russia... they all had much better teams in theory. Dragic played for NT for some years, and Slovenia wasn't even close to the trophy, so he wasn't a key. But Luka... He just makes teammates better. He scores, he assists, he rebounds, he scores buzzer beaters... His impact is amazing. He puts the team on a higher level, his leadership is marvelous. I know that majority of you are in doubts, but he will prove you're wrong as he come to NBA. To Suns or any other team.

 

[Good Guy]

@francosy How do you compare Doncic's current game to Bogdan Bogdanovic's current game? I know Bogdan is a bit smaller and a few years older, but their styles seem somewhat similar to me, although Doncic has the ball in his hands more. I guess I really just want to know what Bogdan can do better than Doncic right now. I like Bogdan, and of course he isn't a #1 overall pick talent, but if Doncic is already as good as Bogdan, then we know we're already past Darko-level bust potential.

 

[francosy]

@francosy How do you compare Doncic's current game to Bogdan Bogdanovic's current game? I know Bogdan is a bit smaller and a few years older, but their styles seem somewhat similar to me, although Doncic has the ball in his hands more. I guess I really just want to know what Bogdan can do better than Doncic right now. I like Bogdan, and of course he isn't a #1 overall pick talent, but if Doncic is already as good as Bogdan, then we know we're already past Darko-level bust potential.

First of all, I have to say that I really like the way how Bogdan plays. At this point, he is surely more efficient and consistent 3pt shooter, he has quicker shot release. I believe that Lukas and Bogdans speed is somehow on the same level. But Doncic is far more intelligent player than Bogdan. Actually, you see very rarely such a high IQ in the NBA. Luka is also better rebounder and has much better court vision and feeling for assists.

Forget about Darko. His major problem was lack of IQ and this is not the case here. Doncic has been also educated in a basketball professional manner since he went to Madrid. He was forbidden to give any interviews until the age of 18, also the club was very strict with him. I think that this is very important for the NBA, because a lot of prospect fails because of $$$, alcohol or even "groupies". Doncic already earns a lot of money in Real Madrid and he can cope that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Really? That may be true, but you certainly haven't stated your credentials to show you know him "better than" JC at this point.

He said he’s watched hims since Luka was 11. I don’t know what “credentials” you’re seeking, but that probably affords him more insight into Doncic than near most everyone on this board. The veracity of his comments is certainly open to question as we don’t know the quality of his opinion/analysis. But assuming we accept that people don’t come onto ASFN to just lie, the volume of his experience likely garners some weight (at least in my opinion).

 

[JCSunsfan]

He said he’s watched hims since Luka was 11. I don’t know what “credentials” you’re seeking, but that probably affords him more insight into Doncic than near most everyone on this board. The veracity of his comments is certainly open to question as we don’t know the quality of his opinion/analysis. But assuming we accept that people don’t come onto ASFN to just lie, the volume of his experience likely garners some weight (at least in my opinion).

I do not disbelieve him. I think his comparison of Doncic and Bogdanovic sounds reasonable. We just have to remember that Bogdanovic was a second rounder. When I watch the NT games from last summer though, Luka looks like a positive player within the team concept but not the star player. Goran stands out more. I think Luka is going to be a very good NBA player, I am just not sure #1 over Ayton.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I do not disbelieve him. I think his comparison of Doncic and Bogdanovic sounds reasonable. We just have to remember that Bogdanovic was a second rounder. When I watch the NT games from last summer though, Luka looks like a positive player within the team concept but not the star player. Goran stands out more. I think Luka is going to be a very good NBA player, I am just not sure #1 over Ayton.

I don’t see any long time suns fans that aren’t Europeans touting him #1 over Ayton. When can we abandon that narrative, empty argument?

And last summer is a year ago. In the maturation of young players that’s a lifetime. Last year Trae Young wasn’t very highly regarded. We don’t look at tape of US prospects from high school which would be the equivalent of looking at Doncic last summer, so why do people keep doing that with Doncic?

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don’t see any long time suns fans that aren’t Europeans touting him #1 over Ayton. When can we abandon that narrative, empty argument?

And last summer is a year ago. In the maturation of young players that’s a lifetime. Last year Trae Young wasn’t very highly regarded. We don’t look at tape of US prospects from high school which would be the equivalent of looking at Doncic last summer, so why do people keep doing that with Doncic?

Sorry. I post on two other boards (realgm and Phx-suns.net) and the Doncic over Ayton sentiment runs very strong on both of them. In fact, they are both about equal on both boards. On the phx-suns.net board, the initial poll was 2-1 in favor of Doncic. So I tend to carry those arguments here.

We look at that tape because that is where we see him playing against NBA players, playing under Kokoskov, and we can see whole games. We have to assume he made strides since then. The comparison with Young doesn't hold up because Young was not playing on a pro level last summer, Doncic was. If we had tape of Young playing against pros last summer, we should be looking at it.

 

[francosy]

I do not disbelieve him. I think his comparison of Doncic and Bogdanovic sounds reasonable. We just have to remember that Bogdanovic was a second rounder. When I watch the NT games from last summer though, Luka looks like a positive player within the team concept but not the star player. Goran stands out more. I think Luka is going to be a very good NBA player, I am just not sure #1 over Ayton.

Last summer Luka was 18. Man, majority of players at that age can't even play anything on that level. And that was his first games with NT. Goran is very experienced, he was surely the first player of the team, but also because of hierarchy. Doncic was selected in the first all-tournament team - in front of players like Schroder, Belinelli, Markkanen, Fournier, Valanciounas, Saric... and beside Dragic (MVP), Shved, Bogdan and Pau Gasol. At the age of 18.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Last summer Luka was 18. Man, majority of players at that age can't even play anything on that level. And that was his first games with NT. Goran is very experienced, he was surely the first player of the team, but also because of hierarchy. Doncic was selected in the first all-tournament team - in front of players like Schroder, Belinelli, Markkanen, Fournier, Valanciounas, Saric... and beside Dragic (MVP), Shved, Bogdan and Pau Gasol. At the age of 18.

Luka is a prodigy, no doubt.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

.

We look at that tape because that is where we see him playing against NBA players, playing under Kokoskov, and we can see whole games. We have to assume he made strides since then. The comparison with Young doesn't hold up because Young was not playing on a pro level last summer, Doncic was. If we had tape of Young playing against pros last summer, we should be looking at it.

Yeah I don’t buy this. The evolution of an 18 year old over a year is ENORMOUS. I think tape from last year has little authority.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

The final is about to start!

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Doncic started the game by air-balling a 3. Since then, he's been aggressive.

Real Madrid is down 11-6, but Doncic has all 6 points.

 

[SirStefan32]

Not getting much help. Just now someone hit a three.