2021 Training Camp Thread

[QuebecCard]

QB's have long called their own plays based on what they see on the field and they are in communication with the OC/HC until the clock hits 15 seconds. The QB is the HC's man on the field, but you get your ass if the QB changes a call and gets it wrong the HC/OC is going to chew them out over it (Well, all of them but Kliff).

Heck why don't we just let the team do what they want? I don't know why we bother having a HC. Let Kyler call the plays, let the WR's run whatever routes they want and the OL block who they like. DB's can all fight over covering WR3 so they look good.

There's a big difference between collaboration and listening to your vets, and just letting them do what they like.

This line sums up the problem "You've got two veteran players who I'm sure would like to get to the playoffs and maybe a super bowl some day." The natural second line to that is "and they have better chance deciding their own routes than having the guys who's job it is do it for them".

It is only a receiver, so one of the coaches can talk to the quarterback but the quarterback cannot talk back to the coach. And the system is shut off automatically when the play clock reaches 15 seconds. So there is no communication between that 15-second mark and the end of the down.

Keep this time constraint in mind, I suggest.

You seem to have a rather static view of football and on the surface you are right, but, the static Strategy of the game is modified by more fluid Tactics and depends on the talents of 11 men for the Execution of the given play. Wideouts are reporting back to the huddle with info from the field of play continuously, and the QB digests and adjusts. I interpret KK's statement in light of these fast-emerging tactical points and indicating that Nuk, Green, and Tyler have some flexibility within the given play. In addition, Kyler can 'audible' if need be.

If NUK and Green flip 'X' and 'Y" because they spot a weakness, we add to the flexibility of the offence, which many have said is too set-piece.

The idea that they'd clear this modification prior to a play is virtually impossible, and one can be fairly certain that they've been doing 'switches' on the fly in practice.

So... other than your seeming need to bash KK at every turn, much ado about nothing.

In the immortal words of Coach Hank Stram, it's all about: "matriculate the ball down the field" - nothing more, nothing less.

 

[gimpy]

I think there's a movie about that.

Tom Cruise movie, I think.

 

[BritCard]

It is only a receiver, so one of the coaches can talk to the quarterback but the quarterback cannot talk back to the coach. And the system is shut off automatically when the play clock reaches 15 seconds. So there is no communication between that 15-second mark and the end of the down.

Keep this time constraint in mind, I suggest.

You seem to have a rather static view of football and on the surface you are right, but, the static Strategy of the game is modified by more fluid Tactics and depends on the talents of 11 men for the Execution of the given play. Wideouts are reporting back to the huddle with info from the field of play continuously, and the QB digests and adjusts. I interpret KK's statement in light of these fast-emerging tactical points and indicating that Nuk, Green, and Tyler have some flexibility within the given play. In addition, Kyler can 'audible' if need be.

If NUK and Green flip 'X' and 'Y" because they spot a weakness, we add to the flexibility of the offence, which many have said is too set-piece.

The idea that they'd clear this modification prior to a play is virtually impossible, and one can be fairly certain that they've been doing 'switches' on the fly in practice.

So... other than your seeming need to bash KK at every turn, much ado about nothing.

In the immortal words of Coach Hank Stram, it's all about: "matriculate the ball down the field" - nothing more, nothing less.

But there's no need to do that. We just do like any other team does, we call the play and set the positions to take advantage of those match ups in advance. If the WR's think "I think I can own this DB from the X on 81 F burst Z stop" then when next on the sideline (or in the huddle at a push) the WR has that discussions with the coaches. That's how all other teams work.

There shouldn't be a situation in play on the field where any WR is thinking "I should be running the cross from the right, not the out from the left. Let's switch". If they are at that stage then the coaches already aren't doing their job. Seeing as it's the coaches job to put his WR's in the best positions to succeed in the first place.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Is this a joke? It's not my responsibility to decide if somebody is abdicating their responsibility?

Firstly, I suggest you get to grips with the concept of how internet forums work. You seem to be struggling with that part.

Second, I'm not deciding anything. It IS the responsibility of the OC to decide where his receivers are positioned and here's that guy saying "You guys can swap routes if you like, you don't even have to check with me". I don't have to decide if that is abdicating responsibility, that plainly is abdicating responsibility and it's a recipe for disaster.

One thing I know from 25 years of managing people is they always, ALWAYS work in their own self interest. Even when they think they or tell you they aren't. And if you give them wide latitude to make their own work related decisions they will inevitably make those decisions based on what's best for them and not what is best for the company. This is no different.

Call me a traditionalist but I like my OC's / Play calling HC's to make the decisions. I like them to move the WR's around based on what they see as best matchups because (call me crazy here) that's their freakin' job. And I want them to do that based on the looks they get from the D, the game plan they spent all week putting together and based on situational football.

Now Kliff doesn't do that anyway, which is bad enough, but now he's saying "You know what, if you guys like a route decide among yourselves who runs what". Well that's nuts.

I'd have no issue with it if a) Kliff was taking advantage of matchups and moving guys around and/or b) The WR's had to check in with Kliff and get his ok before making such a change. But neither of those things are happening.

Answer me this. In the whole history of football do you recall any OC/play calling HC saying that their WR's can just switch their routes whenever they want? I know some of you are shrugging this off because you're thinking "Well it makes sense to a degree with 2 experienced vets and if they see something they like they should take advantage of it" and you're right, and other wide receivers do the same thing but you bet your ass before they do it they run it past their OC and get permission.

This is just another example to Kliff's lax attitude to the responsibilities of his job.

I agree with all of this. And I’m not an old school leader. I believe in empowering my team and being a relatively hands off leader unless otherwise necessary. But coaching isn’t just leading. It’s strategic - from a macro and micro level. While players are honing their craft and preparing for specific parts of the game plan each week the coach is preparing the overall and each individual plan. Players have some limited insight into that - and can surely let the coach know on gameday what they are seeing/experiencing that they believe they can exploit, but they can’t possibly have the overall and aggregate perspective nor the in-game macro view of the chess game being played. It’s literally why you hire a coach.

 

[QuebecCard]

But there's no need to do that. We just do like any other team does, we call the play and set the positions to take advantage of those match ups in advance. If the WR's think "I think I can own this DB from the X on 81 F burst Z stop" then when next on the sideline (or in the huddle at a push) the WR has that discussions with the coaches. That's how all other teams work.

There shouldn't be a situation in play on the field where any WR is thinking "I should be running the cross from the right, not the out from the left. Let's switch". If they are at that stage then the coaches already aren't doing their job. Seeing as it's the coaches job to put his WR's in the best positions to succeed in the first place.

Are you actually going to tell us how "all other teams work" - seriously?

If you accept an "in the huddle" adjustment as a caveat then the bottom has just fallen out of your argument, and I'd venture that while coaches are attempting to ensure success it is hardly as rigid as you would have it and is subject to on-field adjustment particularly when the variation is coming from two All-Pro wideouts.

Inflexible flexibility is a contraction in terms.

 

[tnmike]

So you are saying that nobody should say anything until the season starts, got it. Ok, weird but ok I guess.

Didn't say that at all, you did. I'm shocked at some folks reading comprehension skills but I guess it's an indictment of the American educational system

 

[BritCard]

I agree with all of this. And I’m not an old school leader. I believe in empowering my team and being a relatively hands off leader unless otherwise necessary. But coaching isn’t just leading. It’s strategic - from a macro and micro level. While players are honing their craft and preparing for specific parts of the game plan each week the coach is preparing the overall and each individual plan. Players have some limited insight into that - and can surely let the coach know on gameday what they are seeing/experiencing that they believe they can exploit, but they can’t possibly have the overall and aggregate perspective nor the in-game macro view of the chess game being played. It’s literally why you hire a coach.

Thank you for succinctly summing up exactly what I'm trying to say.

 

[BritCard]

Are you actually going to tell us how "all other teams work" - seriously?

If you accept an "in the huddle" adjustment as a caveat then the bottom has just fallen out of your argument, and I'd venture that while coaches are attempting to ensure success it is hardly as rigid as you would have it and is subject to on-field adjustment particularly when the variation is coming from two All-Pro wideouts.

Inflexible flexibility is a contraction in terms.

Yeah I'm seriously going to tell you how all other teams work, because for damn sure no OC or play calling HC anywhere else is saying "I know this is my job, and my multi million dollar salary and potentially my career is on the line, but you know what boys, screw it, you guys decide which routes you want to run. You know best. No need to check with me".

I know this because it's dumb and dumb people don't generally get OC or HC positions.

 

[QuebecCard]

Yeah I'm seriously going to tell you how all other teams work, because for damn sure know no OC or play calling HC anywhere else is saying "I know this is my job, and my multi million dollar salary and potentially my career is on the line, but you know what boys, screw it, you guys decide which routes you want to run. You know best. No need to check with me".

I know this because it's dumb and dumb people don't generally get OC or HC positions.

Must say that you spinning words to the absurd is getting to be fun.

Fount of all knowledge - Do you also do mind melding and reading body language?

Walter is that you?

 

[QuebecCard]

I agree with all of this. And I’m not an old school leader. I believe in empowering my team and being a relatively hands off leader unless otherwise necessary. But coaching isn’t just leading. It’s strategic - from a macro and micro level. While players are honing their craft and preparing for specific parts of the game plan each week the coach is preparing the overall and each individual plan. Players have some limited insight into that - and can surely let the coach know on gameday what they are seeing/experiencing that they believe they can exploit, but they can’t possibly have the overall and aggregate perspective nor the in-game macro view of the chess game being played. It’s literally why you hire a coach.

And the Coach on the sidelines can't know in an instant the "micro" that cornerback "A", "B" or "C" is being set up by the wideout(s), sucking air, having trouble with his right, left or long - etc. and reacting now, on the next play, is the time to take advantage and not after a discussion on the sideline to get permission to fit a move into the grand design. (IMO)

 

[tnmike]

Yeah I'm seriously going to tell you how all other teams work, because for damn sure know no OC or play calling HC anywhere else is saying "I know this is my job, and my multi million dollar salary and potentially my career is on the line, but you know what boys, screw it, you guys decide which routes you want to run. You know best. No need to check with me".

I know this because it's dumb and dumb people don't generally get OC or HC positions.

Ken Whisenhunt did and look how good Kurt Warner made him look

 

[cardpa]

I think it's a recipe for disaster. Your QB is no longer in command of the huddle and if Murray decides to make a change at the line based on the defensive setup how does allowing the WRs to decide how they line up affect that? You practice with these guys lined up one way and now they switch in a game and their timing and route running are different and the timing goes to hell. I can see multiple interceptions because of this.

 

[Krangodnzr]

So how will they fit together? Hopkins will generally line up out wide on one side of Murray while Green will be wide on the other, a position that Gruden said fits Green perfectly because of his size, length and strength. One of the first things Green and Hopkins talked about after Green signed in March was their alignments. Hopkins told Green: "If you want a route and I'm on that side, we can switch."

And they don't have to run it by Cardinals coach Kliff Kingsbury, who calls the offense's plays.

"Whoever's running a route between A.J. Green and DeAndre Hopkins, I'm going to be happy with," Kingsbury said.

"This offense fits me to a T, because that's what I'm used to," Green said. "When I first came into the league with Jay Gruden, a lot of big posts, a lot of different outside routes. That was my bread and butter. In the last couple of years, that wasn't the case."

Already in practice, Jefferson has seen when the coverage has rolled toward Hopkins, Green has made plays deep and over the top.

"If they want to play one-on-one coverage on them," Jefferson said, "God bless them."

'Kyler Murray should have fun' with Cardinals receivers DeAndre Hopkins, A.J. Green

Neither Hopkins nor Green has played alongside a receiver like the other. If they can stay healthy, it could be a "big issue" for opposing defenses.

www.espn.com

All they are saying is that if they are on the same SIDE, they can switch who runs the route.

That's very different than what some of you are saying.

 

[TaylorSwift]

So how will they fit together? Hopkins will generally line up out wide on one side of Murray while Green will be wide on the other, a position that Gruden said fits Green perfectly because of his size, length and strength. One of the first things Green and Hopkins talked about after Green signed in March was their alignments. Hopkins told Green: "If you want a route and I'm on that side, we can switch."

And they don't have to run it by Cardinals coach Kliff Kingsbury, who calls the offense's plays.

"Whoever's running a route between A.J. Green and DeAndre Hopkins, I'm going to be happy with," Kingsbury said.

"This offense fits me to a T, because that's what I'm used to," Green said. "When I first came into the league with Jay Gruden, a lot of big posts, a lot of different outside routes. That was my bread and butter. In the last couple of years, that wasn't the case."

Already in practice, Jefferson has seen when the coverage has rolled toward Hopkins, Green has made plays deep and over the top.

"If they want to play one-on-one coverage on them," Jefferson said, "God bless them."

'Kyler Murray should have fun' with Cardinals receivers DeAndre Hopkins, A.J. Green

Neither Hopkins nor Green has played alongside a receiver like the other. If they can stay healthy, it could be a "big issue" for opposing defenses.

www.espn.com

Id much rather this, the players know far better tactics than Kliff.

 

[QuebecCard]

I think it's a recipe for disaster. Your QB is no longer in command of the huddle and if Murray decides to make a change at the line based on the defensive setup how does allowing the WRs to decide how they line up affect that? You practice with these guys lined up one way and now they switch in a game and their timing and route running are different and the timing goes to hell. I can see multiple interceptions because of this.

The fact that this is being discussed during training camp means that they are practicing these potential in-game adjustments.

It's a recipe for success!

 

[QuebecCard]

Id much rather this, the players know far better tactics than Kliff.

This is about KK, a former QB and long time creative OC, meshing with the brains and talent of KM, NUK and Green.

 

[QuebecCard]

All they are saying is that if they are on the same SIDE, they can switch who runs the route.

That's very different than what some of you are saying.

If I'm "X" and you're "Y" we are playing alongside each other in football parlance.

 

[Krangodnzr]

If I'm "X" and you're "Y" we are playing alongside each other in football parlance.

Yep.

So what they mean is if there was a formation where Hopkins and Green are lined up side by side, they could switch positions.

Lets say that Hopkins is outside running a go route and Green is standing next to him running a post, then they could switch positions. Nothing crazy about that.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Really grasping at straws to further push this anti-Kingsbury view.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

I know this because it's dumb and dumb people don't generally get OC or HC positions.

McCoy and Wilks

 

[BritCard]

Ken Whisenhunt did and look how good Kurt Warner made him look

Whisenhunt let his WRs choose routes? I think not.

Stop trying to use "Well QBs have latitude" because its not remotely the same.

 

[BritCard]

All they are saying is that if they are on the same SIDE, they can switch who runs the route.

That's very different than what some of you are saying.

No he isn't.

He's saying if you want to run a route that I'm supposed to be running we can swap.

 

[Zeem_Freeze]

No he isn't.

He's saying if you want to run a route that I'm supposed to be running we can swap.

its not something they are deciding at the line of scrimmage. this would be decided in practice, based off who feels they run the better route given the formation.

this isnt a haphazard process.

 

[Garthshort]

This whole thread is becoming unreadable and very boring. Any news about the KC game?

 

[Krangodnzr]

No he isn't.

He's saying if you want to run a route that I'm supposed to be running we can swap.

Same side is the key phrase.

You're seeing what you want to see here.