2023 Phoenix Suns Offseason

[Covert Rain]

This is what some don't take into consideration. There was so much room to improve the core without making the Durant trade.

Lots of talent would have been available this summer. Also, the Suns could have improved their roster last season without a major trade.

Now the Suns are like a poker player with only a few chips.

At the same time some don’t take into consideration that tweaks to this roster may have never been enough. I still believe anything short of a similar move wasn’t going to be enough and there was no guarantee someone of that caliber would be available or would even come here. It doesn’t matter how many chips you have if you are unable to use them to get over the hump. It’s possible but it’s also possible nothing ever emerges and we never get over the hump. Plus I genuinely believe Booker’s patience has limits.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Apparently I am the only person on the board who changes their mind. I was for the trade 100% and that view hasn't held up in light of the results, at least to me.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I will also reserve the right to evolve my opinion further based on next year. I shade towards the opinion that the multiple picks was too much.

 

[Phrazbit]

At the same time some don’t take into consideration that tweaks to this roster may have never been enough. I still believe anything short of a similar move wasn’t going to be enough and there was no guarantee someone of that caliber would be available or would even come here. It doesn’t matter how many chips you have if you are unable to use them to get over the hump. It’s possible but it’s also possible nothing ever emerges and we never get over the hump. Plus I genuinely believe Booker’s patience has limits.

Booker just signed a new extension. And that extension being a supermax makes it almost impossible that he could be sent to a contender, even more so under the new CBA.

I don't think Booker's patience entered into their thinking whatsoever.

Ishbia's impatience seems to have been the driving force.

 

[Covert Rain]

Apparently I am the only person on the board who changes their mind. I was for the trade 100% and that view hasn't held up in light of the results, at least to me.

I am for the team taking swings. This trade is a title or bust move. It may very well not pan out. I think the window is this season which I have said from day one. After this season for me it’s highly unlikely anything will come of it.

 

[AzStevenCal]

At the same time some don’t take into consideration that tweaks to this roster may have never been enough. I still believe anything short of a similar move wasn’t going to be enough and there was no guarantee someone of that caliber would be available or would even come here. It doesn’t matter how many chips you have if you are unable to use them to get over the hump. It’s possible but it’s also possible nothing ever emerges and we never get over the hump. Plus I genuinely believe Booker’s patience has limits.

I suspect you're right,we probably did need another impact player even if we kept Bridges and CamJ. But I think a top 40 player (roughly) along with some minor upgrades at our bench spots would have put us right there. Especially if we upgraded the coaching.

 

[Covert Rain]

Booker just signed a new extension. And that extension being a supermax makes it almost impossible that he could be sent to a contender, even more so under the new CBA.

I don't think Booker's patience entered into their thinking whatsoever.

Ishbia's impatience seems to have been the driving force.

I think it did. Yes it would be really hard but who knows. I have seen teams move mountains to shed salary to move on other players before.

 

[Phrazbit]

I will also reserve the right to evolve my opinion further based on next year. I shade towards the opinion that the multiple picks was too much.

If you're giving away that much then you need to be creating a bona fide contender, a title favorite. We're well short of that.

I think it did. Yes it would be really hard but who knows. I have seen teams move mountains to shed salary to move on other players before.

I don't think it could have... but even if it did, it is another major failing of the trade. I would say the odds of Booker wanting to get out of here in the next few years are exponentially higher given how hard its going to be to build a team going forward.

 

[Covert Rain]

If you're giving away that much then you need to be creating a bona fide contender, a title favorite. We're well short of that.



I don't think it could have... but even if it did, it is another major failing of the trade. I would say the odds of Booker wanting to get out of here in the next few years are exponentially higher given how hard its going to be to build a team going forward.

Considering it was something he allegedly brought up about his extension, I don’t see how it couldn’t. Plus, you don’t make a trade that big without talking to Booker. They talked to Booker about hiring Vogel. I don’t see how you wouldn’t talk to your stars. I think that is pretty common.

 

[Phrazbit]

Considering it was something he allegedly brought up about his extension, I don’t see how it couldn’t. Plus, you don’t make a trade that big without talking to Booker. They talked to Booker about hiring Vogel. I don’t see how you wouldn’t talk to your stars. I think that is pretty common.

I agree you talk to your stars, but that is totally different than them being worried he'd demand out.

If you are trying to get a running mate for your stud in his prime you don't trade for a balding 35 year old with injury problems.

 

[Covert Rain]

I agree you talk to your stars, but that is totally different than them being worried he'd demand out.

If you are trying to get a running mate for your stud in his prime you don't trade for a balding 35 year old with injury problems.

The reason you talk to your stars is so they don’t become disgruntled and want out. Booker didn’t seem to object to the trade either mistake or not. I seriously doubt this trade is made if Booker adamantly objects.

 

[Phrazbit]

The reason you talk to your stars is so they don’t become disgruntled and want out.

Fine, but we would talk to him no matter what, that has no bearing on the Durant trade.

Booker has continuously said he wants to be here, has no thought of leaving, he has extended his contract at the earliest possible time each time it has come up and he had JUST extended it. He stayed when we sucked and never made a peep about wanting out, I don't see any chance he bails on a perpetual playoff team.

And again, ironically, if Booker ever does demand out, the fall out from this trade will likely be the reason why.

 

[Covert Rain]

Fine, but we would talk to him no matter what, that has no bearing on the Durant trade.

Booker has continuously said he wants to be here, has no thought of leaving, he has extended his contract at the earliest possible time each time it has come up and he had JUST extended it. He stayed when we sucked and never made a peep about wanting out, I don't see any chance he bails on a perpetual playoff team.

And again, ironically, if Booker ever does demand out, the fall out from this trade will likely be the reason why.

We will have to disagree because if Booker was against this I don’t think it happens. Plus, if we continued to regress in the playoffs and get bounced early that would also be a reason why trade or no trade.

 

[Phrazbit]

We will have to disagree because if Booker was against this I don’t think it happens. Plus, if we continued to regress in the playoffs and get bounced early that would also be a reason why trade or no trade.

I never said he was against it.

When I say that the "fall out from the trade" has dramatically increased the odds of him demanding out, I mean that 2 years from now it's going to be reeeeally hard to put a good team around him because of this trade.

 

[Covert Rain]

I never said he was against it.

When I say that the "fall out from the trade" has dramatically increased the odds of him demanding out, I mean that 2 years from now it's going to be reeeeally hard to put a good team around him because of this trade.

I am not saying you did say that. I am saying that he was consulted and IF he didn’t want the trade to happen I doubt it does. You could also be 100% correct that a couple years from now things are a mess. All I am saying is trade or no trade Booker isn’t going to have infinite patience. Booker is too competitive for that IMO.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I am for the team taking swings. This trade is a title or bust move. It may very well not pan out. I think the window is this season which I have said from day one. After this season for me it’s highly unlikely anything will come of it.

Yep that is where I was and I still may land there depending on next year.

 

[Raindog]

There's many moves that could have been made and the Suns seemed locked on Durant when Durant has never won a title outside of Golden State and they've won with and without him. He's not the difference maker some sell him as. He was great but our window is slamming shut fast due to his age and injury history. Then what? Booker wants out? I'm not going to pretend I know but after seeing Paul fall off a cliff, the last thing this team should have done is traded for another player with maybe 2 years left at high level. We saw that story already with Paul.

I'm not saying that Durant was absolutely the star guy they had to get, nor that they made a perfect trade to get him. What I am saying is A) I get why they did it, B) they absolutely needed to do something of a similar impact at some point if they wanted to really try and win it all, and C) the only way they were going to be able to make a move like that any time soon was by trading Bridges/Johnson.

As for whether they could win with a team built around Booker/Bridges/Johnson, well I guess we will just have to eternally agree to disagree about that. In my humble opinion, Booker is borderline on the level of a championship difference maker. But I don't see either Bridges or Cam J. as being anything close to the kind of players who push you over the line, nor do I imagine they will ever be. They are both nice complementary pieces on a good team and that's about it.

In fact, I would just about 100% guarantee that even if the Durant deal hadn't been made, the season would have ended for the Suns more or less the exact way it did. And furthermore, I would also just about 100% guarantee that at this very moment they would be looking to trade Bridges, Cam, and some assortment of other assets for Durant or someone like him, and that's most likely what would have happened this off-season.

 

[clyde2tw]

Let bygones be... Forget Mikal and CamJ. Let's focus on building a team around Book/KD. The future is bright as is.

 

[taz02]

Having KD and losing the twins isn't the problem.

The last 3 historic playoff exits point to larger problems.

1. Coaching, hopefully fixed
2. CP3, we are not winning with CP as our starting PG
3. Ayton, as long as our starting center is a fumbling, inconsistent bonehead making 30m we are stuck.

The KD trade isn't the problem, if Ayton and CP performed to their contracts or even close, we'd be fine and IMO we'd be better off with KD instead of the twins.

The suns are in a really tough spot right now, but deep pockets stuffed with a billion or so bucks can fix a lot of problems.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Having KD and losing the twins isn't the problem.

The last 3 historic playoff exits point to larger problems.

1. Coaching, hopefully fixed
2. CP3, we are not winning with CP as our starting PG
3. Ayton, as long as our starting center is a fumbling, inconsistent bonehead making 30m we are stuck.

The KD trade isn't the problem, if Ayton and CP performed to their contracts or even close, we'd be fine and IMO we'd be better off with KD instead of the twins.

The suns are in a really tough spot right now, but deep pockets stuffed with a billion or so bucks can fix a lot of problems.

I sort of agree with most of this but it ignores the central point for why some of us were so against the trade beyond the fact we believe we grossly overpaid. We simply weren't ready for it. Our greatest weaknesses at the time of the trade were the decline of CP3, the inconsistency of Ayton and a lack of quality depth. With this trade, we kept our two biggest weaknesses while greatly increasing our depth problem. Digging a hole deeper to try and get out of it never works.

The parameters of the new CBA took our weak situation and made it far worse. You can excuse the fans for their excitement over the trade for a player such as KD as they had no idea this CBA was coming. But given that the owner and front office surely knew the parameters, it makes this decision one of the worst any franchise has ever made (IMO).

 

[Proximo]

I need you to show me that. I never read that anywhere.

IMO, it was an absolute lock that if we didn't trade Cam we were extending him.

Absolutely. At the time of the trade it would be idiocy not to extend him. He would be an asset to trade if nothing else.

But the new CBA might have changed things, well that and how well we did in the playoffs.

 

[Proximo]

IDK, Like @Raindog said: "Whether that was due to Paul hitting the wall, Monty's post season incompetence, Ayton's disappearing act, or some combination of all three (most likely), continuing with the same roster was a failing proposition."

I think it was all three. We keep doing the same thing expecting different results is not logical.

We are changing the lineup, changing coaches. We'll see about Ayton.

This completely does not take into account Mikal and Cam's improvement, and having the use of our draft picks.

Coaching change would have still happened as well.

 

[Proximo]

Apparently I am the only person on the board who changes their mind. I was for the trade 100% and that view hasn't held up in light of the results, at least to me.

No you aren't. I was slightly opposed to it. Now I think it was a near disaster.

We aren't the only ones whose opinions have shifted whether others will admit to it or not.

 

[AzStevenCal]

No you aren't. I was slightly opposed to it. Now I think it was a near disaster.

We aren't the only ones whose opinions have shifted whether others will admit to it or not.

I think it's more a case of clinging to possibilities rather than being unwilling to admit it. Right now, slim though it is, we still have an outside chance to win it all this next year and maybe the following. For many, winning the championship will more than make up for the bad years that are likely to follow.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

... there is no logic behind that theory.

IF we had not traded him there is zero reason to believe Ishbia would have not resigned him. Every indication is that Ishbia is willing to spend.

Actually there are only two facts that we absolutely know that can be considered in regards to this debate:

1. Ishbia is willing to spend big. So the dollars may not have been a deterrent to resigning cam. But that doesn’t take into account whether ishbia would’ve valued cam enough to eat up that amount of cap space.

2. Ishbia included cam in a trade. This indicates that ishbia did not see cam as a crucial piece in the pursuit of championship when a trade for a star presented itself.