4th and 4!

[WisconsinCard]

Come on, WC. I normally really appreciate your posts, but this is just silly. The Cards had it on the 50, and you are saying it is OK to get the ball 20 yards further back with less time and fewer timeouts?

I really like coach Whiz, but he botched this one today. The way I see it in that situation you have two options.

1) Go for it, and probably about a 50-50 chance of making it and continuing the drive, and even if they failed, they still have a chance of getting the ball back with some clock and timeouts.

2) Punt it away. Coach Whiz said his hope was to "pin them back". Well that's fine if there are 4-5 minutes left. With 2:38, even if you force a 3 and out you would most likely have the same field position only with less time on the clock and a few burned timeouts.

Wrong call. Especially on the road.

And what is wrong with the delay-of-game penalties and so many plays being snapped at the one-second mark of the play clock? Something is wrong with the offensive planning/execution.

I don't disagree with you at all, especially because it didn't work. I said in another thread, That I don't think there was a wrong desision to be made. Either decisison had its upside and downside. I think Whis was playing field position, you have to trust that your defense gets on the field and does their job.

 

[WisconsinCard]

Well, that is the reason right there why most people are angry about it in the first place. Because you had to know with the way they were abusing our defense all day, that it just wasnt going to be worth it by punting and just knew it wasn't going to pay off. Now, if our defense is dominating all day and showing signs that they could come up with a stop, then most people on here would probably agree that deciding to punt was the smart decision. But, based on this performance by the defense you would rather gamble with the chances of getting four yards with Kurt and our offense, rather than leaving it up to the D when all the skins had to essentially do was get 1 first down. But like another poster said earlier.. You do yourself basically no harm by going for it because even if you dont get it, you still leave the skins about 25-30 yards to even get into field goal position and they still have to get their 2-3 first downs..Whatever, game is over, but I honestly think Whiz is kicking himself for that one...

These two statement contridict each other. You can't say well he should have known that our defense couldn't hold them and then say if he went for it we would have been in the same situation, because we wouldn't have.

If we go on fourth and don't make it you give up field position and as you said we couldn't stop them anyway. So playing the "if" game doesn't amount to a hill of beans. I thought Whis would go for it, because he has so many times in the past. I was telling my wife I would go for it. But I still think the only reason it was the wrong decision is because it didn't pay off. MHO there was no wrong decision to be made. It could be good or bad either way.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Another misnomer being tossed around this thread is that our defense played bad all day. The Skins took their opening drive of both halves and scored.Their other points were on short fields because of turnovers. They didn't have a 1st down in the 2nd quarter. Portis only had 68 yards on 21 carries. I'm not saying the defense played well but it's not out of the question to think they would hold them in that sitaution. Most of the Skins yards and sustained drives were the result of mis-direction plays and the inability to get Campbell on the ground. In the end of game situation the Skins were just going to line up and run the ball. THey did their job and the Cards defense didn't. Also, it seems like everyone thinks it was 50/50 shot at making 4th and 4. That's not an easy make. I'd bet the % was about 25%,or less, that it gets converted.

 

[JC_AZ]

Cards conceded defeat with 2:38 left in the game

That is when I decided to GIVE UP TOO... that was completely boneheaded and "same ole"... our D could not not stop them all day from getting first downs at critical times... WHY IN THE HELL was this SUPPOSED to turn out DIFFERENT?

 

[WisconsinCard]

That is when I decided to GIVE UP TOO... that was completely boneheaded and "same ole"... our D could not not stop them all day from getting first downs at critical times... WHY IN THE HELL was this SUPPOSED to turn out DIFFERENT?

If our coach, at any point, stops believing our defense can't make a stop at the end of the game, well then its time to start gutting that defense. As a coach I think you have to believe in your players.

 

[Cheesebeef]

everyone seems to think we were kind of a shoe-in to get that first down but I've got to ask why? Warner (who had played a solid game till that point) really didn't look good the entire fourth quarter, missing short, long, holding the ball too long, tipped balls, etc, etc and he looked bad on that series. I'm thinking Wiz saw an offense that was knocked out of rythym and decided that with 3 timeouts (two plus the 2 minute warning), it was better to try and play field position and get the ball back at the same spot rather than risk the offense continuing to stink, hope for a 3 and out using our TOs and giving that ineffective offense the ball back within our own 20 inside of two minutes.

 

[Russ Smith]

everyone seems to think we were kind of a shoe-in to get that first down but I've got to ask why? Warner (who had played a solid game till that point) really didn't look good the entire fourth quarter, missing short, long, holding the ball too long, tipped balls, etc, etc and he looked bad on that series. I'm thinking Wiz saw an offense that was knocked out of rythym and decided that with 3 timeouts (two plus the 2 minute warning), it was better to try and play field position and get the ball back at the same spot rather than risk the offense continuing to stink, hope for a 3 and out using our TOs and giving that ineffective offense the ball back within our own 20 inside of two minutes.

I don't think people thought it was a lock we'd get the first down as much as they thought it was a lock if we punted we wouldn't get the ball back because the defense was struggling at that point to stop them.

As Abomb said it's a matter of a coach wanting to keep the score closer in a loss rather than take the risk to tie it up. Losing by 7 looks a lot better than losing by 14 so you punt there but it was the last chance we had to tie the game up.

 

[Renz]

If our coach, at any point, stops believing our defense can't make a stop at the end of the game, well then its time to start gutting that defense. As a coach I think you have to believe in your players.

You could say the same thing about the offense. Like others have already said, I trust Kurt & Co. to get four yards much more than I trust our defense to get a three-and-out.

 

[AZ Native]

If our coach, at any point, stops believing our defense can't make a stop at the end of the game, well then its time to start gutting that defense. As a coach I think you have to believe in your players.

Here is the quote from Kent Sommers' article in today's AZ Republic:

Whisenhunt figured that with two timeouts left and the two-minute warning "we could stop them and we could have the ball with right at two minutes with still a chance to go downfield. So I really didn't consider it (going for the first down) at that point."

 

[Gambit]

I didn't get it either. Hope the team bounces back next week.

I thought they looked decent for a tough road game. Nothing to panic about.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Here is the quote from Kent Sommers' article in today's AZ Republic:

Whisenhunt figured that with two timeouts left and the two-minute warning "we could stop them and we could have the ball with right at two minutes with still a chance to go downfield. So I really didn't consider it (going for the first down) at that point."

He didn't even consider it? This statement also tells me a lot about Kenny Whiz that I didn't know.

 

[black]

I didn't get it either. Hope the team bounces back next week.

I thought they looked decent for a tough road game. Nothing to panic about.

Thank you.

 

[cgolden]

They should have went for it. The defense wasn't exactly lights out in the second half and he should have played to his strengths. With the game on the line, who would rather put your faith in: The defense to go three and out, or Kurt Warner and the passing game?

It's that simple to me, if they want to play conservative and play "not to lose," then let Matt Leinart take over and he can throw the ball 20 times a game and we'll rely on the defense and running game to win games (gulp). But if Warner is the QB, put the ball in his hands and let him win the game.

 

[Rivercard]

He didn't even consider it? This statement also tells me a lot about Kenny Whiz that I didn't know.

Yeah Whis obviously wasn't weighing all the options. WTH? Was he watching the defense out there all afternoon? That's a pretty big risk over some field position. Whether we punt or miss the 4th down conversion, either way we would have to get a 3 & out while using all the timeouts. So Whis gives Washington the opportunity to win the game by getting 1 first down in exchange for a best case scenario of better field postion. Dumb decision.

 

[gusmahler]

everyone seems to think we were kind of a shoe-in to get that first down but I've got to ask why?

No one here is saying we were a lock to get the first. What you have to do is think of the possibilities.

If we failed to convert 4th and 4, the game is over. Even if we stop them, we'd get the ball back at the 20 (or worse).

But if we punt, we HAVE to prevent a first down. Even a single WAS first down basically ends the game. So, as the other poster said, do we have a better chance of getting 4 yards in one play or stopping WAS from getting 10 yards in 3 plays.

Another interesting call is WAS going for the 52 yard FG. Obviously, the positive is that making it ends the game. But punting and pinning ARI in the 10 might have been a better choice.

 

[ajcardfan]

Another interesting call is WAS going for the 52 yard FG. Obviously, the positive is that making it ends the game. But punting and pinning ARI in the 10 might have been a better choice.

No doubt about it, Zorn's decision to kick a FG was also a bad one. That was just too low of a percentage kick and the guy had already missed a few this year. Had we driven down and scored to tie the game, he would be flogged by the media for trying that kick. I know I was HOPING they would try a FG, but was expecting a pooch kick.

 

[Mulli]

Did they really throw to Hightower on both 2and4 and 3and4? Ugh.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Did they really throw to Hightower on both 2and4 and 3and4? Ugh.

Yes. This was after they had a big hole to run through on 1st down.

 

[Mulli]

Yes. This was after they had a big hole to run through on 1st down.

I hope it was just a dump off and not the first option or whatever.

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[dreamcastrocks]

I hope it was just a dump off and not the first option or whatever.

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Warner only tried to throw down the field 2 times all game long. One time Fitz beat his man for an easy touchdown. The second time was the one he threw to Breaston that was intercepted.

He really didn't challenge the secondary.

 

[Rivercard]

If we failed to convert 4th and 4, the game is over. Even if we stop them, we'd get the ball back at the 20 (or worse).

Not really. We would have had just under 2:00 left in we indeed stopped them. That's why it was such a bad decision. Even if we miss the 4th down conversion we're not in that worse shape if indeed we got the ball back at the 20 yard line. Either way a Wash 1st down was gonna end of the ballgame, so you gotta take your chances with your offense on the field.

 

[Mulli]

Warner only tried to throw down the field 2 times all game long. One time Fitz beat his man for an easy touchdown. The second time was the one he threw to Breaston that was intercepted.

He really didn't challenge the secondary.

My dad said "they should replace Warner starting tomorrow!" He is crazy, but I love him.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

My dad said "they should replace Warner starting tomorrow!" He is crazy, but I love him.

Well, if Leinart was on a short leash, I don't see why KW shouldn't be. If he has another subpar game against the Jets, I'll call for Leinart to start to. (Yes, 2 weeks after his perfect game)

 

[nashman]

DCR I am not so sure its just Warner, the playcalling yesterday was strange all day long. I mean why are we not throwing the ball and trying to get up early like we did last week? Then after you get a lead start running the ball not the other way around. The decision not to go for it was so wrong I couldn't believe the punt team was coming out then I was thinking fake punt....nope just giving the game away without trying made me sick. Maybe the single worst decision I have seen from Whiz since he has been here. If we score the momentum would have been in our favor, we have to give ourselves a chance to win not just kick it away with 2:40 or whatever on the clock.

 

[Longcolts]

DCR I am not so sure its just Warner, the playcalling yesterday was strange all day long. I mean why are we not throwing the ball and trying to get up early like we did last week? Then after you get a lead start running the ball not the other way around. The decision not to go for it was so wrong I couldn't believe the punt team was coming out then I was thinking fake punt....nope just giving the game away without trying made me sick. Maybe the single worst decision I have seen from Whiz since he has been here. If we score the momentum would have been in our favor, we have to give ourselves a chance to win not just kick it away with 2:40 or whatever on the clock.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/21/AR2008092101815_pf.html

This may help explain alot about our passing game against Washingtion.