Amare haters...

[Chaplin]

If Amare was THE GUY on a team, Black Jesus could be right, Amare could average about 28 29 a game, but unfortunately that team would spend all their money on Amare and would have no defense and would not win too many games. I'd rather that not be the suns.

and chaplin, he means when rebounds are needed like actual contested rebounds, not rebounds off missed free throws and other garbage rebounds, AND late game offensive and defensive rebounds. I don't agree with him, I don't think amare gets those, but thats what he means.

That makes some sense, but I think that "a needed rebound" is still a bunch of crap. I don't care when it is, a rebound is a rebound, whether it's gaining a possession or extending a possession.

 

[Covert Rain]

That makes some sense, but I think that "a needed rebound" is still a bunch of crap. I don't care when it is, a rebound is a rebound, whether it's gaining a possession or extending a possession.

Exactly. I mean I have seen so many games where the Suns were getting their butts handed to them because the other team was getting too many offensive rebounds. Amare in a few games I remember finished with 5 or 6 rebounds. You trying to say we could not have used rebounding from him in those games??? You need to get rebounds when the other team is getting too many second shots. How many times have we seen that this season??

On top of that, it still does not address his inconsistency or his lack of defense at times. I think we have acknowledged that Amare can play some offense. He is just not the MJ of PF's by any stretch and his offense is not why people have been "hating" on Amare anyway.

 

[cobbler]

And Amare is a top 5 scorer in the NBA and top 8 talent

I have to ask.... you meant top 8 talent in the PF position right? You really didn't mean overall did you? Cause it could easily be argued that he's not even top 20 due to his defensive liabilities.

 

[Black Jesus]

Really? There are many scoring PF in this league on par or close to Amare's scoring.

Amare - 21.4

Dirk Nowitzki - Better (25.9)
David West - 19.8
Al Jefferson - Better (23.1)
Chris Bosh - Better (22.8)
Zac Randolph - Same (21.4)
Tim Duncan - 21.9 (I will get back to this in a minute)
Carlos Boozer - (20.5)
Al Harrington - (20.5)
Gasol, Okur and Alridge at about 18 PPG.
This doesn't even include KG at 16.4 which isn't 21.4 but is a better player.

It's not like Amare is head and shoulders above all PF in the NBA as you can see in scoring. In fact, 4 of those guys are better. Your acting like Amare is the MJ of Power Forwards. As you can see that's far from the truth. Amare is a very good scoring PF but he is not alone.

Not saying MJ of his position by any means. Just that he is the best we have available. You guys are acting like he is a Tim Thomas.

FG attempts per game
Dirk 20
West 16
Jefferson 20
Bosh 16
Randolph 18
Duncan 16
Boozer 15

Stoudemire- 14

Great these guys average a pt or two or less on more shots a game. Give Amare 6 more shots a game and he is averaging close to 30.

I agree with this.

Technically... If Stoudemire and Al Jefferson was on the market.. and you have 100 Million dollars to sign either one.

Who WOULD YOU PICK?

Stoudemire: 25~27 PPG, 8~9 RPG, 1-1.5 BPG, (Weak defender, relies on quickness, had knee problems)


Jefferson: 22~24 PPG, 10~12 RPG, 1-1.5 BPG, (Solid defender, relies on fundamental post moves)

I would take the obvious one.





The ONLY way Stoudemire can get away as being a mediocre rebounder... is if he contributes in facilitating.

If Stoudemire can somehow be LeBron James's Interior equivalent... then it would be okay to throw that much money on him.

But.. Stoudemire cannot create for his team mates, tends to turn it over more so than create a pass/assists.

Stoudemire can give 5+ assists a game along with his 8-9 rebounds, obviously 25+ ppg.... THEN... it would be justifiable... since that would mean he is a more versatile and complete OFFENSIVE player.

right now he doesnt grab too many boards, doesnt play tough defense, and relies heavily on running and poor defenders for him to score... not to mention he doesnt set up his team mates....and he pouts/gives up too, when he isnt effective offensively.... COME ON now... you want 23 Million dollars a year stuck on a player like that????


Zach Randolph atleast grabs 10+ rebounds.... Boozer too...

Just judging by stats and impact... is Stoudemire even that much better than West?

Zach Randolph blows. Lets get that clear.
Al Jefferson has never been on a winning team, why would I want him over Amare who has never been on a losing team?

Are you serious? Nowitzki 25.8, Bosh 22.7, Jamison 21.5, Stoudemire 21.4, Duncan 20.9.



Nope.

Jameson 17.5 fga/g
Amare 14.1 FGA/g

Side note... Were you the one spreading those BS "Amare to Chicago is a done deal" rumors over at Real GM? Same username.

No that's not me. I'm a Suns fan never been to real gm, don't claim to have any undisclosed knowledge.


Don't mean to sound like an Amare lover. I just think he has become PHX's new unwarranted whipping boy. We aren't appreciating that we have one of the best players in the league.

 

[Covert Rain]

We aren't appreciating that we have one of the best players in the league.

Correction....one of the best offensive PF's in the league and I think your missing the pages pages of people who have already said that. I love Amare as an offensive player.

Amare is not one of the best rebounders or defensive players in this league. That's what people are saying.

 

[PoolBoy]

and whoever said that dirk and bosh are better than amare IS hatin.

 

[Wonder]

Amare hasn't been playing like he's a top 10 player for awhile but I think that's about to turn around.

you could argue that he's been a top 10 player since his 05 season, throughout most of it at least.

some people saying that he's reached his full potential need to kick themselves.

 

[jandaman]

Al Jefferson has not been on a winning team because of obvious reasons, he was on a rebuilding Celtics team then traded to a rebuilding Wolves team.

He is still one of the top up and coming big man in the league.. Up and coming and he is already a 22/11/2 guy.

Stoudemire is the less finesse version of Aldridge....more athletic and stronger..

 

[Black Jesus]

Al Jefferson has not been on a winning team because of obvious reasons, he was on a rebuilding Celtics team then traded to a rebuilding Wolves team.

He is still one of the top up and coming big man in the league.. Up and coming and he is already a 22/11/2 guy.

Stoudemire is the less finesse version of Aldridge....more athletic and stronger..

Haha, Amare balls Aldridge up. You are blind. Al Jefferson won't do **** in the league. He is awkward and slow. Just big, you can't just be big and be successful.I don't want to hear about Jefferson because he has been the go to guy on all his teams because all his teams suck. There is a reason Amare has been to 4 Allstar and Jefferson 0. There is a reason Amare was invited to Olympics and Jefferson wasn't.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Dude, you know it's possible to like Amare and NOT sound like an ass by dissing Jefferson. That guy can flat out play.

You continue to entrench yourself in your position, effectively making yourself sound dumber and dumber.

Jefferson is 23 and putting up better stats than Amare EVER has. His team is so bad that opponents ignore the rest of his squad and focus only on shutting him down, and he STILL gets it done. He isn't an allstar because his team is craptastic. His PER well surpasses Amare's.

Just wave the white flag and move on.

 

[Sovereignz]

Did someone really say Al Jefferson was a solid defender in this thread?

Calling Antawn Jamison as good a scorer as Amare is just ********. Situations mean everything in this league. Didn't Jamison play on a moderately offensively talented Dallas team and average about 13 points a game or something? If Amare and Antawn switched places, Jamison might be averaging 15 a game and Amare would be averaging 30.

There's more to basketball than just a box score/numbers.. There's maybe 1 or 2 guys in the league who would perform better than Amare offensively for this team at that position, and that's it. Period.

 

[pokerface]

I still want to know who the "Amare haters" are and how one is qualified as such.

 

[Ronin]

Zach Randolph blows. Lets get that clear.
Al Jefferson has never been on a winning team, why would I want him over Amare who has never been on a losing team?

huh? Amare has definitly been on a losing team.....it was the year he missed games with injuries to his ankle and Marbury was shipped to New York.

 

[nowagimp]

Al Jefferson has not been on a winning team because of obvious reasons, he was on a rebuilding Celtics team then traded to a rebuilding Wolves team.

He is still one of the top up and coming big man in the league.. Up and coming and he is already a 22/11/2 guy.

Stoudemire is the less finesse version of Aldridge....more athletic and stronger..

Al Jefferson is a poor defender, as bad or worse than amare. And hes on a team that has no other good rebounders. Being on a winning team does matter as it tends to separate the stat pilers from the effective players. Nobody cares how much you score when you regularly get blown out. When you are scoiring and beating people they try extra hard to stop you. Alot of teams have beaten the twolves easily without doubling big al, big difference. Who knows what he will do on a contender, perhaps we shall see.

 

[Goran Stoudemire]

People might not be hating but there is a lot of lies getting told in this thread to try and back up there opinions.

Jefferson is not a solid defender. He is worse than Amare. Just like Jamison,Boozer,West,Aldridge and many other power forwards that people want to overrate because the grass is always greener on the other side.

Jefferson is putting up these stats because he plays on a bad team where he gets the ball whenever he wants. The whole team is based around him getting his. You put Amare in that situation and Minny is a better team right now and Amare is putting up sick stats. Just look at what he did on a team like Minnys in the 2nd half of his 2nd season when he wasnt anywhere near the player he is now.

The only big man scorer that compares to Amare is Dirk. You can post ppg all you want but those guys are not as efficient and Amare was utilized as a role player while putting up 21 ppg earlier this season. Just watch what he does in the 2nd half and then compare those guys ppg wise and % wise.

Black Jesus said Amare was a top 8 talent and thats arguable. He said he was more talented than Dirk and Bosh and I would tend to agree.

Jefferson: 22~24 PPG, 10~12 RPG, 1-1.5 BPG, (Solid defender, relies on fundamental post moves)

Jefferson on a good team is a 20-22 PPG, 9-10 RPG guy while being a bad defender and a black hole with no passing skills.

Amare on that same type of team would be a 23-27 PPG 8-10 RPG guy while being a better defender with better passing skills.

Amare also has proven he can step up in the playoffs. Not to many players can claim that.

 

[Goran Stoudemire]

I still want to know who the "Amare haters" are and how one is qualified as such.

Look around this thread. Its the people that are claiming Jefferson is a solid defender, Amare as no passing skills and making up other lies to back up there opinions. It's people that sit in here with nothing to say other than what is a "Amare hater".

 

[Goran Stoudemire]

Dude, you know it's possible to like Amare and NOT sound like an ass by dissing Jefferson. That guy can flat out play.

You continue to entrench yourself in your position, effectively making yourself sound dumber and dumber.

Jefferson is 23 and putting up better stats than Amare EVER has. His team is so bad that opponents ignore the rest of his squad and focus only on shutting him down, and he STILL gets it done. He isn't an allstar because his team is craptastic. His PER well surpasses Amare's.

Just wave the white flag and move on.

Getting his by shooting 49.7% from the field while having "god like" post moves. Face it. Jefferson is overrated by some and does not compare to Amare right now. Plenty of players do this stuff on a bad team while being "focused" on. Lets not act like Jefferson is constantly doubled team either. Teams focus in on him just as much as teams focus in on guys like Amare/Dirk/Bosh/West and others in winning teams.

 

[nowagimp]

People might not be hating but there is a lot of lies getting told in this thread to try and back up there opinions.

Jefferson is not a solid defender, despite his physical advantages. He is worse than Amare. Just like Jamison(too weak), Boozer(too short and slow),West(undersized), Aldridge(needs more strength and smarts to guard down low) and many other power forwards that people want to overrate because the grass is always greener on the other side.

Yep exactly, if you dont like amares defense, jefferson, boozer, jamison, aldridge, and west will be worse. And yes, amares offensive efficiency is better than bosh's when they play in the same offense(running game). Yeah the grass is apparently greener and possibly being smoked a bit here. If you consider all those mentioned and admit TD is not a PF(he mostly does not defend the '4'), then Dirk is the only one that might be a better player.

 

[nowagimp]

Jefferson is 23 and putting up better stats than Amare EVER has. His team is so bad that opponents ignore the rest of his squad and focus only on shutting him down, and he STILL gets it done.

Yeah he gets everything done except the W's, LOL! Sometimes I think people just get wedded to faulty stats interpretation. The spurs used to force amare to beat them by using single coverage and daring him, and he created great stats, including a record 37ppg in the playoff series against them. And yet the suns lost. Jefferson is doubled late by most teams, he often shoots before the double arrives. Jefferson shoots less FT's in spite of being the first and second option on hjis team(5 vs 7-9 for amare). Who would you rather put at the FT line? SO who do you think is being defended more aggressively? NO team cares how much al jeff scores at garbage time. Amare used to see that kind of defense, but he is doubled alot earlier than Jeff, as everyone outside phoenix in the NBA knows, amare shoots 58% for his career and is much more efficient than Jeff(his FG% has dropped from 52 to 49% as his scoring went up). Someday we will see the real Jeff, when teams actually have to defend him to win games.

 

[Diamondback Jay]

Since when is a rebound "not needed"?

Maybe I'm just stupid, but I would think a rebound would be something we'd ALWAYS want.

One would assume.

Then again, there's so many on here who are too wrapped up in what some of these players DON'T have that they fail to recognize and respect what they DO and how the strengths of said player helps the team.

Here's what Amare is.. A strong rebounder, a physically imposing scorer and a guy who is around the boards when a crucial rebound is needed. He's a 28-10 guy on any given evening and without question one of the top 5 PF in the NBA.

What he's NOT is Tim Duncan (a shutdown defensive guy). The sooner some people realize that and respect it, the sooner they can appreciate what Amare brings to the table.

Also, I find it hillarious that a number of the "lets trade Amare because he's underachieving and poor defensively" crowd were pining for guys like Dirk Nowitzki (you think Amare's mediocre defensively?? Next to Dirk, he looks like Bill ****ing Russell) and Tyrus Thomas (who has grossly underachieved and looks more and more like a never was).

I guess the grass is ALWAYS greener.....

 

[Black Jesus]

huh? Amare has definitly been on a losing team.....it was the year he missed games with injuries to his ankle and Marbury was shipped to New York.

he missed 30 games that season and JJ starting at point. you can't compare that. When Amare plays he hasn't been on a losing team, is that better for you?

 

[pokerface]

Look around this thread. Its the people that are claiming Jefferson is a solid defender, Amare as no passing skills and making up other lies to back up there opinions. It's people that sit in here with nothing to say other than what is a "Amare hater".

No one was talking about Jefferson when this thread started. So your point is mute.


I want to know who the haters Black Jesus was refering to.

 

[jandaman]

Are f**king kidding me?

Jefferson is a beast of a rebounder. He isnt an elite defender but comparable to guys like West, Boozer. Basically he grabs defensive rebounds, boxes out. He get beaten by elite post players but he neutralizes others.

He is not worse than Stoudemire.... who plays defense with his arms as oppose to his legs...

And HOW is Stoudemire's 21/8 better than Jefferson's 22/10?
He plays with friggin Kevin Love who is a very good rebounder already. Jefferson too is playing out of position at the C.

People here are putting down Jefferson to put up Stoudemire?


Lol... if Stoudemire is so much better it wouldnt even be brought up... But sad truth is.. Stoudemire is lingering on the same level as Jefferson this season atleast. But Jefferson still getting better...

Look at the matchup against Stoudemire vs Jefferson.



Bottomline.. You have 100 Million to sign a big man.
You pick the 25 ppg 9 rpg guy who relies on athletism, but has knee problems. Eho sooks when he doesnt get the ball and becomes passive.

Or a solid 20/10 guy who when not scoring will still give you the boards and big presense inside.


Stoudemire is the ONE who needs to prove he is better... because in the past he WAS better... now... its doubtful.

 

[jandaman]

Look around this thread. Its the people that are claiming Jefferson is a solid defender, Amare as no passing skills and making up other lies to back up there opinions. It's people that sit in here with nothing to say other than what is a "Amare hater".

Lol.

No one mentioned Jefferson until I did..
when I made comparisons in regards to who would you rather spend 100 Million dollars on for the next 6 years.

Jefferson grabs defensive rebounds more so than Stoudemire.. so yes he is a better defender in that sense he prevents less offensive rebounds. He also blocks more shots this season.


Jefferson still improving...

Stoudemire is loafing... wheres the improvements?

in the past no question, Stoudemire > Jefferson. But this season, with his attitude and lack of effort..and lack of improvement on defense and rebounding... its very close between them 2. Jefferson younger, Stoudemire bad knee.

 

[Sovereignz]

jan, no offense but try taking your nose out of the stat sheet once in a while.

No one is disputing that Amare is not a good defender. We all know he isn't. But trying to lend Jefferson credibility as a defensive player (he's beyond abysmal) by saying he's no worse than Carlos Boozer... lol. Al Jeff, Boozer, Villanueva, Randolph.. as bad as Amare is defensively, those guys are all on a tier of their own as being the only guys you could say for sure that are worse.