Amare Ought to be Embarassed

[elindholm]

The Suns can survive Frye's poor shooting. What they can't survive is Frye's completely absent defense when he's not shooting well. He misses a couple of shots and then completely checks out mentally. Stoudemire has been terrible defensively also, but his effort picks up when he's getting help from another big-man teammate. Frye wasn't benched because he couldn't hit a shot, but because he let the misses destroy his concentration. That was all Stoudemire needed to give up his own effort, and that was the end.

 

[Black Jesus]

How about Frye watching that layup missed right in front of him?

Play Dudley. He has been the only one to show some heart this series. Lopez has been okay too.

 

[TucsonDevil]

Frye wasn't benched because he couldn't hit a shot, but because he let the misses destroy his concentration.

Half dozen in one, 6 in the other. Frye misses shots - then gives up. He is mentally weak. Therefore I disagree - Frye has to make shots for the Suns to have a chance.

 

[AzStevenCal]

How in the world can you guys lay so much blame on Frye for this loss. The Lakers have owned him all season but this loss is his??? Why not blame Earl Clark, Frye only earns 225 thousand a year more than that guy. Oh wait, is it because Clark didn't play? Well, guess what, Frye didn't play a whole lot longer than Clark. 9 Minutes of court time but he's the reason we lost.

When Frye entered the game in the 4th quarter we were about to shoot FT's trailing 97-93. When Frye exited the game we had possession of the ball trailing 101-95. Do you really want to point at him and say those 2 points cost us the game?

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Frye misses shots - then gives up. He is mentally weak. Therefore I disagree - Frye has to make shots for the Suns to have a chance.

Frye always misses shots on the road. Frye always plays poorly against LA. If anything, blame the coach for failing to learn from history.

Steve

 

[TJ]

All true... but you failed to mention that he is also killing us in this series. The only way we would have a shot against LA is if we were getting 25 points from the point. Nash is not even a legit offensive threat. He is still a great passer, but that's it... he can't even push the ball up the court with any serious pace any longer.
The Lakers are not at all concerned with Nash in terms of shooting. And what's worse, Steve still can't get off any shots. He can't create. He's nothing offensively. This puts HUGE amounts of pressure on the rest of the team.
Further, this would be workable if we were getting bigtime contributions from J-Rich. The Lakers are able to keep Artest on J-Rich full time. Artest never has to concern himself with Nash... It's painful to watch...

See I dont agree w/ Nash being a primary scorer. The Suns most successful games come when Nash has about 16 and 12. Not 25 and 7. That usually translates into the entire team struggling. Defenses know that if they can shut down the other guys on the floor and force Nash into shooting, we are vulnerable. Nash's 15 assists were a clear indication that he was finding his scorers and they were hitting their shots.

A general perspective as to why we lost: we gave up 120+. Even with Suns basketball, we arent going to win those games, unless we are playing Golden State. This was definitely a team loss, but if you are going to put blame on anyone, it would make more sense to pin it on Frye and Amare. Trust me, Nash was not even close to being the weakest link

 

[Griffin]

Statistically no, but i'm assuming you watched the games so i can only respectfully say to watch them again. There has been WAY too much dribble penetration by the LAKERS and it's not all on Hill,Dud's,Dragic.

This is not THE biggest problem we're facing here(it's old hat actually), i just don't think its fair for everyone to call out Amare as the guy out there who cant defend when neither man can defend worth a **** and never will.

Nash was in there against Farmar in the 3rd if i'm not mistaken.
I have no problem blaming Amare for being a poodle on the boards, but to expect him to defend while giving Nash a pass is perplexing.

The entire team has been horrible on defense, so obviously it's not just Amare's fault in that regard. Though one could argue that others are at least trying, but that's a matter of perception. Sadly, whatever defensive improvements we have made this season seem to have been greatly exaggerated and easily negated by a strong opponent.

 

[D-Dogg]

I don't understand why we can't all agree that the refs suck.

Please tell me you are being sarcastic. Or that you are actually Mike D'Antoni.

FFS.

 

[82CardsGrad]

See I dont agree w/ Nash being a primary scorer. The Suns most successful games come when Nash has about 16 and 12. Not 25 and 7. That usually translates into the entire team struggling. Defenses know that if they can shut down the other guys on the floor and force Nash into shooting, we are vulnerable. Nash's 15 assists were a clear indication that he was finding his scorers and they were hitting their shots.

Nash (or anyone playing the point for us) needs to score more. Period. It's the only way we will have a chance against this Lakers team.

A general perspective as to why we lost: we gave up 120+. Even with Suns basketball, we arent going to win those games, unless we are playing Golden State. This was definitely a team loss, but if you are going to put blame on anyone, it would make more sense to pin it on Frye and Amare. Trust me, Nash was not even close to being the weakest link

We lost because we can't score more than the Lakers. Period. I don't care if the Lakers were scoring 100 points, 110 or 120. We stll need to find a way to score more than they do. And that won't happen by the this Suns team attempting to play "better" defense. They can't. They have no answers for the Lakers talent and offensive skill. We just need to accept it and know that the Lakers could have very easily put up a bunch more points in the first two games if they really wanted to...
Therefore, while we have several "weak links", at the core of those weak links is a huge gap in scoring from the point. I contend that if Nash were able to put up a 25 point game, you would see J-Rich seriously go off as well. Not to mention the increased space that would be created for Amare...
We're gonna need more than 75-80 points per game just from Nash, J-Rich and Amare in order to grab a win against this Lakers team.
Hill getting 23 only means that the Lakers are doing a great job on Amare and others, and are allowing Hill to go off... They are totally fine with that scenario.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Please tell me you are being sarcastic. Or that you are actually Mike D'Antoni.

FFS.

It really doesn't need to be sarcasm. Ignore the right calls/wrong calls stuff and focus on the simple fact that they allowed contact on our point guard as a matter of course. A lot of refs will allow teams to swat at the players hand while dribbling and passing and when we run into those refs Nash's efficiency drops considerably.

Nash had his hand/wrist/arm slapped and grabbed often in these two games and it just destroys him. I'm not saying it was biased reffing because they may very well have allowed us the same option. As a biased fan I'm much more aware of the times the refs make bad calls against us so I can't really speak to the fairness of the calls but the style of reffing definitely hurt us.

Steve

 

[nashman]

Exactly AZstevencal the Lakers are allowed to play very physical defense on us but if we graze Kobe then the whistles are blowing. I mean Odum fouled the hell out of Barbs when he got his head split open and it ends up being Lakers ball with no foul???? What a joke the Lakers get home court treatment like no other team in the league!

 

[AzStevenCal]

Exactly AZstevencal the Lakers are allowed to play very physical defense on us but if we graze Kobe then the whistles are blowing. I mean Odum fouled the hell out of Barbs when he got his head split open and it ends up being Lakers ball with no foul???? What a joke the Lakers get home court treatment like no other team in the league!

Well, that's not actually my point. I saw a lot of bad calls our way but as a Suns fan I'm much more likely to notice them. Odom clearly fouled Barbosa, Kobe clearly hacked Nash on that late turnover pass and there were plenty of other bad calls (happens every game). But I know that Duds and Lou get pretty physical out there also and although I didn't see a lot of them I'd imagine Lakers fans noticed their share of missed calls against them too.

My problem was more with the overall style allowed especially on the perimeter. Derek was getting away with way too much contact on Nash and the Lakers were allowed to slap away any time Nash tried to penetrate or pass in a crowd. When Fisher is allowed to play that way he becomes an excellent defender but when he draws refs that don't allow that he becomes a liability. We got the refs that allow it.

Steve

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't see why they don't try Nash and Dragic together in the back court and run Nash off screens like the Celtics do Ray Allen. Even if Nash doesn't take the three, he can take his man off the dribble and create.

i mentioned this to cheese as we were walking into staples. he gave a pretty good response that it's not really nash's game and we'd be trying to create a new offense in the wcf's, which would be pretty difficult to do.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

last night, at staples, i was embarrassed that i was ever an amare fan. that's how indifferent, ineffective, and flat out stupid amare appeared to me, in person.

others can share the blame, but only amare's lack of effort and stupidity actually incur my wrath.

 

[TJ]

Nash (or anyone playing the point for us) needs to score more. Period. It's the only way we will have a chance against this Lakers team.



We lost because we can't score more than the Lakers. Period. I don't care if the Lakers were scoring 100 points, 110 or 120. We stll need to find a way to score more than they do. And that won't happen by the this Suns team attempting to play "better" defense. They can't. They have no answers for the Lakers talent and offensive skill. We just need to accept it and know that the Lakers could have very easily put up a bunch more points in the first two games if they really wanted to...
Therefore, while we have several "weak links", at the core of those weak links is a huge gap in scoring from the point. I contend that if Nash were able to put up a 25 point game, you would see J-Rich seriously go off as well. Not to mention the increased space that would be created for Amare...
We're gonna need more than 75-80 points per game just from Nash, J-Rich and Amare in order to grab a win against this Lakers team.
Hill getting 23 only means that the Lakers are doing a great job on Amare and others, and are allowing Hill to go off... They are totally fine with that scenario.

Fundamental basketball. Score more than the opponent.

This is why D'Antoni always got obliterated by the media in the playoffs. Because he had this philosophy to ignore defense and focus on shooting. Our goal should NOT be to exceed the 120+ points they score, but to find a way to keep that number down by containing the bigs and make Kobe attempt to win the game by himself. The defense was pathetic last night. I cant count how many times Odom and Gasol were just sitting there wide open waiting for Kobe to get them the ball so they could put the ball in as easy as I can put a slice of pizza in the microwave.

112 points is more than sufficient to win ball games. With our revamped style of play which consists of frenetic play on offense and stingy defense, there is no reason why we cant keep the Lakers in the upper 90s very low 100s. That's how you win the ball game. Scoring 130 against the Lakers is a pipe dream.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Nash (or anyone playing the point for us) needs to score more. Period. It's the only way we will have a chance against this Lakers team.

Mike D? Is that you?

We lost because we can't score more than the Lakers. Period. I don't care if the Lakers were scoring 100 points, 110 or 120. We stll need to find a way to score more than they do. And that won't happen by the this Suns team attempting to play "better" defense. They can't. They have no answers for the Lakers talent and offensive skill. We just need to accept it and know that the Lakers could have very easily put up a bunch more points in the first two games if they really wanted to...

Or we could've had guys like Amare actually try on defense and on the boards and given up less points.

I agree, we really don't have the personnel to stop this Lakers team, but we have zero chance of winning this series by trying to outscore the Lakers. They're just way too well-coached and way too efficient on both ends whereas we are highly efficient offensively but horrid defensively. It's up to Steve Kerr and co. this summer to try and bridge that gap.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Fundamental basketball. Score more than the opponent.

This is why D'Antoni always got obliterated by the media in the playoffs. Because he had this philosophy to ignore defense and focus on shooting. Our goal should NOT be to exceed the 120+ points they score, but to find a way to keep that number down by containing the bigs and make Kobe attempt to win the game by himself. The defense was pathetic last night. I cant count how many times Odom and Gasol were just sitting there wide open waiting for Kobe to get them the ball so they could put the ball in as easy as I can put a slice of pizza in the microwave.

112 points is more than sufficient to win ball games. With our revamped style of play which consists of frenetic play on offense and stingy defense, there is no reason why we cant keep the Lakers in the upper 90s very low 100s. That's how you win the ball game. Scoring 130 against the Lakers is a pipe dream.

You're asking a team to suddenly stand up and do something in the Western Conference Finals, they really haven't ever done... This team did improve defensively. But c'mon...going from ZERO defense to a smidge of defense is not nearly adequate during the Western Conference Finals. It was enough to get by an beat and under-talented Blazer team. And it was enough to get by a Spurs team that is aging and under-talented. But against a team like the Lakers, there is no way this Suns team will be able to suddenly learn a style of defense that would somehow offer up even a mild bit of contention... Amare and Nash take up two critical spots on the floor, but are entirely useless on the defense. J-Rich is one notch above useless. Lopez tries but is a rookie and is consistently and easily schooled. Grant Hill is of course the best of the bunch, but even he is completely out of his league and no match for Kobe, Artest and/or Odom. Duds plays a solid brand of defense, but he see's less minutes coming off the bench. Frye?? LMAO.... Barbs? Uh, no... Dragic? Potential there, but man he's looked totally lost thus far in these two games - including on the offensive end as well. Lou? Solid.

Nope... for this team in this series, the only solution is to open up the floor and out-shoot the Lakers, while hoping and praying that Kobe, Odom and Gasol have off-nights and/or blow out there knees... That's it.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

I think 82 has the right approach on this one and I have been one of the loudest in my b*tching about the structure of our roster....

 

[TJ]

You're asking a team to suddenly stand up and do something in the Western Conference Finals, they really haven't ever done... This team did improve defensively. But c'mon...going from ZERO defense to a smidge of defense is not nearly adequate during the Western Conference Finals. It was enough to get by an beat and under-talented Blazer team. And it was enough to get by a Spurs team that is aging and under-talented. But against a team like the Lakers, there is no way this Suns team will be able to suddenly learn a style of defense that would somehow offer up even a mild bit of contention... Amare and Nash take up two critical spots on the floor, but are entirely useless on the defense. J-Rich is one notch above useless. Lopez tries but is a rookie and is consistently and easily schooled. Grant Hill is of course the best of the bunch, but even he is completely out of his league and no match for Kobe, Artest and/or Odom. Duds plays a solid brand of defense, but he see's less minutes coming off the bench. Frye?? LMAO.... Barbs? Uh, no... Dragic? Potential there, but man he's looked totally lost thus far in these two games - including on the offensive end as well. Lou? Solid.

Nope... for this team in this series, the only solution is to open up the floor and out-shoot the Lakers, while hoping and praying that Kobe, Odom and Gasol have off-nights and/or blow out there knees... That's it.

But you're asking a team to outscore a team that they simply cant outscore....

In both games, the team shot 49.4% and the Lakers shot around 58%. You mean to tell me that we are going to out shoot them with their length inside contesting any and all penetration and arguably the best perimeter defense in the league?? In theory, yes. But Im simply not buying it. You have to have a combination of good shooting and solid defense to beat this team. You just cannot let them get easy lay ups like that, in the NBA or the YMCA.

And if you do try to make Nash a scorer, they are simply going to collapse on him and force him into distributing which then becomes turnovers. It's just not going to work.

What has also gone unmentioned is the fact that they seem to be right in the middle of our passing lanes. Our passes always seem to get tipped or intercepted. At times, I thought JaMarcus Russell was out there throwing the ball.

The bottom line is we are over matched and the only way to change that is to wait until next season. I had high aspirations and tried like hell to convince myself and others around me that we would at least make this a competitive series. Now I walk around with egg on my face.

 

[elindholm]

I had high aspirations and tried like hell to convince myself and others around me that we would at least make this a competitive series. Now I walk around with egg on my face.

The Suns aren't that far off. Game 2 was tied at the end of three quarters, in spite of everything that had gone wrong to that point. Then the Lakers milked the Bryant/Gasol pick-and-roll, Stoudemire's brain left the building, and that was that.

If the Laker bench stops playing like a bunch of All-Stars and the entire Suns team gets back into a defensive frame of mind, they can be competitive. That's not really too much to ask. Maybe if they win Game 3, they'll start believing it's possible, and that could inspire them to bring the same kind of effort that they did against the Spurs.

 

[Hayduke]

Doesn't Amare have any guy friends who will laugh at him and tell he looks like a bitch on D? That's what he needs.

 

[Michael]

The Suns aren't that far off. Game 2 was tied at the end of three quarters, in spite of everything that had gone wrong to that point. Then the Lakers milked the Bryant/Gasol pick-and-roll, Stoudemire's brain left the building, and that was that.

If the Laker bench stops playing like a bunch of All-Stars and the entire Suns team gets back into a defensive frame of mind, they can be competitive. That's not really too much to ask. Maybe if they win Game 3, they'll start believing it's possible, and that could inspire them to bring the same kind of effort that they did against the Spurs.

I thought the Suns had a pretty good game until then! I mean, you wont have Dudley going 5/5 from three and Grant Hill lighting up the scoreboard every game.
I rather felt that only the defense wasn't working. But that is nothing I would call as 'gone wrong'. Sure, the Lakers made a lot of threes, but Bryant wasn't heating up, nor was anybody in foul trouble.
It's quiet clear that our defense is just not capable of competing with the Lakers' big guys and we might have to get used to the same stuff for the rest of the series.

 

[elindholm]

It's quiet clear that our defense is just not capable of competing with the Lakers' big guys

I just don't agree with that. The way that everyone keeps talking about how big the Lakers are is a gross exaggeration. Bynum hardly plays, so it's Gasol at C, Odom at PF, and typically Artest or even Bryant at SF. That's hugely big? If the Suns were to play Frye and Stoudemire together, they'd be giving up only about an inch at each position. It's not working, because neither Frye nor Stoudemire is giving a shred of effort defensively. But it's not because they can't do it or face a horrible size mismatch.

 

[D-Dogg]

I just don't agree with that. The way that everyone keeps talking about how big the Lakers are is a gross exaggeration. Bynum hardly plays, so it's Gasol at C, Odom at PF, and typically Artest or even Bryant at SF. That's hugely big? If the Suns were to play Frye and Stoudemire together, they'd be giving up only about an inch at each position. It's not working, because neither Frye nor Stoudemire is giving a shred of effort defensively. But it's not because they can't do it or face a horrible size mismatch.

It's not size that is the issue. It is quality size. Having big guys is one thing. Having talented bigs that can also pass in the post like guards and that hit the boards well is what creates the matchup pressue. The Lakers have quality size in Bynum, Gasol and Odom.

To compare Frye and Amare together against that lineup and boil it down to inches isn't a fair comparison. Frye doesn't even play around the rim at all, and Lamar is a much better player than Frye (when he's awake...Lamar can go invisible sometimes). At their best play, Lamar is a no-brainer over Frye.

 

[82CardsGrad]

It's not size that is the issue. It is quality size. Having big guys is one thing. Having talented bigs that can also pass in the post like guards and that hit the boards well is what creates the matchup pressue. The Lakers have quality size in Bynum, Gasol and Odom.

To compare Frye and Amare together against that lineup and boil it down to inches isn't a fair comparison. Frye doesn't even play around the rim at all, and Lamar is a much better player than Frye (when he's awake...Lamar can go invisible sometimes). At their best play, Lamar is a no-brainer over Frye.

Totally agree... it's stunning that someone would even attempt to toss in a combination of Amare and Frye as a way to compare size versus the Lakers!
Both Amare and Frye are nothing but gigantic liabilities if you are discussing size. They defend and can't rebound. So who the hell cares about their height?? They might as well be 6 feet tall...