Amare Ought to be Embarassed

[GorrilaLips]

i thought it was funny the radio stations in phx refused to put the "d" in Stou_amire until he finds his balls to defend

 

[elindholm]

It's not size that is the issue. It is quality size. Having big guys is one thing. Having talented bigs that can also pass in the post like guards and that hit the boards well is what creates the matchup pressue.

Yes, of course. But some people are talking about how the Lakers are giants and the Suns are dwarfs, and that's the difference in the series. It isn't.

If Stoudemire could play at the level he was toward the end of the regular season, he should be able to hold Gasol to a draw, at worst. Gasol is taller and a better passer, but Stoudemire is quicker and stronger. Right now it's no contest, but it's because Stoudemire is checked out on defense, not because Gasol is intrinsically a vastly superior player.

To compare Frye and Amare together against that lineup and boil it down to inches isn't a fair comparison.

Obviously. I'm surprised that you would stoop to misrepresenting my post that way; it's below your usual level of decorum. Odom is much better than Frye, that's no secret, but it doesn't excuse Frye from being a complete no-show. Against the Spurs, Frye defended Duncan somewhat adequately, and Duncan's a pretty good player too. In fact, some people outside of Los Angeles might even consider Duncan to be better than Odom.

 

[D-Dogg]

I guess I wasn't following your point, e. I wasn't misrepresenting it; I must have misinterpreted it.

 

[Covert Rain]

I just don't agree with that. The way that everyone keeps talking about how big the Lakers are is a gross exaggeration. Bynum hardly plays, so it's Gasol at C, Odom at PF, and typically Artest or even Bryant at SF. That's hugely big? If the Suns were to play Frye and Stoudemire together, they'd be giving up only about an inch at each position. It's not working, because neither Frye nor Stoudemire is giving a shred of effort defensively. But it's not because they can't do it or face a horrible size mismatch.

It is because they can't do it for long stretches. When the Suns have been playing inferior front lines night in and night out you don't see their flaws as much. Factor in that the team was playing great TEAM defense and getting big rebounding nights out of other guys that hid alot of what really was going on.

The Lakers front line is more consistent and better then our front line. They rebound more consistently and play in the paint on both ends more consistently. Amare or Frye playing enough defense or getting just enough rebounds to get bye doesn't work against a title contender.

That is where the size factor comes in. Guys like Hill and JRich are not going to out rebound Odom/Artest etc. Balls that those guys were getting their hands on are going to the Lakers. I have watched 2 games in a row where balls that Lou used to gobble up, he is barely getting one hand on. It might only be an inch or so but it obviously is making a difference.

Remember what Gentry said before the season started? He said rebounding would be a factor and that other guys need to step up. He knew the Suns were not going to get consistent rebounding out of this front line. He knew our SF to guards were going to have to pick up the slack. The Lakers present a match up in which you have multiple guys that can post you up and get into the paint. Really the Lakers just exposed our weakness on our front line. With us playing bad defense, not being able to space the floor we have no way to make up for it.

Now factor in that Nash appears to be having trouble seeing passing lanes because of the Lakers front court....I just don't know how you can say size isn't a factor.

 

[elindholm]

I guess I wasn't following your point, e. I wasn't misrepresenting it; I must have misinterpreted it.

Okay, all I mean is, it's not size specifically where the Suns are getting killed, and not even size among rotation players. The Lakers' bigs are destroying the Suns' bigs, but it's not because they're bigger or tons better. It's because the Suns' bigs haven't shown up -- except for Lopez, who has pretty much made Bynum a non-factor.

 

[TucsonDevil]

In fact, some people outside of Los Angeles might even consider Duncan to be better than Odom.

That is the first time I have laughed since the 1st quarter of Game 1. Thanks.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

except for Lopez, who has pretty much made Bynum a non-factor.

Which makes it all the more puzzling that Lopez wasn't brought in during the 4th to prevent the layup lane. Pretty hard to understand.

 

[Joe Mama]

Yes, of course. But some people are talking about how the Lakers are giants and the Suns are dwarfs, and that's the difference in the series. It isn't.

If Stoudemire could play at the level he was toward the end of the regular season, he should be able to hold Gasol to a draw, at worst. Gasol is taller and a better passer, but Stoudemire is quicker and stronger. Right now it's no contest, but it's because Stoudemire is checked out on defense, not because Gasol is intrinsically a vastly superior player.

I agree that Amare Stoudemire is a horrid defender. Not only does he just check out from time to time, but he's just not that smart. He doesn't see things happening the way could defenders do. Lamar Odom and Channing Frye are the same size. Gasol is about 3 inches taller than Amare Stoudemire and he probably has 5-6 inches at least on his standing reach. Gasol is huge. The problem for Amare offensively is that Gasol is just standing 5 feet or more back into the lane and giving Amare the jumpshot. Gasol is already the kind of defender that gives Amare trouble because he is so long and athletic.

I'm been Channing Frye has disappeared so far. His shooting has been awful, but the reason it's been awful was because I'm not sure he has taken an open shot yet. Every time he goes to shoot he has Odom's hand right up in his face. The Lakers game plan has been working perfectly so far this series, and then add to it that guys like Shannon Brown and Farmar are hitting just about every three-point shot they take and it's easy to see why they have a 2-0 lead. Even Ron Artest is hitting his open shots and even most of his shots were he has somebody's hand in front of him. The only hope I have is that these guys won't be able to do that on the road.

Where is Lonnie Jones when we need him?

Joe

 

[jagu]

Amare has no defensive intelligence. It breaks open the defense and the Lakers know it. One pick and roll is enough to send the Suns defense on their heels. As for Frye, totally disagree, he's had wide open shots and bricked them. He's scared on the road, simple as that and its been that way for most of the playoffs and regular season too. Add to that his lack of intelligence on defense and you have two giant players who can't play a lick of defense.

 

[Michael]

I just don't agree with that. The way that everyone keeps talking about how big the Lakers are is a gross exaggeration. Bynum hardly plays, so it's Gasol at C, Odom at PF, and typically Artest or even Bryant at SF. That's hugely big? If the Suns were to play Frye and Stoudemire together, they'd be giving up only about an inch at each position. It's not working, because neither Frye nor Stoudemire is giving a shred of effort defensively. But it's not because they can't do it or face a horrible size mismatch.

I don't just mean height. Gasol's wingspan seems to dwarf Stoudemire's significantly. Whenever Gasol catches the ball high or puts up one of his hook shots, it looks totally out of reach for everybody. The same for Odom who is just so much longer than Hill that Grant cannot stop him in the low post.
On the other end of the court, Amar'e always looks as if somebody is gonna block his shot under the basket.
Surely, this has as much to do with commitment and skill than with pure size, but it seems to make a massive difference to me.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

LET ME EXPLAIN SOMETHING TO YOU,CHILD

Talk about the definition of irony.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I agree that Amare Stoudemire is a horrid defender. Not only does he just check out from time to time, but he's just not that smart. He doesn't see things happening the way could defenders do. Lamar Odom and Channing Frye are the same size. Gasol is about 3 inches taller than Amare Stoudemire and he probably has 5-6 inches at least on his standing reach. Gasol is huge. The problem for Amare offensively is that Gasol is just standing 5 feet or more back into the lane and giving Amare the jumpshot. Gasol is already the kind of defender that gives Amare trouble because he is so long and athletic.

I'm been Channing Frye has disappeared so far. His shooting has been awful, but the reason it's been awful was because I'm not sure he has taken an open shot yet. Every time he goes to shoot he has Odom's hand right up in his face. The Lakers game plan has been working perfectly so far this series, and then add to it that guys like Shannon Brown and Farmar are hitting just about every three-point shot they take and it's easy to see why they have a 2-0 lead. Even Ron Artest is hitting his open shots and even most of his shots were he has somebody's hand in front of him. The only hope I have is that these guys won't be able to do that on the road.

Where is Lonnie Jones when we need him?

Joe

Good to have you back Joe, where the hell have you been?

 

[Cheesebeef]

and i have no life...

kudos for admitting this. acceptance is the first step towards inner change.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

here you go with your awesome posts again

Thanks man...did you decide to take my advice and get a life? For a minute there you looked like the most pathetic loser we've seen in awhile. The nice thing about losers like you is, if your team wins the series, you think it somehow reflects on you.

Newsflash! Even if the Lakers win it all, like last year, you'll wake up the next day and still be a pitiful joke. Something to look forward to, I'm sure.

 

[BC867]

Still, I just don't know how a guy who's 6"10 and plays 40 mins a game, only manages to grab 9 boards in two games... How is that popssible?????

I do not like how Amar'e is letting the team down . . . but

Amar'e is not now, nor has he ever been 6' 10". He is a 6' 9" Power Forward, who could not make the All Star game as a Forward. So he was hyped by the team as a Center. And his roster height changed.

When he is the only "big" man on the court for the Suns, he cannot carry the load against a triple-big Lakers front line. Who could?

That was the biggest loss of Lopez going down.

I believe Amar'e would have excelled at what he does best -- offense -- and gotten by with mediocre, but improving defense and rebounding, if Lopez had not been hurt.

I guess we'll never know. Too much damage has been done to his psyche to ever hope for that to happen with the Suns.

 

[Sunburn]

Which makes it all the more puzzling that Lopez wasn't brought in during the 4th to prevent the layup lane. Pretty hard to understand.

According to Chaplin, it's because he was too gassed to play after 18 whole minutes of burn for the game.

 

[jagu]

“I’m doing everything the coaching staff is asking me to do, every single thing,” he said after the Suns’ workout, “from fronting the post, to doubling Kobe, to helping out. Those guys are big down there.”

Stoudemire might be playing his final games for Phoenix. He can opt out of the final year of his contract with the Suns after this season and would like a maximum deal. He was one of the most dominant players in the NBA since the All-Star break, but two games against the Lakers have rekindled debate as to whether he is worth that much money.

“I understand. That’s fine, that’s fine,” Stoudemire said. “Last year, this same team with Shaq, we didn’t make the playoffs. You get rid of Shaq and add me and we’re in the Western Conference finals. That alone should tell you what I bring to the team.”

Stoudemire said Gasol is helped by the company he keeps.

“He’s very, very crafty,” Stoudemire said. “He’s great using his left and right hand. He’s a phenomenal player. But he has help. He has a lot of help with (Andrew) Bynum, Odom, (Ron) Artest. The lineup they have on the court, you’ve got to guard all those guys, not just Gasol.”

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Alnx3MPGaR_oC98s.oiVFle8vLYF?slug=ap-lakers-suns

 

[Arizona's Finest]

The Lakers are just a bad matchup for Amare with their wing spans, agility, and overall understanding of the game.

Amare isn't playing Memphis or Golden State anymore when he was getting all his numbers the 2nd half and was engaged and active.

With "Black Jesus" (that should have been the first warning sign there) when its not going easy for him, he curls into a ball and lets the rest of his game go to ****. Theres really nothing more to it.

We'll miss him and there will be much hand wringing, but Amare is a not a guy I want my team to go to war with and be in the foxhole with. Especially not at max money.

He'll have games where we will regret his leaving, and he might even win a ring with a Alpha dog like Wade or Lebron. But we ain't getting either of those guys, so there is no point in keeping him.

At this point I just hope we can work out a sign and trade.

 

[Sunburn]

““I understand. That’s fine, that’s fine,” Stoudemire said. “Last year, this same team with Shaq, we didn’t make the playoffs. You get rid of Shaq and add me and we’re in the Western Conference finals. That alone should tell you what I bring to the team.”

”

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Alnx3MPGaR_oC98s.oiVFle8vLYF?slug=ap-lakers-suns

Nice how he's giving himself the credit for the Suns making it to the Western Conference Finals. Classy. I'm liking Stat less and less with each passing day.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

The Lakers are just a bad matchup for Amare with their wing spans, agility, and overall understanding of the game.

Amare isn't playing Memphis or Golden State anymore when he was getting all his numbers the 2nd half and was engaged and active.

With "Black Jesus" (that should have been the first warning sign there) when its not going easy for him, he curls into a ball and lets the rest of his game go to ****. Theres really nothing more to it.

We'll miss him and there will be much hand wringing, but Amare is a not a guy I want my team to go to war with and be in the foxhole with. Especially not at max money.

He'll have games where we will regret his leaving, and he might even win a ring with a Alpha dog like Wade or Lebron. But we ain't getting either of those guys, so there is no point in keeping him.

At this point I just hope we can work out a sign and trade.

The good news is that the only way that he'll get the money that we all "think" he'll demand is through a s&t. However, if there are no teams willing to go there, there are several that can get close without a s&t. Therein lies the risk. We really should have traded him when we had some level of control on this....

 

[elindholm]

We really should have traded him when we had some level of control on this....

Why? All of the offers were crap. It's not like the Suns didn't shop him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The Lakers are just a bad matchup for Amare with their wing spans, agility, and overall understanding of the game.

Amare isn't playing Memphis or Golden State anymore when he was getting all his numbers the 2nd half and was engaged and active.

Well, how do you explain the lackluster effort against Portland and San Antonio. His numbers have been down throughout this years playoffs, not just against LA (going into the LA series he was down 7 points and 3 rebounds from earlier playoff runs). And he played well against a lot of teams during the second half of this season, not just the Memphis and Golden State type teams.

Pau Gasol never used to be able to guard him straight up but now Amare is relegated to taking the 16 foot shot instead of taking it to the rim. There may be occasional help waiting but LA isn't the first team to help out on defense. And he doesn't look any better on defense against the Lakers than he did as a rookie.

Steve

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Well, how do you explain the lackluster effort against Portland and San Antonio. His numbers have been down throughout this years playoffs, not just against LA (going into the LA series he was down 7 points and 3 rebounds from earlier playoff runs). And he played well against a lot of teams during the second half of this season, not just the Memphis and Golden State type teams.

Thats my point. The Blazers and Spurs have good big men too. No where near the Lakers, but Amare wasn't exactly a tour de force in Rounds 1 and 2 either.

Pau Gasol never used to be able to guard him straight up but now Amare is relegated to taking the 16 foot shot instead of taking it to the rim. There may be occasional help waiting but LA isn't the first team to help out on defense. And he doesn't look any better on defense against the Lakers than he did as a rookie.

Steve

I think you missed the ENTIRE point of what I was saying. Amare is active and engaged when the competition is low or he is having his way with an opponent (see Spurs series 5 years ago) but when things aren't going his way (think what you want but the Lakers are a terrible match up for him because they embarass his low NBQ IQ on offense and there is always someone behind them on defense making him a jump shooter) rather then fight through it he just gives up and deflects blame and makes sure he gets his points.

The bottom line is the Lakers are not only super talented. They are brilliantly coached as well. I don't think I have ever seen the pick and roll defended to the level it has been this series. And when Amare isn't getting fed from Nash on the pick and roll, he becomes a complete non factor.

He gives up. Done. Hes not a fighter, hes a front runner. He might get pissed and be a little more agressive these next two games, but when the chips are down, Ill take the less talented and older Grant Hill then Amare at this point.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Thats my point. The Blazers and Spurs have good big men too. No where near the Lakers, but Amare wasn't exactly a tour de force in Rounds 1 and 2 either.




I think you missed the ENTIRE point of what I was saying. Amare is active and engaged when the competition is low or he is having his way with an opponent (see Spurs series 5 years ago) but when things aren't going his way (think what you want but the Lakers are a terrible match up for him because they embarass his low NBQ IQ on offense and there is always someone behind them on defense making him a jump shooter) rather then fight through it he just gives up and deflects blame and makes sure he gets his points.

The bottom line is the Lakers are not only super talented. They are brilliantly coached as well. I don't think I have ever seen the pick and roll defended to the level it has been this series. And when Amare isn't getting fed from Nash on the pick and roll, he becomes a complete non factor.

He gives up. Done. Hes not a fighter, hes a front runner. He might get pissed and be a little more agressive these next two games, but when the chips are down, Ill take the less talented and older Grant Hill then Amare at this point.

you and I don't see eye to eye on too much, but I think you've hit the nail on the head here. And i don't expect a pissed/more aggressive Amare. I'm habing flashbacks to his 7/9 and 15/11 performances against the Spurs when we went down 3-0 in 2008.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

you and I don't see eye to eye on too much

Ahhh Cheesie, I am going to disagree with you here. I only quote your posts when I DON'T agree with what you are saying.

So the vast majority of the time we are on the same page