Another reason why Gortat needs to start

[AzStevenCal]

Well I guess we will never know. We won't know if that will help the Suns starters get more rebounds or prevent more early runs. We won't get to see if getting in early rebounding deficits or preventing few paint points early will make a difference. We won't know if Gortat can actually play better getting more time with the starters. We won't know if Gortat being gassed at the end of the 2nd or 4th because he played the previous 10 minutes would have an impact either down the stretch of each half.

+1. I agree with this except for the "we will never know" part. I think Gortat will end up starting before this season ends.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

Developing Lopez is extremely important. This is the time when we should be developing young players. It's working. What in the world is there to gripe about?

 

[Covert Rain]

Developing Lopez is extremely important. This is the time when we should be developing young players. It's working. What in the world is there to gripe about?

If your definition of "working" is showing up to rebound in double digits every 36 games then your right.

Hopefully, we will have a fully competent center by the time he is 30.

Our recent losses had nothing to do with early runs or early rebounding deficits, they are all about the bench melting down. Of course, that also includes Gortat, but I know nobody wants to hear that.

They didn't? Because Gentry made a comment on the radio that the team keeps digging themselves in holes early in periods and spends the next quarter trying to figure out how to get out. He said it has been a problem all season.

The bench meltdowns are 100% a factor. However, maybe we are expecting these guys to do too much?

The Suns Bench is already #2 in the NBA in total rebounding per game and the 4th best scoring bench. If this bench needs to be #1 in both those categories to prevent meltdowns....what is that is that saying about our starters?

If this team played a lick of defense, then the offensive output of our bench becomes less important and the Suns wouldn't have to rely on it even when Nash went to the bench.

Case & Point:

The Suns have a better scoring & rebounding benches then Boston, Chicago, Miami, Oklahoma, Lakers & San Antonio all which lead the NBA in the standing column.

Still think our bench is the main problem?

Here is the problem:

Starters
8th worst in the NBA at defending Opposing team Scoring
2nd worst rebounding starting lineup in the NBA

 

[Chaplin]

If your definition of "working" is showing up to rebound in double digits every 36 games then your right.

Hopefully, we will have a fully competent center by the time he is 30.





They didn't? Because Gentry made a comment on the radio that the team keeps digging themselves in holes early in periods and spends the next quarter trying to figure out how to get out. He said it has been a problem all season.

The bench meltdowns are 100% a factor. However, maybe we are expecting these guys to do too much?

The Suns Bench is already #2 in the NBA in total rebounding per game and the 4th best scoring bench. If this bench needs to be #1 in both those categories to prevent meltdowns....what is that is that saying about our starters?

If this team played a lick of defense, then the offensive output of our bench becomes less important and the Suns wouldn't have to rely on it even when Nash went to the bench.

Case & Point:

The Suns have a better scoring & rebounding benches then Boston, Chicago, Miami, Oklahoma, Lakers & San Antonio all which lead the NBA in the standing column.

Still think our bench is the main problem?

I'm guessing you're using season-long statistics. Watching the past 15 games (or even since the trade), the bench hasn't been good. A blind man could see that. And even if our scoring is high for the bench, their defense has been abyssmal. And that shouldn't be so with guys like Dudley and Pietrus on it.

 

[Griffin]

The bench meltdowns are 100% a factor. However, maybe we are expecting these guys to do too much?

These meltdowns occur while Nash is out. So we are talking about roughly 10-15 minutes a game. Is it expecting too much that we don't get outscored by double-digits in those few minutes?

The Suns Bench is already #2 in the NBA in total rebounding per game and the 4th best scoring bench. If this bench needs to be #1 in both those categories to prevent meltdowns....what is that is that saying about our starters?

Our bench players are good when they play with Nash. That's where those numbers come from. But if you were to look at our statistics while Nash is resting, you'd see the the team rank at the bottom of the league in just about every category. Again, I don't expect the team to outplay the opponent while Nash is resting, although last season they did that quite often. But if they could just hold the lead instead of getting outscored every time, it would solve our biggest problem right now. You just can't expect the Nash-led unit to have to outscore the opponent by double-digits every night just to offset the damage done while he sat.

 

[Covert Rain]

These meltdowns occur while Nash is out. So we are talking about roughly 10-15 minutes a game. Is it expecting too much that we don't get outscored by double-digits in those few minutes?

Evidently it is because the Suns face what 99% of the other teams face when their stars go to the bench. This problem is not unique to the Suns. The difference is other teams can rely on better defensive play through the game which means they rely on bench scoring even less then we do.

Our bench players are good when they play with Nash. That's where those numbers come from.

That is not where those numbers come from. It's the cumulative output of players off the bench that do not start. The starters numbers are cumulative of players that start each game.

 

[desertdawg]

These meltdowns occur while Nash is out. So we are talking about roughly 10-15 minutes a game. Is it expecting too much that we don't get outscored by double-digits in those few minutes?

Our bench players are good when they play with Nash. That's where those numbers come from. But if you were to look at our statistics while Nash is resting, you'd see the the team rank at the bottom of the league in just about every category. Again, I don't expect the team to outplay the opponent while Nash is resting, although last season they did that quite often. But if they could just hold the lead instead of getting outscored every time, it would solve our biggest problem right now. You just can't expect the Nash-led unit to have to outscore the opponent by double-digits every night just to offset the damage done while he sat.

Lets put last nights Lopez highlites on a tape with a kickass emotional rock song in the background, and shop him around for a nice point guard.

 

[Chaplin]

That is not where those numbers come from. It's the cumulative output of players off the bench that do not start. The starters numbers are cumulative of players that start each game.

Um, yes, but those numbers aren't a result of bench players playing only with bench players and starters playing only with starters.

 

[Covert Rain]

Um, yes, but those numbers aren't a result of bench players playing only with bench players and starters playing only with starters.

I will confirm but I believe it is based on players designated as starters and their cumulative stats and players coming off the bench and their cumulative stats.

At any rate, even if they used some pseudo calculation to determine what the starters do first 10 minutes of a quarter versus 2nd part of the qaurter, it still is a very good indicator if you believe it or not.

 

[slinslin]

How can anyone complain or get focus on double digit rebounds when Robin hardly ever played more than 15 minutes even when he was extremly productive on per minute basis.

Oh did you know that Gortat has by far the 2nd worst +/- net stats on the entire team? Only Dragic is worse.

Nash +21.1
..
..
..
Dudley/Carter + 0.1
Pietrus -4.6
Childress -5.5
Warrick -6.6
Gortat -15.2
Dragic -16.6

Lawal is at -47, Siler at -7 and Dowdell at -1.4 but they all have less than 2% minutes played respectively.

There is more to a player than the total numbers that show up in the boxscore after the game.

 

[Mainstreet]

All this moaning and groaning about who the Suns start at center when the real problem is the Suns weakness at SG and backup PG. I guess it is easier to complain about Lopez starting ahead of Gortat that worry about the Suns major weakness.

 

[desertdawg]

How can anyone complain or get focus on double digit rebounds when Robin hardly ever played more than 15 minutes even when he was extremly productive on per minute basis.

Oh did you know that Gortat has by far the 2nd worst +/- net stats on the entire team? Only Dragic is worse.

Nash +21.1
..
..
..
Dudley/Carter + 0.1
Pietrus -4.6
Childress -5.5
Warrick -6.6
Gortat -15.2
Dragic -16.6

Lawal is at -47, Siler at -7 and Dowdell at 1.4 but they all have less than 2% minutes played respectively.

There is more to a player than the total numbers that show up in the boxscore after the game.

Good point, we should mention that to other teams while we are shopping Lopez.

 

[desertdawg]

All this moaning and groaning about who the Suns start at center when the real problem is the Suns weakness at SG and backup PG. I guess it is easier to complain about Lopez starting ahead of Gortat that worry about the Suns major weakness.

More fun too, our back up point guards are quite depressing.

 

[Covert Rain]

How can anyone complain or get focus on double digit rebounds when Robin hardly ever played more than 15 minutes even when he was extremly productive on per minute basis.

Oh did you know that Gortat has by far the 2nd worst +/- net stats on the entire team? Only Dragic is worse.

Nash +21.1
..
..
..
Dudley/Carter + 0.1
Pietrus -4.6
Childress -5.5
Warrick -6.6
Gortat -15.2
Dragic -16.6

Lawal is at -47, Siler at -7 and Dowdell at 1.4 but they all have less than 2% minutes played respectively.

That isn't the only focus.

Robin as of today 45th most efficient center.

However, lets take a look at other players with his similar minutes. There are 35 players at that position in the NBA that play at least 10 minutes but fewer then 18. By your logic his limited minutes is the reason Lopez sucks. Never mind his defense is what usually gets him sent to the bench.

Out of those 35 players who play center with similar time or less here is where Robin ranks:

Efficiency - #33
Points - #35
Rebounds #25
Blocks #27
FG% #25
FT% #27

So, please explain to me how his minutes are keeping him from being any good when players playing the same minutes or less are clearly playing better then Robin Lopez?

 

[desertdawg]

That isn't the only focus.

Robin as of today 45th most efficient center.

However, lets take a look at other players with his similar minutes. There are 35 players at that position in the NBA that play at least 10 minutes but fewer then 18. By your logic his limited minutes is the reason reason Lopez sucks. Never mind his defense is what usually gets him sent to the bench.

Out of those 35 players who play center with similar time or less here is where Robin ranks:

Efficiency - #33
Points - #35
Rebounds #25
Blocks #27
FG% #25
FT% #27

So, please explain to me how his minutes are keeping him from being any good when players playing the same minutes or less are clearly playing better then Robin Lopez?

Don't be bringing this up when we shop Lopez!

 

[Griffin]

Evidently it is because the Suns face what 99% of the other teams face when their stars go to the bench. This problem is not unique to the Suns. The difference is other teams can rely on better defensive play through the game which means they rely on bench scoring even less then we do.

The problem may not be unique to the Suns, but you'd be hard-pressed to find another team where the drop-off in production when its best player leaves the game is so drastic. And yes, part of the reason the Nash-less Suns are getting outscored is poor defense. But 5 points in 6 minutes against Dallas, 4 points in 5 minutes against Utah, and 2 points in 4 minutes against the Kings (last three games) during Nash's second rest were ridiculously bad. We are not asking the bench to score a lot of points, but to score less than a point per minute is unacceptable by any team's standards.

That is not where those numbers come from. It's the cumulative output of players off the bench that do not start. The starters numbers are cumulative of players that start each game.

I should have been more specific. That is where a large chunk of those numbers comes from.

 

[Covert Rain]

I should have been more specific. That is where a large chunk of those numbers comes from.

As far as I know NONE of those number come from that. It was explained to me that those numbers are based on who starts each game for the Starters Stats and who comes off the bench each game for bench stats. So, in other words none of Nash's minutes count towards bench statistics unless for some reason he came off the bench for a game. I sent a note to the site stat guy. Trying to confirm.

 

[Gwindor]

As far as I know NONE of those number come from that. It was explained to me that those numbers are based on who starts each game for the Starters Stats and who comes off the bench each game for bench stats. So, in other words none of Nash's minutes count towards bench statistics unless for some reason he came off the bench for a game. I sent a note to the site stat guy. Trying to confirm.

Yeah, but he means that Suns bench point comes from Nash passes and when Dragic or ZD are there Suns effectiveness goes down A LOT. Bench point means only that non-starters score, not that none of the starters is in a lineup at the moment when basket was scored...

 

[Griffin]

As far as I know NONE of those number come from that. It was explained to me that those numbers are based on who starts each game for the Starters Stats and who comes off the bench each game for bench stats. So, in other words none of Nash's minutes count towards bench statistics unless for some reason he came off the bench for a game. I sent a note to the site stat guy. Trying to confirm.

I think we have a misunderstanding. I don't mean that Nash's personal stats count towards the bench stats. But the statistics that players who came off the bench accumulate while playing alongside Nash count towards those stats. Since Nash is only out of the game 15 minutes a night, and our best bench players play significantly more than that (25 min for Gortat, 24 min for Dudley), clearly a big chunk of their minutes is spent with Nash on the floor.

The only player who hardly ever sees any minutes with Nash is Dragic, so he's +/- is a good indication of how poorly the team is performing without Nash on the floor.

 

[BC867]

Starting Gortat would only make a very minor difference, if any at all. People keep harping on this for some crazy reason. We aren't losing games because Gortat is coming off the bench. Plain and simple. After last night's game, that becomes even MORE apparent.

Chap, that is not the point of this thread!

The point is that the Suns are neutralizing Gortat's potential by having him on the bench at the start of each half; playing longer consecutive minutes than anyone else on the team except for Frye (who has done so as a starter, not a sub); and missing key minutes of playing alongside Nash as part of the 1st unit. That was my point in starting this thread.

Minimizing Gortat's time on the floor without Nash (compared to the starters) would change our best Center having the +/- mentioned below.

Oh did you know that Gortat has by far the 2nd worst +/- net stats on the entire team?

This isn't about Marcin Gortat and his stats. It is about the team moving about mediocrity (.500) by using its best people wisely, especially in the 2nd most important position on the floor in the NBA.

 

[jagu]

How can anyone complain or get focus on double digit rebounds when Robin hardly ever played more than 15 minutes even when he was extremly productive on per minute basis.

Oh did you know that Gortat has by far the 2nd worst +/- net stats on the entire team? Only Dragic is worse.

Nash +21.1
..
..
..
Dudley/Carter + 0.1
Pietrus -4.6
Childress -5.5
Warrick -6.6
Gortat -15.2
Dragic -16.6

Lawal is at -47, Siler at -7 and Dowdell at -1.4 but they all have less than 2% minutes played respectively.

There is more to a player than the total numbers that show up in the boxscore after the game.

Woot + freaking - baby!!

 

[JCSunsfan]

Chap, that is not the point of this thread!

The point is that the Suns are neutralizing Gortat's potential by having him on the bench at the start of each half; playing longer consecutive minutes than anyone else on the team except for Frye (who has done so as a starter, not a sub); and missing key minutes of playing alongside Nash as part of the 1st unit. That was my point in starting this thread.

Minimizing Gortat's time on the floor without Nash (compared to the starters) would change our best Center having the +/- mentioned below.



This isn't about Marcin Gortat and his stats. It is about the team moving about mediocrity (.500) by using its best people wisely, especially in the 2nd most important position on the floor in the NBA.

Have you considered the possibility that Gortat will play with Dragic in the future, and that seeking to develop a chemistry between Gortat and Dragic might be more important for the future of this team?

Playing Lopez with Nash gives him the potential of more 13 and 13 nights. He does that a few more times and his trade value goes way up. It produces more value for the team than tanking the season.

 

[desertdawg]

Have you considered the possibility that Gortat will play with Dragic in the future, and that seeking to develop a chemistry between Gortat and Dragic might be more important for the future of this team?

Playing Lopez with Nash gives him the potential of more 13 and 13 nights. He does that a few more times and his trade value goes way up. It produces more value for the team than tanking the season.

Have you seen Goran play lately? Gortat is the best big we got, every team starts their best big but us. Maybe they are all crazy? This trying to come up with mythical reasons why Lopez should remain the starter is funny to me, like he will grow wings and become a graceful unicorn with bad hair if we keep starting him. Dude is a ways away,and Gortat is ready, it's really a no brainer and just a matter of time, akuna matada.

 

[Chaplin]

Chap, that is not the point of this thread!

The point is that the Suns are neutralizing Gortat's potential by having him on the bench at the start of each half; playing longer consecutive minutes than anyone else on the team except for Frye (who has done so as a starter, not a sub); and missing key minutes of playing alongside Nash as part of the 1st unit. That was my point in starting this thread.

Minimizing Gortat's time on the floor without Nash (compared to the starters) would change our best Center having the +/- mentioned below.



This isn't about Marcin Gortat and his stats. It is about the team moving about mediocrity (.500) by using its best people wisely, especially in the 2nd most important position on the floor in the NBA.

Really? It IS about Gortat starting, and again, I said it wouldn't really matter if he starts or not. How is that not what the thread is about?

And you do know that even though he's a bench guy, Gortat still gets more time on the floor with Nash than Lopez, right?

 

[BC867]

Really? It IS about Gortat starting.

No, it is about the SUNS putting their best player at each position on the court to establish a team mindset at the start of each half.

And you do know that even though he's a bench guy, Gortat still gets more time on the floor with Nash than Lopez, right?

Speaking about the start of each half, Lopez plays 5-6 minutes with Nash, while Gortat sits on the bench. That's 10-12 minutes, a quarter of each game.

I want to see the Suns start the game (each half) from a position of power. Consider Lopez next to Gortat and see who is more versed in power, basketball knowledge, team leadership, defense and rebounding on a steady basis.

It is more than the coach rewarding it. It's about the coach using it. Psychology is a part of competition. Putting the man-child Robin Lopez at the top of our totem pole doesn't intimidate our opponents.

I wonder if you have taken any courses in psychology. I have, both undergrad and post-grad. As the saying goes, you put your best foot forward. There is a reason for it.