Another reason why Gortat needs to start

[Covert Rain]

Guys...come on now. The Suns know better then other teams that starting an inferior play over a better one has no impact on a game at all. Just because other teams don't make it a practice has no bearing on this discussion and doesn't make Gentry any less of a genius. Slow starts to periods? Who cares. Giving up more points in the paint when said player is on the floor? Who cares. Our Bench can make up for any of that.

Gentry is the smarterst coach in the league. It's only a matter of time before he rips off 10 straight titles and does it with Nash finally ending his career at the age of 46.

 

[BC867]

Guys...come on now. The Suns know better then other teams that starting an inferior play over a better one has no impact on a game at all. Just because other teams don't make it a practice has no bearing on this discussion and doesn't make Gentry any less of a genius. Slow starts to periods? Who cares? Giving up more points in the paint when said player is on the floor? Who cares. Our Bench can make up for any of that.

Gentry is the smarterst coach in the league. It's only a matter of time before he rips of 10 straight titles and does it with Nash finally ending his career at the age of 46.

Now that's funny! Wait a minute. Is that how long it's going to take to find a legitimate backup for him?

 

[AzStevenCal]

No, it is about the SUNS putting their best player at each position on the court to establish a team mindset at the start of each half.


Speaking about the start of each half, Lopez plays 5-6 minutes with Nash, while Gortat sits on the bench. That's 10-12 minutes, a quarter of each game.

I want to see the Suns start the game (each half) from a position of power. Consider Lopez next to Gortat and see who is more versed in power, basketball knowledge, team leadership, defense and rebounding on a steady basis.

It is more than the coach rewarding it. It's about the coach using it. Psychology is a part of competition. Putting the man-child Robin Lopez at the top of our totem pole doesn't intimidate our opponents.

I wonder if you have taken any courses in psychology. I have, both undergrad and post-grad. As the saying goes, you put your best foot forward. There is a reason for it.

Everything you say seems to ignore one possibility. I don't know that I'm right but it seems logical to me that Gentry believes Robin CAN be developed into a quality center. IF that's the case, what's more important - an extra win or two this season or taking the steps the coach feels are necessary to build up Robin and turn him into a legitimate player?

You frequently rail over the team's inability to select, develop and keep quality big men. One of the more common complaints we've heard over the years (not necessarily from you, just in general) is that the Suns tend to sacrifice long term improvement for short term goals. Maybe, just maybe, this is our organization finally realizing that a win or two in the regular season (especially a regular season destined for mediocrity) isn't as important as preparing the team for success down the road (playoffs, future seasons etc).

I think there is a very good chance that Gentry is doing just what I've said. I don't have a problem with it. The only problem I have is that I'm not sure Gentry is correct. If Robin's ego is so fragile that he can't be moved to the bench when he's clearly the lesser option then I just don't see him ever becoming the kind of player that would make this effort justifiable. However, IMO, even though the odds are long, this season is a throwaway and if there was ever a time to invest in a long shot, it's now.

Steve

 

[desertdawg]

A game or two could be huge while trying to get into the playoffs or even mean a better seed. Maybe we should bench Nash, you know, if we want to build Dragic's future and not hurt his widdle fiwwings sounds like a good plan right ?

Every game we win right now is important, we are digging our selves out of a hole. I think it would result in more than just one or two more wins if we make the switch with a half of a season still to play.

Start the best players at each position and then go with who is playing well each night, it's gotta be in that "Coaching For Dummies" book, maybe I will get a copy and send it to Gentry.

 

[Mainstreet]

Everything you say seems to ignore one possibility. I don't know that I'm right but it seems logical to me that Gentry believes Robin CAN be developed into a quality center. IF that's the case, what's more important - an extra win or two this season or taking the steps the coach feels are necessary to build up Robin and turn him into a legitimate player?

You frequently rail over the team's inability to select, develop and keep quality big men. One of the more common complaints we've heard over the years (not necessarily from you, just in general) is that the Suns tend to sacrifice long term improvement for short term goals. Maybe, just maybe, this is our organization finally realizing that a win or two in the regular season (especially a regular season destined for mediocrity) isn't as important as preparing the team for success down the road (playoffs, future seasons etc).

I think there is a very good chance that Gentry is doing just what I've said. I don't have a problem with it. The only problem I have is that I'm not sure Gentry is correct. If Robin's ego is so fragile that he can't be moved to the bench when he's clearly the lesser option then I just don't see him ever becoming the kind of player that would make this effort justifiable. However, IMO, even though the odds are long, this season is a throwaway and if there was ever a time to invest in a long shot, it's now.

Steve

As you say, if Gentry doesn't feel Robin can be developed into a quality center, it makes no sense for Gentry to start him. Like most coaches, Gentry values his job. I don't think he is starting Lopez unless he believes the Suns can benefit... and that means Gentry as well. IMO, it is a fair statement that Gentry and/or the Suns FO wants Lopez developed to see what they have.

 

[AzStevenCal]

A game or two could be huge while trying to get into the playoffs or even mean a better seed. Maybe we should bench Nash, you know, if we want to build Dragic's future and not hurt his widdle fiwwings sounds like a good plan right ?

Every game we win right now is important, we are digging our selves out of a hole. I think it would result in more than just one or two more wins if we make the switch with a half of a season still to play.

Start the best players at each position and then go with who is playing well each night, it's gotta be in that "Coaching For Dummies" book, maybe I will get a copy and send it to Gentry.

Are you missing the point on purpose? I think it's a wasted effort trying to develop Lopez but what if it's not? What if handling him in this fashion has a similar impact on him as what occurred last year. We were all ready to toss the guy onto the trash heap based on his limited backup minutes. Gentry moved him into the starting lineup and we became a much better team because of it. If he'd stayed healthy we might even have given the Lakers a run of it in the postseason.

The world doesn't end after this season (I hope). IF, and it's a huge IF, handling Lopez in this fashion gives us even an outside chance at turning him into a decent player down the road, I'm more than willing to lose a game or two in the process. Making the playoffs this season isn't anywhere near as valuable as finishing this season with 2 quality big men. Some of us are tired of seeing the Suns trot out Warrick, Childress and Hill at the power positions.

Oh, and your absurd suggestion notwithstanding, there were several posters last year clamoring for Dragic over Nash for just the same reason you jokingly offered. Also, we are well past the halfway mark of the season. We have 28 games remaining and using Lopez and Gortat the way we have has us playing much better than we were a month ago. Maybe we could be a little better if they switched roles but it wasn't that long ago when many people here where complaining about Gentry's inability to stick with a lineup. How many fans will crucify him if he changes things around and it backfires?

Steve

 

[desertdawg]

Oh, and your absurd suggestion notwithstanding, there were several posters last year clamoring for Dragic over Nash for just the same reason you jokingly offered.

How many fans will crucify him if he changes things around and it backfires?

Steve

People really wanted to start Dragic over Nash? Were they the same ones who think Lopez should still be starting?

I wouldn't crucify anybody, I would be awfully surprised if starting Gortat over Lopez backfired, I would be shocked. Gortat is a starting caliber center, Lopez isn't and the next 28 games won't change that.

 

[BC867]

A game or two could be huge while trying to get into the playoffs or even mean a better seed

This is true. But my own reason for wanting to see our best Center become part of the "first team" goes beyond this season. Those who disagree haven't really addressed that.

If a rookie were destined to be our Center of the future, I could see protecting him by not pushing him into the starting unit too soon.

Neither Gortat nor Lopez are rookies. We've seen what each can do -- and what each can't do. We seem to all agree that Gortat is the better all-around Center, now and for the future.

Someone posted the example of the perennial champion Celtics playing John Havlicek off the bench for his first few years.

The Suns are not perennial champions -- our next will be our first. Ours is not a roster of All Stars like the Celtics. Gortat is not a Small Forward, as was Havlicek.

The sooner Marcin Gortat is promoted to the starting unit, the sooner he will be an anchor for the team, now and for years to come. Let's not stifle that.

The secondary factor is that Gortat was happy to leave the Magic because he was buried in a backup role. True, he is playing more minutes here, but does anyone think keeping him in a backup role will want him to stay with the Suns? Then we'll be stuck with forever projects like Robin Lopez as our starting Center.

Just when the Suns have an opportunity to excel (as during the Barkley experiment), too many Suns fans want to present mediocre lineups. I find it frustrating.

 

[slinslin]

I find it ironic how someone can call someone "the anchor of a team" who is the 2nd worst in net +/- by a huge margin at -15 !!!

I guess I should be rooting for Gortat to be an anchor for our team because that would probably mean we have hit rock bottom and can look at potential top 5 picks.

 

[Mainstreet]

This is true. But my own reason for wanting to see our best Center become part of the "first team" goes beyond this season. Those who disagree haven't really addressed that.

If a rookie were destined to be our Center of the future, I could see protecting him by not pushing him into the starting unit too soon.

Neither Gortat nor Lopez are rookies. We've seen what each can do -- and what each can't do. We seem to all agree that Gortat is the better all-around Center, now and for the future.

I'm no longer conceding this point. The fact that Lopez is only 22 and Gortat is 27 gives me reason to pause. Can one say that Robin won't be better than Gortat? There are times that Robin's play is inconsistent but there is always the maturation process. He has youth on his side in regard to upside.

 

[BC867]

I find it ironic how someone can call someone "the anchor of a team" who is the 2nd worst in net +/- by a huge margin at -15 !!!

I can't believe that you overlooked my first paragraph.

But my own reason for wanting to see our best Center become part of the "first team" GOES BEYOND THIS SEASON. Those who disagree haven't really addressed that.

Ok, I shouted it. I'm looking at the big picture. Establishing our Center of the future now. What better year than this to put it on his shoulders and have him rise above the +/- of the 2nd unit?

 

[Chaplin]

I can't believe that you overlooked my first paragraph.


Ok, I shouted it. I'm looking at the big picture. Establishing our Center of the future now. What better year than this to put it on his shoulders and have him rise above the +/- of the 2nd unit?

Mainstreet brought up a good point. Gortat is 27 and Lopez is 22. How well or bad will Lopez be in 5 years? That's a pretty large gap in their ages. So right now, Gortat is better, no argument there, but like you said, you're thinking of the future. That doesn't seem to fit with your argument to start Marcin.

 

[BC867]

Mainstreet brought up a good point. Gortat is 27 and Lopez is 22. How well or bad will Lopez be in 5 years? That's a pretty large gap in their ages. So right now, Gortat is better, no argument there, but like you said, you're thinking of the future. That doesn't seem to fit with your argument to start Marcin.

Please look at it this way.

If Gortat were 34 or 35, on his way to being a declining starting Center, that would be true.

But at 27, Gortat has at least seven top-flite years ahead of him. Maybe more, because of his limited use in Orlando. OK, Lopez has five more. Maybe less, based on his injury history.

Look at each player now. Lopez has experience as a starter. Gortat, not yet. Each has three years behind him.

Really, who would you rather invest the next 7+ years in at the Center position?

I choose the one you defined as being better -- Marcin Gortat.

 

[Gwindor]

I find it ironic how someone can call someone "the anchor of a team" who is the 2nd worst in net +/- by a huge margin at -15 !!!

I found this one and only of arguments boring already... I'd like to see Lopez +/- stats if he'd play with Suns backup PG some minutes...

I'm not saying that Gortat is an allstar level C, at least not already, but if someone trying to say that at this moment Lopez is better center than Gortat on both sides of the floor (which i believe You trying to do right now by repeating over and over how bad Gortat stats in +/- are) it just makes me laugh. I also am not saying that Lopez won't be an allstar in the future coz he obviously have some flashes in single games, but as I said - right now he just don't play solid and consistient, which is IMHO crucial at center position in NBA. I believe that he could as well learn how to play solid and consistient while he could play as a backup center, exactly like Gortat was learning past 3 years from Howard.

 

[Chaplin]

I found this one and only of arguments boring already... I'd like to see Lopez +/- stats if he'd play with Suns backup PG some minutes...

I'm not saying that Gortat is an allstar level C, at least not already, but if someone trying to say that at this moment Lopez is better center than Gortat on both sides of the floor (which i believe You trying to do right now by repeating over and over how bad Gortat stats in +/- are) it just makes me laugh. I also am not saying that Lopez won't be an allstar in the future coz he obviously have some flashes in single games, but as I said - right now he just don't play solid and consistient, which is IMHO crucial at center position in NBA. I believe that he could as well learn how to play solid and consistient while he could play as a backup center, exactly like Gortat was learning past 3 years from Howard.

Who is trying to say that? I don't think anyone, not even slinslin, is saying that Lopez is better than Gortat right now.

 

[Gwindor]

Who is trying to say that? I don't think anyone, not even slinslin, is saying that Lopez is better than Gortat right now.

Well, maybe i missundestood that whole slinslin +/- talk... If so - I'm sorry, but my impression was that it was exactly what he wanted to say.

 

[Errntknght]

I find it ironic how someone can call someone "the anchor of a team" who is the 2nd worst in net +/- by a huge margin at -15 !!!

I guess I should be rooting for Gortat to be an anchor for our team because that would probably mean we have hit rock bottom and can look at potential top 5 picks.

As far as I can find the site, 82games.com, which you mentioned the last time you posted this same info, has stopped updating their data as of 1/19/2011 - go to their main page for the Phoenix Suns and you'll see that date listed as the last date they updated it.

Recently I posted current data from nbacom's plus/minus site and in this data all of the subs except Dudley, Dragic and Dowdell were very close together at about -.110/min. (Gortat right in the middle of them). Dudley was -.055/min and Dragic and Dowdell were at -.257/min and -.330/min, resp.

If you look at 2 man combinations on this site you will see that every player on the team (except Dowdell) has a positive +/- when he's on the floor with Nash - yes, even Dragic. There's no info about Dowdell with Nash and I wouldn't be surprised that they've never been on the floor together.

 

[sunsfan88]

Check out the sig.

 

[desertdawg]

Check out the sig.

LOL, you just got jacked holmes.

 

[sunsfan88]

LOL, you just got jacked holmes.

Its all good. How do you think I got it?

Jacked it from somebody else on a different forum.

I think everyone who wants Gortat to start should have it as their sig.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Please look at it this way.

If Gortat were 34 or 35, on his way to being a declining starting Center, that would be true.

But at 27, Gortat has at least seven top-flite years ahead of him. Maybe more, because of his limited use in Orlando. OK, Lopez has five more. Maybe less, based on his injury history.

Look at each player now. Lopez has experience as a starter. Gortat, not yet. Each has three years behind him.

Really, who would you rather invest the next 7+ years in at the Center position?

I choose the one you defined as being better -- Marcin Gortat.

OK. Here is my prediction. IF the Suns continue to develop Lopez, he will be better at 27 than Gortat is at 27. Feel free to bump this post in 5 years.

 

[elindholm]

OK. Here is my prediction. IF the Suns continue to develop Lopez, he will be better at 27 than Gortat is at 27. Feel free to bump this post in 5 years.

And here's my prediction: Whether Gortat starts or plays 30+ minutes off the bench will have precisely zero impact on his development.

 

[Errntknght]

Check out the sig.

I thought the forum rules did not allow videos in signatures... oh, well, I guess I'll just turn them back off.

 

[desertdawg]

OK. Here is my prediction. IF the Suns continue to develop Lopez, he will be better at 27 than Gortat is at 27. Feel free to bump this post in 5 years.

Keep the faith brother, that's cool, but we are in the now amigo. The debate basically comes down to "Should the best center start?" Folks that want Gortat to start seem to be relaxed, and happy we finally have a quality NBA respectable big man.

Some of the Lopez lovers are getting upset, (not you JCS) when Lopez could obviously use more time to grow into his own. He could learn a lot from Gortat, what I really like is how Lopez is usually the first one off the bench celebrating when Gortat does something cool, now that shows class. Lopez can be a stud in the future, who knows.

Like I said before, I aint wirried about it. Gortat will start soon enough.

 

[AzStevenCal]

And here's my prediction: Whether Gortat starts or plays 30+ minutes off the bench will have precisely zero impact on his development.

Really? You don't buy into the theory that if he isn't immediately inserted into the starting lineup that he'll take his ball and go home?

Steve