Anti Ayton Stuff Flowing Now

[Folster]

It’s embellished and played out.

They should really find a new slant.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

They should really find a new slant.

At some point there’s nothing new to discuss. On the positive or negative. We pretty much likely know everything there is to know about Ayton.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Ayton played out of position and the article never mentioned that. So they fail for providing some balance.

No the ringer mentions it and says it didnt effect the block rate of other people in the same situation like KAT and Willy Cauly Stein

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I think the quote below is where the ESPN article gets too focused.



Using AAU data is weak to me.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23771351/espn-draft-analytics-model-makes-nba-draft-projections

And the Ringer article seems to primarily focus on defense to knock him.

Ayton is not a finished product. They know he can walk on the NBA floor and contribute a double double.

This got brought up on Bickley's show today and because a freshman season is too small a sample size they go back to the AAU data as well. They wouldn't do that on a 3 or 4 year player

 

[Mainstreet]

This got brought up on Bickley's show today and because a freshman season is too small a sample size they go back to the AAU data as well. They wouldn't do that on a 3 or 4 year player

Interesting. Still I think using AAU data is weak.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

It’s embellished and played out.

I don't see how block rate and comparisons can be embellished. That is done at every draft and it has proven to be a pretty accurate indicator of success

 

[pokerface]

No the ringer mentions it and says it didnt effect the block rate of other people in the same situation like KAT and Willy Cauly Stein

Ok...still. Him playing out of position and with another big can affect his play. Besides all that he's just had one year of college...cripe.

 

[Russ Smith]

Using AAU data is a flaw to the algorithm (outside of some context and something to form a baseline, such as FT%). Not to mention this qualifier, to which I agree and also believe it is another flaw for the rest of their rankings outside the consensus top 4 (which they have):

I haven't read the article yet, if they're comparing their AAU stats on different teams, then yes it's stupid. But if they're comparing their AAU stats in the same league, like say the EYBL, then it has more meaning.

An aside on Ayton and Bagley, the rumor is that both are about to sign shoe contracts with.... Puma. Man Nike must be absolutely kicking themselves. Both those kids were Nike kids and in particular Nike essentially financed the Bagley family for 3 years of HS after the dad declared BK and lost his house to foreclosure. They went from foreclosed on to living in a million dollar gated community in LA with both kids attending expensive and private Sierra Canyon(LeBron's kids new school) entirely on Nike's dime paying the dad to "Coach" his son.

I still think it's the dads fault more than the kid but man talk about no loyalty at all.

 

[Russ Smith]

I am 100% agreement with them on what ESPN said about Melton and Holiday. Melton is vastly underrated and this is from someone who was quite happy UCLA didn't sign him out of HS(because I knew he wouldn't have played much since he wanted to play PG and we had Lonzo in the same class). He's a much better NBA prospect. Holiday can shoot it much better but Melton is bigger, longer, more athletic and a terrific defender.

I'd take either guy on the Warriors but there's no way in hell they're getting Melton, I hear he's a "sleeper" on a lot of NBA teams in that he's a kid who will get drafted higher than most have him rated

 

[overseascardfan]

You can’t even judge players in college because the system they are in won’t be the system they play in the NBA. Wendell Carter specifically mentioned some of his abilities were masked because of Duke’s system, Jay Williams agreed with him being a Duke alum. You can’t really gig Ayton for his defense in college because he had Ristic next to him so he had to do a lot of switching. You put Ayton on a team with a couple of capable defenders and not in a zone and his defense should improve. He has all the tools to be an elite defender he just needs coaching to fix flaws and improve IMO.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You can’t even judge players in college because the system they are in won’t be the system they play in the NBA. Wendell Carter specifically mentioned some of his abilities were masked because of Duke’s system, Jay Williams agreed with him being a Duke alum. You can’t really gig Ayton for his defense in college because he had Ristic next to him so he had to do a lot of switching. You put Ayton on a team with a couple of capable defenders and not in a zone and his defense should improve. He has all the tools to be an elite defender he just needs coaching to fix flaws and improve IMO.

So much is being made of Aytons poor block and steal rate numbers to criticize his defense and on the flip side so many arguments about his playing alongside ristic and away from the paint to defend him.

I’m going to take an entirely different tact - I watched him as often as I could this year and unfortunately what my eye test gave me was:

- A dispassionate, unengaged defender
- A player whose defense did not live up to his typically vast physical and athletic superiority over those he was defending against
- A guy whose spatial awareness seemed lacking
- A center who confounded me with poorly timing his block attempts despite have elite athleticism

I found all this surprising because I am a huge Zona and Ayton fan. So I’m not predisposed to look, or hope, for flaws.

And unfortunately I saw these traits over and over again and they didn’t seem, to my observation, to be getting better over the course of the season (though I’m sure someone will provide data showing otherwise).

The most indelibly etched images I have of Ayton defensively are his getting scorched by that unathletic kid from Texas A&M (not Robert Williams, the other guy) and just being used by that undersized “big” from Stanford - who went to town on him INSIDE the paint (not from the perimeter as has seem to become the narrative defending Ayton).

All that said, I am still 100% on the take him #1 wagon and would be shocked and dismayed and concerned if we don’t. But my eyes tell me what they tell me.

 

[Chaplin]

So much is being made of Aytons poor block and steal rate numbers to criticize his defense and on the flip side so many arguments about his playing alongside ristic and away from the paint to defend him.

I’m going to take an entirely different tact - I watched him as often as I could this year and unfortunately what my eye test gave me was:

- A dispassionate, unengaged defender
- A player whose defense did not live up to his typically vast physical and athletic superiority over those he was defending against
- A guy whose spatial awareness seemed lacking
- A center who confounded me with poorly timing his block attempts despite have elite athleticism

I found all this surprising because I am a huge Zona and Ayton fan. So I’m not predisposed to look, or hope, for flaws.

And unfortunately I saw these traits over and over again and they didn’t seem, to my observation, to be getting better over the course of the season (though I’m sure someone will provide data showing otherwise).

The most indelibly etched images I have of Ayton defensively are his getting scorched by that unathletic kid from Texas A&M (not Robert Williams, the other guy) and just being used by that undersized “big” from Stanford - who went to town on him INSIDE the paint (not from the perimeter as has seem to become the narrative defending Ayton).

All that said, I am still 100% on the take him #1 wagon and would be shocked and dismayed and concerned if we don’t. But my eyes tell me what they tell me.

Miller isn't a great coach to begin with, but with all the FBI and underachieving going on, I don't see how you can base any good observations on his one year of college. ANd he had spectacular offensive numbers, I expect him to improve across the board right away.

 

[Russ Smith]

So much is being made of Aytons poor block and steal rate numbers to criticize his defense and on the flip side so many arguments about his playing alongside ristic and away from the paint to defend him.

I’m going to take an entirely different tact - I watched him as often as I could this year and unfortunately what my eye test gave me was:

- A dispassionate, unengaged defender
- A player whose defense did not live up to his typically vast physical and athletic superiority over those he was defending against
- A guy whose spatial awareness seemed lacking
- A center who confounded me with poorly timing his block attempts despite have elite athleticism

I found all this surprising because I am a huge Zona and Ayton fan. So I’m not predisposed to look, or hope, for flaws.

And unfortunately I saw these traits over and over again and they didn’t seem, to my observation, to be getting better over the course of the season (though I’m sure someone will provide data showing otherwise).

The most indelibly etched images I have of Ayton defensively are his getting scorched by that unathletic kid from Texas A&M (not Robert Williams, the other guy) and just being used by that undersized “big” from Stanford - who went to town on him INSIDE the paint (not from the perimeter as has seem to become the narrative defending Ayton).

All that said, I am still 100% on the take him #1 wagon and would be shocked and dismayed and concerned if we don’t. But my eyes tell me what they tell me.

Agreed I keep saying it I think Ayton just has poor timing. I go back to how many times he lost the opening tip in jumpballs to guys who are shorter, have less reach, and have less vertical jump. He just doesn't seem to react quickly getting off his feet on things like jump balls and shot blocking.

I do think he improved during the year at simply having his hands up, at that size and length, simply extending his hands and challenging shots was enough to bother college players, earlier in the year he wasn't even doing that. So he IS coachable, and remember he didn't start playing hoops until he was 12, everyone calls Bamba raw(rightly so) but he grew up playing the game and has at least 2 older brothers who played college basketball, Ayton is the only kid in his family who played basketball, he didn't get serious until he got to the US.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Because he projects into today's NBA. Can protect the rim, switch onto guards, has length and a massive standing reach, and shot that projects with a good FT%. Not his fault Izzo refused to use him properly and with limited minutes.

I dont think his upside is as great as some of the other bigs, name Ayton, but you can see the talent and fit into what NBA teams are asking of their C's today.

The more I watch of JJJ, the more I think he'll be the secret best player in the draft. I'd still take Ayton though, because as much as I like JJJ, Ayton is still more polished. It's the reason I liked Tatum more than Jackson last year; polish DOES count. Too many NBA fans want guys with huge upside, that they miss out on the guys who are closer to finished products but are a wee bit less athletic.

JJJ looks like an outstanding athlete, but I'm a bit weary at his lesser production. Ayton is just so skilled, his offensive game looks like he has played in the NBA for a few years.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Miller isn't a great coach to begin with, but with all the FBI and underachieving going on, I don't see how you can base any good observations on his one year of college. ANd he had spectacular offensive numbers, I expect him to improve across the board right away.

I agree it’s a limited data set. And I agree Miller isn’t a great coach, that said he has ALWAYS hung his hat on defense. His teams (until this year) have almost always been pretty good defensively. And that’s what’s even more concerning, he had this beast in Ayton and his defense was worse than normal (yes the other guys seemed to stink defensively also - but a lot of them played the prior year and didn’t stink as badly as a team).

Finally, as I explicitly stated . . . I am just reporting what I PERSONALLY SAW. Those were my actual personal impressions and takeaways from watching him. It doesn’t mean that it will all automatically translate to the nba or that he can’t, or won’t, improve. Those were just my own personal obvservations from having watched, and keyed in on, him.

 

[pokerface]

So much is being made of Aytons poor block and steal rate numbers to criticize his defense and on the flip side so many arguments about his playing alongside ristic and away from the paint to defend him.

I’m going to take an entirely different tact - I watched him as often as I could this year and unfortunately what my eye test gave me was:

- A dispassionate, unengaged defender
- A player whose defense did not live up to his typically vast physical and athletic superiority over those he was defending against
- A guy whose spatial awareness seemed lacking
- A center who confounded me with poorly timing his block attempts despite have elite athleticism

I found all this surprising because I am a huge Zona and Ayton fan. So I’m not predisposed to look, or hope, for flaws.

And unfortunately I saw these traits over and over again and they didn’t seem, to my observation, to be getting better over the course of the season (though I’m sure someone will provide data showing otherwise).

The most indelibly etched images I have of Ayton defensively are his getting scorched by that unathletic kid from Texas A&M (not Robert Williams, the other guy) and just being used by that undersized “big” from Stanford - who went to town on him INSIDE the paint (not from the perimeter as has seem to become the narrative defending Ayton).

All that said, I am still 100% on the take him #1 wagon and would be shocked and dismayed and concerned if we don’t. But my eyes tell me what they tell me.

Well that is concerning! That would be terrible to have a center that can't/won't defend.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well that is concerning! That would be terrible to have a center that can't/won't defend.

Mind you I don’t think he’s a terrible defender, just not a great one and not a true rim protector. He just wasn’t what I would’ve hoped and expected him to be on that end of the floor.

That said he IS a superb athlete and as someone pointed out he cane to the game later in life. So hopefully with excellent coaching and desire this can change. I’m hoping so because I want him to be our center for two decades.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Well that is concerning! That would be terrible to have a center that can't/won't defend.

A lack of familiarity or understanding of his role in the defense could be responsible for all of this. Ayton is able to move out and defend guards on the perimeter, but that should be on occasion, not all the time like he did at UofA. I am sure that that was brand new for him. When you have a big that is supposed to defend guards outside and protect the rim, it is quite difficult to know when an how to break off of his man.

I am just appealing that what it LOOKED like, might not actually have been what was happening. Tentative play can look like a lack of motor.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

A lack of familiarity or understanding of his role in the defense could be responsible for all of this. Ayton is able to move out and defend guards on the perimeter, but that should be on occasion, not all the time like he did at UofA. I am sure that that was brand new for him. When you have a big that is supposed to defend guards outside and protect the rim, it is quite difficult to know when an how to break off of his man.

I am just appealing that what it LOOKED like, might not actually have been what was happening. Tentative play can look like a lack of motor.

True. I hope that’s the explanation. He did look a bit like a deer in the headlights.

 

[pokerface]

True. I hope that’s the explanation. He did look a bit like a deer in the headlights.

Well Ayton claims to be the most competitive player in the draft so hopefully he gets his juices going on the defensive end.

 

[Chaplin]

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[Krangodnzr]

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Whats the synopsis? I don't want to put in my CC info.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

I think Suns should draft Trae Young as PG and would give the team an extremely dynamic and young back court on par with many of the best in the West, especially 2 years down the line.

PG: Trae Young
SG: Devin Booker
SF: TJ Warren
PF: FA, Julius Randall/Derek Favors?
C: Chandler

 

[Phrazbit]

I think Suns should draft Trae Young as PG and would give the team an extremely dynamic and young back court on par with many of the best in the West, especially 2 years down the line.

PG: Trae Young
SG: Devin Booker
SF: TJ Warren
PF: FA, Julius Randall/Derek Favors?
C: Chandler

I think we should trade up to somewhere between 5-8, a position where drafting Young isn't crazy.

Young
Booker
Jackson
whoever
Ayton

 

[Chaplin]

Whats the synopsis? I don't want to put in my CC info.

Not a good synopsis, but the gist is that after crunching the numbers, Ayton's defensive positives outweigh his negatives. If that is accurate and not a straight opinion, that's huge IMO.

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