Are we all forgetting Amare's surgery?

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Amidst all of these trade talks, one of the big sticking points for those against an Amare for Garnett deal is that we'd be giving up our future. But what guarnatee do we have that Amare's knees will stay healthy. Microfracture surgery is a temporary fix. It works for guys like Jason Kidd who are already old guys (and Kidd never really made a full comeback), or guys like Zach Randolph who don't rely on athleticism.

I seriously think that by the time Garnett's age starts to catch up with him (typically around 35), that Amare will be going under the knife for a second time. By not trading for KG right now when he is a better player than Amare, we're going against the odds and putting all of our eggs in the Amare basket.

 

[elindholm]

Stoudemire had surgery?

 

[carey]

You must not be reading all the posts in the KG threads. Amare's knee has been brough up numerous times by the pro-KG people.

 

[Gaddabout]

This is one of those things best left between management and team doctors. It has been in the back of my mind and would be the only reason I could see the Suns trading Amare.

But I still think the primary reason they won't trade Amare for KG is because it creates a worse salary cap problem than the current one -- and with fewer rotation players than they already have. If it was really that big of an issue, Minny's doctors would point it out, too, and nix the deal.

 

[Covert Rain]

Amidst all of these trade talks, one of the big sticking points for those against an Amare for Garnett deal is that we'd be giving up our future. But what guarnatee do we have that Amare's knees will stay healthy. Microfracture surgery is a temporary fix. It works for guys like Jason Kidd who are already old guys (and Kidd never really made a full comeback), or guys like Zach Randolph who don't rely on athleticism.

I seriously think that by the time Garnett's age starts to catch up with him (typically around 35), that Amare will be going under the knife for a second time. By not trading for KG right now when he is a better player than Amare, we're going against the odds and putting all of our eggs in the Amare basket.

Nobody is forgetting. But nobody, not even the doctors are certain how long this will last or how bad it will be if it doesn't. Even if Amare went down again, he could still give us more years long after KG is out of the league.

Getting KG is no guarantee either. So if I had a choice between taking 2 players in which neither can guarantee a title... I take the 24 year old who has not reached his prime. Hands down and without hesitation.

 

[Mainstreet]

But I still think the primary reason they won't trade Amare for KG is because it creates a worse salary cap problem than the current one -- and with fewer rotation players than they already have. If it was really that big of an issue, Minny's doctors would point it out, too, and nix the deal.

I think this is the essence. The Suns really need more quality depth instead. And I think they have the chips to get it. I am not against a reasonable trade for Garnett but I do not want McHale dictating to the Suns the terms of a trade, especially when he can't run his own franchise.

 

[Mainstreet]

Nobody is forgetting. But nobody, not even the doctors are certain how long this will last or how bad it will be if it doesn't. Even if Amare went down again, he could still give us more years long after KG is out of the league.

Getting KG is no guarantee either. So if I had a choice between taking 2 players in which neither can guarantee a title... I take the 24 year old who has not reached his prime. Hands down and without hesitation.

I have used the projected longevity argument as well and I think it can be calculated within reasonable expectations.

 

[SunsTzu]

Stoudemire had surgery?

First I've heard of it. Hope he can recover in time for training camp.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Nobody is forgetting. But nobody, not even the doctors are certain how long this will last or how bad it will be if it doesn't. Even if Amare went down again, he could still give us more years long after KG is out of the league.

Getting KG is no guarantee either. So if I had a choice between taking 2 players in which neither can guarantee a title... I take the 24 year old who has not reached his prime. Hands down and without hesitation.

But has anybody actually had the surgery twice and come back successfully from it? I honestly don't know.

KG hasn't had any health issues his entire career. It isn't like STAT's injury that has a pretty consistent pattern of ending careers or severly limiting them. And KG for Amare isn't a straight push by any means.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But has anybody actually had the surgery twice and come back successfully from it? I honestly don't know.

KG hasn't had any health issues his entire career. It isn't like STAT's injury that has a pretty consistent pattern of ending careers or severly limiting them. And KG for Amare isn't a straight push by any means.

i don't know - i think we may be enterting a new era as far as micro-fracture is concerned. in the last couple years, we've seen 4 high-profile guys go under the knife... Randolph, Kidd, Kenyon Martine and Amare. Randolph just posted career best numbers, Kidd is just as good as he ever was and Amare was just named 1st Team ALL-NBA. The only player of note who's career has seemingly been destroyed has been Kenyon, but Kenyon's ALWAYS had injury problems dating back to college.

Is anyone talking about Kidd's next surgery or Randolph's next surgery? I think that loike anything else, with time, especially in medicine, a matter of a year or two can bring INCREDIBLE leaps forward regarding sports surgeries. Remember when a torn ACL was considered something that would leave an athelete to never be the same? That's not the case any more - sure there's still an effect for a year, but after that, if most guys really dedicate themselves, a torn ACL/MCL isn't the kiss of death it used to be. I think we're seeing the same thing with micro-fracture.

I also think the fact that the sugery COMPLETELY destroyed a couple careers, but most of those guys had prior knee problems or were coming into the end of their careers. I also think that because three of those careers which were destroyed were so close to home (Eric Swann, Wadsworth and Penny) that the spectre of their collapse hangs over a lot of people's heads. I know it did mine before the season when thinking about Amare. I thought he'd be a shell of himself, but by the end of the year, he was good enough to be 1st Team ALL-NBA - you just have to think about how incredible that is and how much this kid can do. Most of the horror stories of micro-fracture surgeries happened a decade ago and half a decade ago. That's such a long time, medically speaking with advances that have taken place.

 

[F-Dog]

If it wasn't for Amare's surgery, we wouldn't be discussing trades in the first place.

 

[Budden]

Listening to two people who disagree about microfracture surgery is like trying to arbitrate a disagreement between a guy who thinks human curiosity is so important that NASA should be written a blank check and the author of "The Moon Landing: The Government's Amazing Journey from Houston to 34th and 3rd where they shot the supposed moon landing in a stuido." Both people will use points to validate their points that the other side hasn't really look into enough to refute nor to agree with.

The fact is, Anfernee Hardaway was doing pretty well before his microfracture. But Penny was also soft and injury prone. Allen Houston had to retire after his microfracture. But he also had a microfracture surgery in 1996 and had like 8 great years afterwords. So did John Stockton. Did you know that? We really don't know if it's true, but I remember hearing it somewhere. At least, I think I did. Anyway though, the Suns doctors say Amare will need surgery again in 5 years. That sucks. Especially after he was set to come back 4 months after his initial microfracture surgery, according to the doctors right after his operation. Apparently, however, the doctors have become less skilled at the procedure over the last 10 years, because when Penny had it in 2000, the press release the Suns officials released immediately afterword was that he was set to be sidleined for approximately 4-6 weeks. Did I mention that John Stockton had micro on both knees and still played until he was 41? Or how Ron Jeremy had an experimental microfrcture surgery on his left nut when he was 11?

OK fine, all except for that last one are regularly heard. We've all heard about Amare's impending surgery 4 years down the road, or Penny's conspiracies, or how A. Houston had micro when he was 12 and that his doctor was Tony Shaloub from the hit show "Monk".. but who knows what to think about Amare. i don't. You sure as hell dont. So trading him because you think that you might have remembered hearing that he is going to have some sort of health problem has to be out of the question. But then again, what if he has a health problem, like a severe one?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Listening to two people who disagree about microfracture surgery is like trying to arbitrate a disagreement between a guy who thinks human curiosity is so important that NASA should be written a blank check and the author of "The Moon Landing: The Government's Amazing Journey from Houston to 34th and 3rd where they shot the supposed moon landing in a stuido." Both people will use points to validate their points that the other side hasn't really look into enough to refute nor to agree with.

The fact is, Anfernee Hardaway was doing pretty well before his microfracture. But Penny was also soft and injury prone. Allen Houston had to retire after his microfracture. But he also had a microfracture surgery in 1996 and had like 8 great years afterwords. So did John Stockton. Did you know that? We really don't know if it's true, but I remember hearing it somewhere. At least, I think I did. Anyway though, the Suns doctors say Amare will need surgery again in 5 years. That sucks. Especially after he was set to come back 4 months after his initial microfracture surgery, according to the doctors right after his operation. Apparently, however, the doctors have become less skilled at the procedure over the last 10 years, because when Penny had it in 2000, the press release the Suns officials released immediately afterword was that he was set to be sidleined for approximately 4-6 weeks. Did I mention that John Stockton had micro on both knees and still played until he was 41? Or how Ron Jeremy had an experimental microfrcture surgery on his left nut when he was 11?

OK fine, all except for that last one are regularly heard. We've all heard about Amare's impending surgery 4 years down the road, or Penny's conspiracies, or how A. Houston had micro when he was 12 and that his doctor was Tony Shaloub from the hit show "Monk".. but who knows what to think about Amare. i don't. You sure as hell dont. So trading him because you think that you might have remembered hearing that he is going to have some sort of health problem has to be out of the question. But then again, what if he has a health problem, like a severe one?

that's the most words ever used to say "everyone knows nothing" - congrats.

 

[Covert Rain]

But has anybody actually had the surgery twice and come back successfully from it? I honestly don't know.

KG hasn't had any health issues his entire career. It isn't like STAT's injury that has a pretty consistent pattern of ending careers or severly limiting them. And KG for Amare isn't a straight push by any means.

Yeah but adding 2 more points, 3 more rebounds and 3 more assists while replacing a paint PF (Amare) with a perimeter one (in KG) is more like a nudge not a push. Your not swapping KG for Kwame Brown.

Nobody knows what will happen with Amare. Your assuming anything happens at all. You choose to look at the worst case scenario and I the best. It's probably somewhere in between.

Plus you have to factor in age and the impact on the team over the long haul. Like I said on another thread. Look at where Amare is in his first full 4 seasons statistically and where KG was at that same time. Amare will be better then KG when all is said and done IMO.

Besides, if you swap KG for Amare and no title comes then you condemned this team to be at the bottom of the league for a very long time. There is nothing in KG's game to me that says title if you swap him with Amare.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

i don't know - i think we may be enterting a new era as far as micro-fracture is concerned. in the last couple years, we've seen 4 high-profile guys go under the knife... Randolph, Kidd, Kenyon Martine and Amare. Randolph just posted career best numbers, Kidd is just as good as he ever was and Amare was just named 1st Team ALL-NBA. The only player of note who's career has seemingly been destroyed has been Kenyon, but Kenyon's ALWAYS had injury problems dating back to college.

Is anyone talking about Kidd's next surgery or Randolph's next surgery? I think that loike anything else, with time, especially in medicine, a matter of a year or two can bring INCREDIBLE leaps forward regarding sports surgeries. Remember when a torn ACL was considered something that would leave an athelete to never be the same? That's not the case any more - sure there's still an effect for a year, but after that, if most guys really dedicate themselves, a torn ACL/MCL isn't the kiss of death it used to be. I think we're seeing the same thing with micro-fracture.

I also think the fact that the sugery COMPLETELY destroyed a couple careers, but most of those guys had prior knee problems or were coming into the end of their careers. I also think that because three of those careers which were destroyed were so close to home (Eric Swann, Wadsworth and Penny) that the spectre of their collapse hangs over a lot of people's heads. I know it did mine before the season when thinking about Amare. I thought he'd be a shell of himself, but by the end of the year, he was good enough to be 1st Team ALL-NBA - you just have to think about how incredible that is and how much this kid can do. Most of the horror stories of micro-fracture surgeries happened a decade ago and half a decade ago. That's such a long time, medically speaking with advances that have taken place.

Jason Kidd is not as good as he ever was. He's lost a step defensively, and you can see the affect that the surgery had on his game. The reason that Zach Randolph made a successful recovery is that he doesn't rely on athleticism at all. Stockton is a guard who didn't go through as much punishment as Stoudemire will. Kenyon Martin's career is over.

My point is that none of us know for sure what Amare's health situation will be in four or five years. Nobody knows if he'll ever get back to '04-'05 form. So it concerns me that by not dealing him for Garnett now, we basically designate him our franchise player when there are very serious concerns about his health.

 

[Covert Rain]

Jason Kidd is not as good as he ever was. He's lost a step defensively, and you can see the affect that the surgery had on his game. The reason that Zach Randolph made a successful recovery is that he doesn't rely on athleticism at all. Stockton is a guard who didn't go through as much punishment as Stoudemire will. Kenyon Martin's career is over.

My point is that none of us know for sure what Amare's health situation will be in four or five years. Nobody knows if he'll ever get back to '04-'05 form. So it concerns me that by not dealing him for Garnett now, we basically designate him our franchise player when there are very serious concerns about his health.

What Jason Kidd were you watching? He looked great this year. Also, Amare is about 90% the Amare of old IMO. That's still better then 100% of most players in the league. Having said that Amare is still ahead of where KG was in some areas by his 4th year.

Besides designated a 31 PF as your franchise is your idea of better? I think there is just as much of chance of Amare hurting his knee again as there is a 31 year old player who is closer to being out of the league then getting into it.

 

[cly2tw]

This is one of those things best left between management and team doctors. It has been in the back of my mind and would be the only reason I could see the Suns trading Amare.

.

In that very case, the first sign of Suns willing to trade Amare should scare away anybody interested, for fear of the so-called winner's curse.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Yeah but adding 2 more points, 3 more rebounds and 3 more assists while replacing a paint PF (Amare) with a perimeter one (in KG) is more like a nudge not a push. Your not swapping KG for Kwame Brown.

Nobody knows what will happen with Amare. Your assuming anything happens at all. You choose to look at the worst case scenario and I the best. It's probably somewhere in between.

Plus you have to factor in age and the impact on the team over the long haul. Like I said on another thread. Look at where Amare is in his first full 4 seasons statistically and where KG was at that same time. Amare will be better then KG when all is said and done IMO.

Besides, if you swap KG for Amare and no title comes then you condemned this team to be at the bottom of the league for a very long time. There is nothing in KG's game to me that says title if you swap him with Amare.

Garnett's biggest productions come with his rebounding and defense, both of which he does much better than Amare. He's a better fit for our system because of our versatility (he isn't Dirk, Garnett can play inside with the rest of them). He also doesn't come with any of Amare's emotional baggage, and I'm sure we won't hurt Nash/Bell/D'Antoni be calling him out over the course of the season like with Amare.

The worst case scenario with Amare's surgery is that he's out of the league in like four years. I don't think that's going to happen. However, what's probably the most likely to happen is he won't get the four inches back on his vertical, and he'll be stuck at 20/10 for his entire career. Not saying that's a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm not taking that over Kevin Garnett who averaged like 26/14/5 last time he had a decent point guard.

Right now we've won jack with Amare. I'm not sure how that's going to change in the recent future. Garnett gives you a better chance to win a title because he can go toe to toe and match the production of Duncan and Nowitzki while also adding a interior defensive presence that we lack with our current lineup. He also gives you much better passing skills, and an increased awareness to run the team while Nash is on the bench, or just to get other players open. He gives you maturity that Amare is sorely lacking, and won't be getting a bunch of ticky-tacky fouls and taking himself off the game. There's also no way that Garnett would've gotten up off the bench in game five.

Is that a guarnatee to win the title? No. But there are never any guarnatees; Kevin Garnett gives us the best chance to win the chip.

And if we don't swap Amare for KG, and Amare goes all Chirs Webber on us with his knees, then what are we left with? It's a two way street. We'd hardly be condemning the team, it's just a natural cycle of rebuilding.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Jason Kidd is not as good as he ever was. He's lost a step defensively, and you can see the affect that the surgery had on his game.

the guy averaged a triple double in the playoffs, at age 34, after micro-fracture - that's pretty damn impressive. You coould make the case that he's lost a step defensively because he's, well, 34 and everyone loses a step at that age, but there's still no one at that age who's averaging a triple double -hell, there's no one in the league that accomplished that.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

What Jason Kidd were you watching? He looked great this year. Also, Amare is about 90% the Amare of old IMO. That's still better then 100% of most players in the league. Having said that Amare is still ahead of where KG was in some areas by his 4th year.

Besides designated a 31 PF as your franchise is your idea of better? I think there is just as much of chance of Amare hurting his knee again as there is a 31 year old player who is closer to being out of the league then getting into it.

Oh, Kidd's a great player don't get me wrong, but he isn't as good as he was in his prime. Agreed on Amare at 90% being better than most players in the league, but I doubt if he ever gets back to where he was in 05. KG was putting up 21/10.5/4.5 in his fourth year and 22/11.5/5 when he was 24. Amare is close, but not there yet.

Considering microfracture ends like 70% of people's careers when they get it, and a ton of 31 year olds with no injury history put up fantastic years, I'm not sure where you're getting that.

I'd also like to note that if it wasn't for the surgery, I'd never trade Amare. By now I honestly feel that he'd be putting up KG type of numbers: 25/13/3.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The worst case scenario with Amare's surgery is that he's out of the league in like four years. I don't think that's going to happen. However, what's probably the most likely to happen is he won't get the four inches back on his vertical, and he'll be stuck at 20/10 for his entire career. Not saying that's a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm not taking that over Kevin Garnett who averaged like 26/14/5 last time he had a decent point guard.

yeah, I think you're really off on a lot of this - do you know why Amare only averaged 20 ppg? It's because he only shot the ball 12.5 times PER GAME - with Marion and Barbosa both taking more shots. If Amare is actually utilized as he was in the playoffs, he's just as capable of going back to the 2004-5 numbers, as he proved over the courseof the playoffs.

And KG NEVER avgeraged 26 ppg - his highest EVER was 24 and that was at his PEAK - t age 27 - he's 4 yyears older now and has never shown the ability to average the type of offensive numbers you've put up there. GREAT players don't need a GREAT PG to achieve those numbers - Barkley NEVER did, Dirk doesn't, Duncan wouldn't need to and on and on and on. The reason... eh, forget it. When you start saying that Amare is likely to go Chris Webber on us, it just leads me to believe you're not willing to have an open-conversation about the topic because there's nothing similar in each rehab's and performance post surgery to suspect that will be the pattern.

 

[pokerface]

the guy averaged a triple double in the playoffs, at age 34, after micro-fracture - that's pretty damn impressive. You coould make the case that he's lost a step defensively because he's, well, 34 and everyone loses a step at that age, but there's still no one at that age who's averaging a triple double -hell, there's no one in the league that accomplished that.

There are two different issues...quality of play and durability.

Amare and Kidd have passed the "quality" phase....they are playing on a high level post surgery.

Durability is yet to be determined in the up coming years. Its like we're heading in uncharted territory there.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh, Kidd's a great player don't get me wrong, but he isn't as good as he was in his prime. Agreed on Amare at 90% being better than most players in the league, but I doubt if he ever gets back to where he was in 05. KG was putting up 21/10.5/4.5 in his fourth year and 22/11.5/5 when he was 24. Amare is close, but not there yet.

Considering microfracture ends like 70% of people's careers when they get it, and a ton of 31 year olds with no injury history put up fantastic years, I'm not sure where you're getting that.

I'd also like to note that if it wasn't for the surgery, I'd never trade Amare. By now I honestly feel that he'd be putting up KG type of numbers: 25/13/3.

yeah, except 25.13/3 aren't KG numbers - he's never gone above 22ppg except ONE year - three years ago. And if Amare never had the surgery, he'd be a 30 ppg scorer by now -he was already at 26 before he got injured.

KG brings us no closer to a title and just destroys the future IMO. And for everyone who wants to keep saying the offense is fine, it's the defense that needs help - well, uess what - you're wrong - our offense in the Conference Finals the last three years has gone belly up, reaching our regular season average THREE TIMES in 17 games - the offense isn't as efficient because Marion gets knocked down four pegs and we can't afford that to happen, especially considering that KG hardly raises his game to the level that Amare does in post-season play - KG bumps from 20 ppg career to 22 on much worse shooting, while Amare elevates from 19 to 25 on similar rebounds.

no thanks to getting older, a little bit better defensively, but taking a HUGE step back on offense IMO.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

yeah, I think you're really off on a lot of this - do you know why Amare only averaged 20 ppg? It's because he only shot the ball 12.5 times PER GAME - with Marion and Barbosa both taking more shots. If Amare is actually utilized as he was in the playoffs, he's just as capable of going back to the 2004-5 numbers, as he proved over the courseof the playoffs.

And KG NEVER avgeraged 26 ppg - his highest EVER was 24 and that was at his PEAK - t age 27 - he's 4 yyears older now and has never shown the ability to average the type of offensive numbers you've put up there. GREAT players don't need a GREAT PG to achieve those numbers - Barkley NEVER did, Dirk doesn't, Duncan wouldn't need to and on and on and on. The reason... eh, forget it. When you start saying that Amare is likely to go Chris Webber on us, it just leads me to believe you're not willing to have an open-conversation about the topic because there's nothing similar in each rehab's and performance post surgery to suspect that will be the pattern.

Amare, by his own admission, has lost some of his vertical and lateral quickness. He's a different player than he was back in '05.

Sorry, I was wrong off the top of my head. He was just entering his peak at age 27, and still puts up great numbers without a decent point guard (I don't really think you could consider Sam Cassell great). And Garnett puts up better numbers than Duncan and Dirk, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

And I didn't say Amare is like Chris Webber, I was just referring to what happened to C-Webb's career and the impact that it had on his play. The pattern for microfracture on athletic big guys is pretty disheartening.

 

[cly2tw]

Besides, if you swap KG for Amare and no title comes then you condemned this team to be at the bottom of the league for a very long time. There is nothing in KG's game to me that says title if you swap him with Amare.

Truer words have never be said. As someone pointed out, you at least need one really dominant scorer, who could score no matter what, on the team to win the title in this league. The only exception was Pistons with very balanced scoring ability among the starters and an incredible defense that caught an old team on its decline.

Spurs have TD while Parker is very close to that category. There are Kobe, Wade, LBJ that belong to that. Then, it is Amare, who has the potential and is about 80% into that class. He just needs to be given more chances to work on his back to basket moves. (And Yao, Dirk, Anthony and Iverson count as 60% each into it. )

What'd we have with KG replacing Amare and half of the bench? We'd be relying on Nash even more with a similar results as in the past playoffs, unless GS eliminate both Mavs and Spurs to meet us in the WCF. But then, we'd be winning either way.