Arizona's #1 Problem: Dennis Green

[SuperSpck]

Shark
- the LT, if you spoke to him, you spoke to god, it was either because you'd done great, or messed up bad.

 

[Dan H]

Why is Walter posting under a different account?

 

[jefftheshark]

Shark
- the LT, if you spoke to him, you spoke to god, it was either because you'd done great, or messed up bad.

Okay, I "grok" that. (I know, different book)

Thanks

The Shark

 

[joeshmo]

I would say true in most cases. But Green has been given the power with personel and coaching that almost no other coach has ever been given.

But he doesnt have control over one key element. $$$$$$

There is one common thing over the life of this franchise in the free agent era and beyond, and that is lossing and the B's. Coincidence.

We have ripped coaches and players of old and present since the beginning of time, maybe it is time we start ripping the real problem who never surround the actual talented players and coaching talent we do have with a supporting staff/talent. And thats if they pay for any shred of talent in the first place.

I have met Mickey B and he is a really nice guy so it is really hard to bash him and his father but Until they start to change the way they do business, I will not bash another coach or player until I see that they are appropriatly surrounded by a supporting staff and arent handcuffed by the all mighty dollar. The new stadium and revenue scources do give me hope though.

And no this isnt in defense of Green or any players becuase they do have their faults and I will agree with most of them, but until the top of the ladder is fixed, everyone below is doomed to fail.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Didn't the game also pass by Scottenheimer in SD a couple of years ago? The reason everyone blasts Walter is it's been the same thing every week and he tries to spin evrything to try and support his dislike of Green. Green's coordinators were the reason for his success in Minny but now he doesn't know what he's doing,according to Walter, when hiring coordinators. BTW, Billick has done wonders with that Raven offense and may be fired. Dungy was fired and the next year the team wins the Super Bowl.It had to be his fault.

If Denny would have just kept Pete Kendall we'd be in the lead in the NFC West.The reason he benched Mccown is because,like most people who know football,is he can see that Mccown stinks. Green has tried to fix the QB situation.What was available last year? Warner was about the best that was out there. You guys act like there's a JOe Montana sitting on the street for Green to bring in.Didn't Walt and some others want to give Preston Parson a shot .

It kills me that people expect Green to have been able to turn around what may have been the least talented NFL roster in the past 30 years into a playoff team in 1 1/2 years. The only person who said the playoffs were a realistic goal was Green.That was just his confidence in his abilities.And, he was within a game of getting there last year. Instead of giving him credit for almost making the playoffs with a team that had Mccown,Shaun King, and John Navarre at the helm,and limited talent elsewhere, you guys rip him. When he gets some legitimate NFL talent, and he is doing that, he will have this team in the playoffs every year.

 

[seesred]

After one year and 8 games it is not possable to make a judgment on the overall talent he has brought in. Yes you can point to certain things. He thought Josh could do it color him wrong. He thought he take a shot with Warner color him wrong. The overall team has more upside because of Green. He didn't hurt Kenny King,Hayes, Boldin, Rolle, Brown, etc. I'm still drinking from a glass that's half full and I'm believing that Green should have 1 or2 more years to get this team right.

GBR
40

 

[Russ Smith]

Didn't the game also pass by Scottenheimer in SD a couple of years ago? The reason everyone blasts Walter is it's been the same thing every week and he tries to spin evrything to try and support his dislike of Green. Green's coordinators were the reason for his success in Minny but now he doesn't know what he's doing,according to Walter, when hiring coordinators. BTW, Billick has done wonders with that Raven offense and may be fired. Dungy was fired and the next year the team wins the Super Bowl.It had to be his fault.

I know the point you were making I'd just like to point out Tampa won the Super Bowl because of the defense Gruden inherited from Dungy not the offense Gruden built there. That has been proven ten fold since that season as Gruden is unable to turn that team around while Dungy now has an 8-0 team with the Colts. Dungy learned from his mistakes in Tampa, offense was too conservative, now it's not he's turned it over to Tom Moore.

My problem with Green and I too say it over and over, it's 24 games into his regime and while there's more talent here, he hasn't even begun to solve the basic problems he inherited that HE himself said were his priority, fixing the OL so we could run the ball. The stopping the run problem is entirely a function of the type of defensive player we have, small and fast. Tampa has found a way to make it work but it's not easy and you'll notice they don't play the slant technique which is a staple of Green's defense. To my knowledge Clancy didn't invent that, it's the defense he was hired to run.

I agree with Green, Clancy is depending too much on schemes, but I suspect it's because he feels with the current personnel(especially with all the injuries) that he can't just line up and play anybody man on man or he'll get mauled.

I'd almost give Green a pass this year due to all the mounting injuries, but even relatively healthy this team was a mess this year. Can anybody cite a single instance this year where this coaching staff made some change, personnel, scheme, strategy, anything, that fixed a problem within a game? We're terrible at gameday coaching, we can't manage the clock, we beat ourselves with penalties, and once teams adjust to what we want to do, the game is over. That's got to change, and if the problem isn't Green, then it's his assistants so THEY have to change.

I guess it'll sound bad but I'm not overly worried because at this point we're getting very close to what my fear scenario was when Green was hired, and my statement then was at least when Green is fired, he'll leave more talent on the roster for the next coach. if things keep going South, that day may come sooner than even I expected.

 

[earthsci]

Dick Vermeil with the Rams -

1997 5-11
1998 4-12 (guess the game has past him by)

 

[nidan]

Good point

 

[b8rtm8nn]

Building a team is all about chemistry and coaching. We are lacking in both, but "some" of the chemsitry has improved. Green gets another year and I'll continue to cheer. If they suck again, he gets fired, but at least we got some good players out of it.

 

[conraddobler]

I know the point you were making I'd just like to point out Tampa won the Super Bowl because of the defense Gruden inherited from Dungy not the offense Gruden built there. That has been proven ten fold since that season as Gruden is unable to turn that team around while Dungy now has an 8-0 team with the Colts. Dungy learned from his mistakes in Tampa, offense was too conservative, now it's not he's turned it over to Tom Moore.

My problem with Green and I too say it over and over, it's 24 games into his regime and while there's more talent here, he hasn't even begun to solve the basic problems he inherited that HE himself said were his priority, fixing the OL so we could run the ball. The stopping the run problem is entirely a function of the type of defensive player we have, small and fast. Tampa has found a way to make it work but it's not easy and you'll notice they don't play the slant technique which is a staple of Green's defense. To my knowledge Clancy didn't invent that, it's the defense he was hired to run.

I agree with Green, Clancy is depending too much on schemes, but I suspect it's because he feels with the current personnel(especially with all the injuries) that he can't just line up and play anybody man on man or he'll get mauled.

I'd almost give Green a pass this year due to all the mounting injuries, but even relatively healthy this team was a mess this year. Can anybody cite a single instance this year where this coaching staff made some change, personnel, scheme, strategy, anything, that fixed a problem within a game? We're terrible at gameday coaching, we can't manage the clock, we beat ourselves with penalties, and once teams adjust to what we want to do, the game is over. That's got to change, and if the problem isn't Green, then it's his assistants so THEY have to change.

I guess it'll sound bad but I'm not overly worried because at this point we're getting very close to what my fear scenario was when Green was hired, and my statement then was at least when Green is fired, he'll leave more talent on the roster for the next coach. if things keep going South, that day may come sooner than even I expected.

Of course I agree with what you just said, I know you aren't as anti-Green as I am but I have basically the same opinion of his coaching as you do.

For the sake of the team what needs to happen isn't firing Green it's basically telling him he's going to fire Lindsey or at least demote him and we are going to hire a killer O line coach.

He balks at that much I fire him in the offseason plain and simple.

I think he can turn most of this around, my opinion is that even if he does we aren't going to win a Superbowl while he's the coach here. That's one reason I don't like him.

I'm getting old and would like to see one.

He can build a team that wins and sells tickets though but at this point you need to take a couple keys to the Kingdom back from him or get rid of him. He needs to have the old Sheriff come back and tell him what's what on at least a couple things.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm getting old and would like to see one.

He can build a team that wins and sells tickets though but at this point you need to take a couple keys to the Kingdom back from him or get rid of him. He needs to have the old Sheriff come back and tell him what's what on at least a couple things.

I'll be 40 in a few weeks myself and yeah I'd like to see more than 1 playoff win in my lifetime so I agree. It's not Greens' fault for the past of this franchise but if it's fair for him to bring up the Vikings 1998 season as proof of his expertise then it's fair for me to use the Cards losing legacy against him.

He was given a lot more rope to hang himself than most Cardinal coaches get, Joe is right he wasn't given the money(excess caproom, cheap assistants) but as Walt has said before he had months to hire his OL coach and he hand picked Wylie, and then fires him a couple of months later. That tells you he did a bad job of interviewing if Wylie was so bad that he had to fire him that fast. Remember when I was complaining about the hiring of hargrave and people said so what he's not going to hurt anything, but it's an example of spending money where Green wanted to spend it instead of where it might have helped the team (get a better OC or better OL coach etc).

I'd be find with Green as GM if he hires a real coach but I have this fear he'd find some guy that has little experience and is basically a puppet instead of hiring a real qualified coach.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I'll be 40 in a few weeks myself and yeah I'd like to see more than 1 playoff win in my lifetime so I agree. It's not Greens' fault for the past of this franchise but if it's fair for him to bring up the Vikings 1998 season as proof of his expertise then it's fair for me to use the Cards losing legacy against him.

He was given a lot more rope to hang himself than most Cardinal coaches get, Joe is right he wasn't given the money(excess caproom, cheap assistants) but as Walt has said before he had months to hire his OL coach and he hand picked Wylie, and then fires him a couple of months later. That tells you he did a bad job of interviewing if Wylie was so bad that he had to fire him that fast. Remember when I was complaining about the hiring of hargrave and people said so what he's not going to hurt anything, but it's an example of spending money where Green wanted to spend it instead of where it might have helped the team (get a better OC or better OL coach etc).

I'd be find with Green as GM if he hires a real coach but I have this fear he'd find some guy that has little experience and is basically a puppet instead of hiring a real qualified coach.

Hey, if the White Sox proved anything, it was worth the wait. As for the puppet scenario, that's what's going on here in Columbus with the hockey team.The GM,Doug Maclean, has been given a free run and will only hire coaches who are "yes" men and won't stand up to him.That would be a horrible situation for the Cards.I hope the Bidwill's would never let that happen

 

[gamebird98]

"You got a winner in town" ......deja-vous all over again.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

"You got a winner in town" ......deja-vous all over again.

BIM: deja-vu

 

[Russ Smith]

Hey, if the White Sox proved anything, it was worth the wait. As for the puppet scenario, that's what's going on here in Columbus with the hockey team.The GM,Doug Maclean, has been given a free run and will only hire coaches who are "yes" men and won't stand up to him.That would be a horrible situation for the Cards.I hope the Bidwill's would never let that happen

It really depends. Given our financial state what we really need is a Billy Beane type GM, a guy who can find talent, know when to keep it, when to let it go, and field a competitive team year after year for less money. IF Green were that guy as GM you could survive with a Ken Macha type coach, a guy who everyone who follows the A's knows is only remotely connected to the A's success. He found that at this offseason when he became unemployed briefly, got no interest at all, and quickly came back to the A's.

I'm not sure it can work in football the way it does in baseball I think the coach is a lot more connected to wins and losses in football than baseball, basically all Macha has to do is make pitching changes.

My concern with Green would be so far I'm very unimpressed with his ingame coaching, so if he hired a puppet, what would get better? But if he hired someone like Grimm or some hotshot OC like Tedford I'd have no problem with Green being GM.

 

[NavyVet]

BIM: deja-vu

reverse BIM: They're both correct, although deja vous is the original spelling and deja vu is the american english bastardization

 

[TheCardFan]

It really depends. Given our financial state what we really need is a Billy Beane type GM, a guy who can find talent, know when to keep it, when to let it go, and field a competitive team year after year for less money.

I think your talking about Walt Jockety!

 

[Russ Smith]

I think your talking about Walt Jockety!

He has a bigger budget than Beane did though. But we need the football equivalent of that, unless of course the bidwills really do open up the wallets after the new stadium and start competing on even terms by offering bigger signing bonuses.

 

[john h]

People are just upset at Mitch because he hasn't liked Green from the beginning and has always voiced it loudly without fear of backlash.

Now that he seems to be the one who is right they get their panties in a bunch.

We are upset with his results and our apparent lack of much hope for next year. We are not moving forward and if not going backwards then standing still at best. Our team will not be built on the past success of Green but on what he has done while he is here. So far it does not look promising. Most of the people I have worked for want results not excuses. Just win some games that is all we want. That is the bottom line. 4-5 years to build a team does not get it. Three is pushing it. You better be showing some real improvement after year 2. If we end up with 3 or 4 wins are any of you going to be satisfied with our Coach or Ownership? Are you really comfortable that we are on the right track? Forget the personalities involved and judge the results that is what corporations do. They do not care how much money you made 5 years ago. What can you do for me TODAY?

 

[chickenhead]

I am not nearly as displeased with Green. I don't give him a free pass simply for playoff appearances with the Vikings, but I still think he has much more potential than any other coach we've had in Arizona. I'm giving him more time, not because I think a coach deserves 5 years as a formality, but because I don't see a preferable coaching change.

 

[CardinalChris]

Whoa there john. is it Clancy that cant stop the run? Or is it Clancy being handcuffed with poor personnel due to Green making bad personnel moves?

While I can agree a bunch of moves on offense have backfired on Green, what has he done to the defense personnel wise? Nothing too bad that I can think of. There simply isn't the talent there yet to dominate because key positions are lacking, particularly DT, LB, and CB.

 

[duckfallas]

So easy to throw dirt on a coach and team that is 2-6. If you can't support the team when it is 2-6, don't be coming back when they are 6-2.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Is Ron Wolf busy these days?

 

[Shane]

While I can agree a bunch of moves on offense have backfired on Green, what has he done to the defense personnel wise? Nothing too bad that I can think of. There simply isn't the talent there yet to dominate because key positions are lacking, particularly DT, LB, and CB.

Ill say lack of personel moves then.