Article on JJ's contract

[Arizona's Finest]

and yes i understand business and i know you dont make money by throwing it down the drain....but Sarver needs to realize this isnt corporate america. Taking hits at this time provides future stability and more importantly faith in yout org. So before anyone comes out and says "this is his team and he has every right...." forget that.. at least most owners try to paint it as a basketball decision but there is no one in h-ll who is going to tell me we can recover from this type of parsimoney. If you are such a magnate who is interested in making money only, then give up your seats (thats about 10 grand right there), sell the rattlers and cut some of the uglier dancers....but letting JJ go is a mistake that will haunt us for sometime....esp if Amare decides he does'nt like the way this is all going........

 

[Chaplin]

I think this is pretty funny.

NOTHING has changed between now and 2 weeks ago except that everyone on this message board seems to be overreacting. Sure, there's some confusion about what will happen, but there's still a week until we know for sure--most of this is all just positioning anyway. We don't even know what JJ is thinking, for all we know, all this could be a smokescreen. In fact, did anyone NOT expect something like this to happen? If not, I'd say they might be pretty naive.

Not offering a max contract was a smart thing to do--and we all expected JJ to probably sign an offer sheet with someone--I didn't expect Atlanta to be that team, I actually thought Cleveland would do it, but big deal. I find it very hard to believe that we'll just let him walk without anything in return, so as long as that worry isn't there, we've got some breathing room.

I just think everyone is overreacting because a) it's not even July 22nd yet, and b) most of us expected this to happen.

 

[ActingWild]

Marion is a perfect fit for this team. He doesn't need to have plays called for him, plays tough D (How many people could slow Dirk Nowitzki down as much as Shawn?), rebounds the heck out of the ball, sprints up and down the floor and does all the little intangibles. Trading him would be a mistake.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Trading Marion this year or next year would be a mistake. However, I think this is how it will play out.


Sarver bites the bullets matches or signs JJ outright the Suns have a 2 year plan for the title after that they will look at reorganizing the team by either moving Marion or Thomas etc.... In reality only Amare will likely be the closest thing to untouchable over the next 5 years.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Okay I can see the villagers have grabbed their torches and pitchforks.

JJ isn't worth the contract that he has been given. There, I said it. In his contract year, he managed to dramatically increase his shooting averages playing in an offense that caters to his abilities. I firmly believe that any decent guard will flourish in this system, just look at Jim Jackson.

When you have Amare drawing double teams and Nash breaking down the defense, shots will be open and they will be there.

If JJ thinks he deserves to be "the man", then by all means he is welcome to try. He hasn't given the slightest shred of notice that he is capable of doing so. He is nothing more than a nice third option. He won't be an All Star because he never consistently dominates a game like an All Star does.

If we match JJ, then great. We will have two third options making first option money.

If we don't match JJ, then someone else out there is going to get a great opportunity to play with a dominant big man, a great PG, and a fun system.

 

[Mulli]

Okay I can see the villagers have grabbed their torches and pitchforks.

JJ isn't worth the contract that he has been given. There, I said it. In his contract year, he managed to dramatically increase his shooting averages playing in an offense that caters to his abilities. I firmly believe that any decent guard will flourish in this system, just look at Jim Jackson.

When you have Amare drawing double teams and Nash breaking down the defense, shots will be open and they will be there.

If JJ thinks he deserves to be "the man", then by all means he is welcome to try. He hasn't given the slightest shred of notice that he is capable of doing so. He is nothing more than a nice third option. He won't be an All Star because he never consistently dominates a game like an All Star does.

If we match JJ, then great. We will have two third options making first option money.

If we don't match JJ, then someone else out there is going to get a great opportunity to play with a dominant big man, a great PG, and a fun system.

voice of reason

 

[elindholm]

Okay I can see the villagers have grabbed their torches and pitchforks.

JJ isn't worth the contract that he has been given. There, I said it. In his contract year, he managed to dramatically increase his shooting averages playing in an offense that caters to his abilities. I firmly believe that any decent guard will flourish in this system, just look at Jim Jackson.

When you have Amare drawing double teams and Nash breaking down the defense, shots will be open and they will be there.

If JJ thinks he deserves to be "the man", then by all means he is welcome to try. He hasn't given the slightest shred of notice that he is capable of doing so. He is nothing more than a nice third option. He won't be an All Star because he never consistently dominates a game like an All Star does.

If we match JJ, then great. We will have two third options making first option money.

If we don't match JJ, then someone else out there is going to get a great opportunity to play with a dominant big man, a great PG, and a fun system.

Well put!

The only catch is how to get that "someone else." The Suns are almost capped out even if they let Johnson walk, so the only way they can get talent back is in a sign-and-trade. And since Atlanta doesn't have any talent to part with, a third team would have to be involved, with that third team basically sending the Suns a good player for nothing (which is possible, if they want to shred salary).

However, if that can all be arranged, then I agree that "losing" Johnson would not be the end of the world.

 

[Bada0Bing]

Okay I can see the villagers have grabbed their torches and pitchforks.

JJ isn't worth the contract that he has been given. There, I said it. In his contract year, he managed to dramatically increase his shooting averages playing in an offense that caters to his abilities. I firmly believe that any decent guard will flourish in this system, just look at Jim Jackson.

When you have Amare drawing double teams and Nash breaking down the defense, shots will be open and they will be there.

If JJ thinks he deserves to be "the man", then by all means he is welcome to try. He hasn't given the slightest shred of notice that he is capable of doing so. He is nothing more than a nice third option. He won't be an All Star because he never consistently dominates a game like an All Star does.

If we match JJ, then great. We will have two third options making first option money.

If we don't match JJ, then someone else out there is going to get a great opportunity to play with a dominant big man, a great PG, and a fun system.

Amen brother!

I’ve been sifting through these JJ posts for a few days now and I’m stunned to see the amount of response received from Gambo’s report from his “sources”. This appears to be just typical negotiations to me, we just aren’t used to it here in Phoenix because in the past Jerry always just overpaid to get things done quickly.

Amare is the key to this team. Everyone else can eventually be replaced. The only big men that can be compared to Amare are at least 7 years older than him.

 

[devilalum]

JJ has to convince the Hawks and their fans that he really wants to be in Atlanta. Otherwise why would they make him an offer.

I remember last season after Q signed the offer sheet with the Suns he told the LA media that he would prefer to go back to the Clips and he was hoping they would match. He was just covering all the angles.

If the Suns match they'll hold a press conference and everybody'll be all smiles shaking hands posing for the camera blah, blah, blah.

 

[devilalum]

If we don't match JJ, then someone else out there is going to get a great opportunity to play with a dominant big man, a great PG, and a fun system.

I too had the thought that the Suns could pick up a couple of players and not have too much of a drop off. The thing I keep thinking is that the Suns should be able to get some kind of compensation for JJ instead of just letting him walk.

If they match they could trade him next summer or they could go to JJ's agent and propose a sign and trade. If the Suns are willing to do a sign and trade perhaps it would open the door to JJ going to a team he likes better and the Suns getting a player or two and or a pick. Just letting him walk seems like a bad business decision. Remember JJ can get more from another team if its a sign and trade.

 

[Yuma]

I'm as big a JJ fan as anyone on this board. If Sarver is cheap, or if mathematically we can't field a team with three max or near max contracts, and it came down to JJ or Amare, for me it would be bye bye JJ! To me priority one is getting Amare extended, and it will/should be a max contract.

It's too bad we signed Nash and the Matrix for so much, but what's done is done. If that squeezes JJ out, then that's the breaks. Noone is taking Marion and his $15 million a year contract from us, dream on! He's untradable at his salary. Nash is at his highest value right now. If you want to be a risky GM....

 

[sly fly]

I refuse to believe any of this BS until I start hearing word from "credible" sources.

That being said, if this is all true, and Sarver doesn't match... I will tell Sarver to go screw himself. And, he can take his chicken outfit and shove it up his arse. I'll donate my season tix to charity.

However, I don't think he would be that stupid. Or naive. At least, he better not be.

My gut feeling is that Sarver is about as compettive as me (which is off the scale). Judging by the fun he and his family had at the games last year, I don't think he wants to sit and watch an inferior product. Especially, one that was caused by his frugalness.

Like the Boivin article stated, a lot of season tix holders have already re-newed. And, they did so believing this team is "oh-so-close" to the title. Try explaining that PR nightmare.

Seeing JJ go to Sucklanta would have major ramifications for this franchise and the way it's perceived. The domino effect would officially begin, without ever reaching their potential.

This team has the makings of a dynasty. Realistically, there is a 3-5 year window. To end this possibility would be a travesty.

 

[Joe Mama]

I refuse to believe any of this BS until I start hearing word from "credible" sources.

That being said, if this is all true, and Sarver doesn't match... I will tell Sarver to go screw himself. And, he can take his chicken outfit and shove it up his arse. I'll donate my season tix to charity.

However, I don't think he would be that stupid. Or naive. At least, he better not be.

My gut feeling is that Sarver is about as compettive as me (which is off the scale). Judging by the fun he and his family had at the games last year, I don't think he wants to sit and watch an inferior product. Especially, one that was caused by his frugalness.

Like the Boivin article stated, a lot of season tix holders have already re-newed. And, they did so believing this team is "oh-so-close" to the title. Try explaining that PR nightmare.

Seeing JJ go to Sucklanta would have major ramifications for this franchise and the way it's perceived. The domino effect would officially begin, without ever reaching their potential.

This team has the makings of a dynasty. Realistically, there is a 3-5 year window. To end this possibility would be a travesty.

if they don't match the offer for JJ or pull off a very, very good sign and trade deal it would be a terrible way for Sarver to start his ownership of the Phoenix Suns. Yes, I know he spent a lot of money last summer, but a lot of people won't remember that if JJ goes to Atlanta, especially if the team struggles a little. I mean the Phoenix Suns have been claiming that they will match any offer for JJ for a few months now. They have specifically said they will match Atlanta's offer. I believe that's what they'll do.

Joe Mama

 

[Mainstreet]

It's probably already been posted, but if it hasn't, I listed a link to Gambadoro's take on JJ in print at Arizona Central.Com for 7-15-05.

Apparently Gambadoro obtained information from those close to JJ that he would actually like to play in Atlanta. It doesn't say who those people are who provided the information but it appears Gambadora is not just blowing hot air. He goes on to say that the Suns will likely match Atlanta's offer to JJ.

Anyway for what it's worth.

See:

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cheapseats/gambo/0715rant.html

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I'm as big a JJ fan as anyone on this board. If Sarver is cheap, or if mathematically we can't field a team with three max or near max contracts, and it came down to JJ or Amare, for me it would be bye bye JJ! To me priority one is getting Amare extended, and it will/should be a max contract.

It's too bad we signed Nash and the Matrix for so much, but what's done is done. If that squeezes JJ out, then that's the breaks. Noone is taking Marion and his $15 million a year contract from us, dream on! He's untradable at his salary. Nash is at his highest value right now. If you want to be a risky GM....

We could easily trade Marion.

The problem is it is unlikely we would get an equal player in return.

 

[cly2tw]

Okay I can see the villagers have grabbed their torches and pitchforks.

JJ isn't worth the contract that he has been given. There, I said it. In his contract year, he managed to dramatically increase his shooting averages playing in an offense that caters to his abilities. I firmly believe that any decent guard will flourish in this system, just look at Jim Jackson.

When you have Amare drawing double teams and Nash breaking down the defense, shots will be open and they will be there.

If JJ thinks he deserves to be "the man", then by all means he is welcome to try. He hasn't given the slightest shred of notice that he is capable of doing so. He is nothing more than a nice third option. He won't be an All Star because he never consistently dominates a game like an All Star does.

If we match JJ, then great. We will have two third options making first option money.

If we don't match JJ, then someone else out there is going to get a great opportunity to play with a dominant big man, a great PG, and a fun system.

Actually, your main point can be extended to: Any decent swingman whether SG or SF will flourish in Suns system anchored with Amare and Nash. What separates us from the Spurs is, besides defense, that we lack a second reliable option of a one-on-one scorer next to Amare, while Spurs have two such options in Manu and Parker. I claim that, despite his heroics, Nash is not a great one-on-one scorer in the traditional sense. He is simply not athletic enough for that. He got plenty open looks to fallaway jumpers in the paint but that's because he is so good at finding the open teammate that the opposing team rather gives him that shot while wearing him down physically than committing to even a little bit of help defense. In comparsion, the likes of Parker, Marbury, Billups, Wade attack the rim and get to the foul lines. Joe in one game showed glimpse of that second go-to scorer quality.

So, for us to take the next step, we preferrably need a reliable one-on-one scorer and another 'decent' swingman for our SG and SF position. If we may detach ourselves from the current lineups for a moment, the possibilities for potentially successful lineups are boundless. Say we have Amare/KT/Nash locked for the positons of C/PF/PG, any of the following combinations of SG/SF would look sufficiently good that we are guaranteed a 1st round homecourt advantage if surrounded with adequate backups:

1. JoeJ/Marion
2. Manu/Bowen
3. Hamilton/Prince
4. Pierce/Bowen
5. JoeJ/Finley
6. Pierce/Finley
7. Joe/R.Bell
8. Pierce/R. Bell

In other words, the second go-to scorer in JoeJ, Manu, Hamilton, Pierce, or even J. Richardson are interchangible. The other complementary players in Marion, Bowen, Prince, Bell, Finley etc. are more or less interchangible too, as long as they are good athlets, can play adequate defense and shoot the 3s. Our SYSTEM will make any of those combinations successful.

Unfortunately for the current Suns however, if Joe gets the max, Joe/Marion would be the most expensive such duos as the complementary swingmen rotation in our system. If we add the concern for bench to the equation, this burden weighs even heavier. Yet, if we free ourselves from the obsession of bringing back the SAME team as the only way to succeed next season, there are boundless options to solve this problem, by trading either or both of them for other fitting parts. In any case, however, we gotta retain Joe first by either matching or getting an adequate sign-and-trade. I think, with an open mind, we are in the drivers' seat and need not worry too much.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I have to say while chris sanders makes some good points, i think the logic he uses is flawed. while i feel like a lot of guards could come into this system and flourish, i think johnson is too valuable a commodity to let him go with nothing in return. While his three point shooting def. was helped by Nash, in reality he was the player with the least amount of dependence on Nash's creating. And that goes even for Amare, who has taken his considerable leap with a great deal of help from Nash. Q and esp Marion were completly reliant on the easy shots Nash got them. JJ was the one who took the pressure off Nash by handling the ball and defending the other teams premier guard. This is what you are all failing to realize. While its easy to see the worth of a Nash, Amare, and Marion in our systems success, its the understated things joe does that makes it all work. In my estimation he is second to Nash in making it all come together. In reality he makes Nash as good as he is. Its no coincidence that while Nash helped alot of people have career years, it was def. a reciprocal relationship. Amare himself is the best player that Steve could ever hope to have on the end of a pick and roll save maybe Karl Malone. And JJs shooting ability, ball handling (many have said he and lebron are the two best ball handlers at that size) and defending allowed alot of pressure to be taken off Nash. Nash played great in the Dallas series but if he had to play like that over the course of a full season all the time, he would inevitably break down.

Another important factor is Joe's age. He still 4 years away from his prime. If has a fraction of the learning curve he did in his first 4 years over the next four, he will be an exceptional player. And thats why HE does deserve the money. 6-7 ball handling, passing defending and sweet shooting 24 yr old two guards are not easy to find and i beg anyone to tell me a player not named Kobe and Tracy with being able to say all that. Im not saying hes as good as them, ( he lacks their athleticism actually, but he might be more fundamentally sound) but he doesnt have to be. WE HAVE AMARE and really JJ is the perfect complimentary player for STAT. He passes, is deferential in nature and wont cause problems. I understand his want to go somewhere and be the man, but if hes smart, he'll realize that the Suns are the best situation for him. Hopefully Sarver feels the same......

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I have to say while chris sanders makes some good points, i think the logic he uses is flawed. while i feel like a lot of guards could come into this system and flourish, i think johnson is too valuable a commodity to let him go with nothing in return. While his three point shooting def. was helped by Nash, in reality he was the player with the least amount of dependence on Nash's creating. And that goes even for Amare, who has taken his considerable leap with a great deal of help from Nash. Q and esp Marion were completly reliant on the easy shots Nash got them. JJ was the one who took the pressure off Nash by handling the ball and defending the other teams premier guard. This is what you are all failing to realize. While its easy to see the worth of a Nash, Amare, and Marion in our systems success, its the understated things joe does that makes it all work. In my estimation he is second to Nash in making it all come together. In reality he makes Nash as good as he is. Its no coincidence that while Nash helped alot of people have career years, it was def. a reciprocal relationship. Amare himself is the best player that Steve could ever hope to have on the end of a pick and roll save maybe Karl Malone. And JJs shooting ability, ball handling (many have said he and lebron are the two best ball handlers at that size) and defending allowed alot of pressure to be taken off Nash. Nash played great in the Dallas series but if he had to play like that over the course of a full season all the time, he would inevitably break down.

Another important factor is Joe's age. He still 4 years away from his prime. If has a fraction of the learning curve he did in his first 4 years over the next four, he will be an exceptional player. And thats why HE does deserve the money. 6-7 ball handling, passing defending and sweet shooting 24 yr old two guards are not easy to find and i beg anyone to tell me a player not named Kobe and Tracy with being able to say all that. Im not saying hes as good as them, ( he lacks their athleticism actually, but he might be more fundamentally sound) but he doesnt have to be. WE HAVE AMARE and really JJ is the perfect complimentary player for STAT. He passes, is deferential in nature and wont cause problems. I understand his want to go somewhere and be the man, but if hes smart, he'll realize that the Suns are the best situation for him. Hopefully Sarver feels the same......

Well JJ is fairly overvalued here right now.

The truth is, JJ is a shooting guard who averages between 16-18 points over the last two years. During that time, he has played the most minutes of any NBA player and has played on the most statistically dominating team. He has some nice numbers. 17 points. 5 rebounds. 5 assists.

His defense is alright, except when he is covering any other SG of significance like James, Ginobili, McGrady, ect...

Joe is a nice player. He has a good skill set. Nice players don't make max contracts. Look Shawn Marion is in the top 2 SF in the league and we bitch about his max contract. Nice players at the easiest position to fill in the league (sg) don't make a max contract.

If you put Raja Bell into JJ's spot and gave him JJ's minutes I am fairly sure you would see similiar numbers.

Want further proof? Jim Jackson's numbers with JJ out:

9 points, 2 rebounds, 5 assists
17 points, 8 rebounds, 1 assist
11 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists
21 points, 5 rebounds, 0 assists
16 points, 7 rebounds, 0 assists
20 points, 8 rebounds, 1 assist

shooting percentage as a starter: 50% from 2, 51% from 3. It's no coincidence these numbers are right in line with Joe Johnson's career highs in shooting percentage. This offense gets you open shots.

So what did we lose? A handful of assists. Does roughly 3 assists a game equate to a max contract? And we are talking Jim Jackson, a guy nobody wanted.

 

[Joe Mama]

Well JJ is fairly overvalued here right now.

The truth is, JJ is a shooting guard who averages between 16-18 points over the last two years. During that time, he has played the most minutes of any NBA player and has played on the most statistically dominating team. He has some nice numbers. 17 points. 5 rebounds. 5 assists.

His defense is alright, except when he is covering any other SG of significance like James, Ginobili, McGrady, ect...

Joe is a nice player. He has a good skill set. Nice players don't make max contracts. Look Shawn Marion is in the top 2 SF in the league and we bitch about his max contract. Nice players at the easiest position to fill in the league (sg) don't make a max contract.

If you put Raja Bell into JJ's spot and gave him JJ's minutes I am fairly sure you would see similiar numbers.

Want further proof? Jim Jackson's numbers with JJ out:

9 points, 2 rebounds, 5 assists
17 points, 8 rebounds, 1 assist
11 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists
21 points, 5 rebounds, 0 assists
16 points, 7 rebounds, 0 assists
20 points, 8 rebounds, 1 assist

shooting percentage as a starter: 50% from 2, 51% from 3. It's no coincidence these numbers are right in line with Joe Johnson's career highs in shooting percentage. This offense gets you open shots.

So what did we lose? A handful of assists. Does roughly 3 assists a game equate to a max contract? And we are talking Jim Jackson, a guy nobody wanted.

watch out Chris. I've been getting hammered here since the playoffs for bringing up the same point.

I want the Phoenix Suns to match an offer for JJ because I think it gives them their best shot at a championship over the next two seasons. I also fear that letting JJ go will upset Amare. However by no means do I think that JJ is worth $70 million over the next 5 seasons. I'm not even sure he will be worth $50 million over the next five seasons. I'm not sure what why happened with Michael Finley, but I think with the moves the team has already made if they substituted him for JJ they would still be better than last season.

Assuming Amare signs his extension this summer I won't be upset if the Phoenix Suns give JJ the $70 million over five years. I also won't be upset if they sign and trade him somewhere. I don't even think they have to necessarily get equal compensation. Let's face it the chances that they would get equal compensation are slim to none. It to be tough to see him simply allowed to sign with Atlanta without getting anything in return.

Harrington didn't do as well for Atlanta as I thought he would, but I would still take him in a sign and trade deal. He only has one year left on his contract. He would be nice coming off the bench at power forward or even small forward. I could probably live with Harrington and the rights to Salim Stoudamire. Unfortunately I don't think Atlanta would do it. Even if they sign someone like Curry they are going to be thin in the frontcourt. I suspect that Diaw or maybe Childress would be the only guys they would be willing to deal.

I honestly just wish something would happen. All of this waiting is killing me.

Joe Mama

 

[Cheesebeef]

wow do I think a lot of people here are denigrating JJ as if to set themselves for the inevtibale - going along with whatever the Suns do. JJ's ability to get those meager 3 assists speaks volumes to what he does for this team - which is CREATE. If you want to be a great team you better have more than two guys who are gonna create offense for you. JJ does that along with Amare and Nash.

Folks - Nash was at his absolute PEAK last year - that's why we were able to persevere without JJ - although even then, we were only .500 without him. There needs to be that 3rd guy who can create not only hi own shot but shots for others - that's what JJ does for this team. Not to mention the fact that he's young. You say you can plug just anyone in there - total B.S. IMO. Do you really think Jimmy Jackson would hold up playing JJ's type of minutes for 82 games? Even if he did - he's a jump shooter nothign more - he doesn't create for others and his defense is pretty bad. You want to say Michael Finley can step in for cheap - well - he can't even stay healthy for a full season on deep as hell teams - but sure, I bet he could somehow find the fountain of youth here. Finley was never known as a distrubtor either and his defense is pathetic now.

Bottom line - my biggest fear is that in two years 9after losing JJ and Q and basically busting up a title contending team which WILL NOT get back to that level again) we will basically be the Kevin Garnett T-Wolves. Yeah! We can 50 games a season and get the crap beat out of us in the first round because it's Amare against the world. Amare deserves better... we deserve better and JJ deserves better from those saying he's basically a dime a dozen. There's a reason that EVERYONE in the league believes JJ would be the number one FA if not for being Restricted folks.

I am praying it doesn't happen and I don't believe it will but if we lose JJ it will be an unmitigated disaster - we'll be a decent non-title contending OLD team in the present and an also ran in the future. We're so close - to bust it up now would be total stupidity.

 

[boisesuns]

Good posts Chris and Joe. I too want something to happen and would prefer JJ to stay, but it's definatly not the end of the world if he goes.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

wow do I think a lot of people here are denigrating JJ as if to set themselves for the inevtibale - going along with whatever the Suns do. JJ's ability to get those meager 3 assists speaks volumes to what he does for this team - which is CREATE. If you want to be a great team you better have more than two guys who are gonna create offense for you. JJ does that along with Amare and Nash.

Folks - Nash was at his absolute PEAK last year - that's why we were able to persevere without JJ - although even then, we were only .500 without him. There needs to be that 3rd guy who can create not only hi own shot but shots for others - that's what JJ does for this team. Not to mention the fact that he's young. You say you can plug just anyone in there - total B.S. IMO. Do you really think Jimmy Jackson would hold up playing JJ's type of minutes for 82 games? Even if he did - he's a jump shooter nothign more - he doesn't create for others and his defense is pretty bad. You want to say Michael Finley can step in for cheap - well - he can't even stay healthy for a full season on deep as hell teams - but sure, I bet he could somehow find the fountain of youth here. Finley was never known as a distrubtor either and his defense is pathetic now.

Bottom line - my biggest fear is that in two years 9after losing JJ and Q and basically busting up a title contending team which WILL NOT get back to that level again) we will basically be the Kevin Garnett T-Wolves. Yeah! We can 50 games a season and get the crap beat out of us in the first round because it's Amare against the world. Amare deserves better... we deserve better and JJ deserves better from those saying he's basically a dime a dozen. There's a reason that EVERYONE in the league believes JJ would be the number one FA if not for being Restricted folks.

I am praying it doesn't happen and I don't believe it will but if we lose JJ it will be an unmitigated disaster - we'll be a decent non-title contending OLD team in the present and an also ran in the future. We're so close - to bust it up now would be total stupidity.

We busted up the team last year when we didn't sign JJ to an extension. The sooner you come to grips with this, the more rational you will be able to judge our situation. It was a mistake but there is simply no use in crying over spilled milk.

If we sign JJ to that deal, we lose Marion. It's inevitable.

And no JJ isn't anywhere close to worth maxing. It isn't about talking him down, it is being 100% honest. I more than believe Raja Bell/Micheal Finley/Kurt Thomas make up for JJ and Q.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I also believe both Eric and I believe that Joe Johnson has only truely thrived because all pressure was removed from him.

If the team wins, it is Amare Stoudemire and Steve Nash.

If it fails it is Shawn Marion and Mike D'Antoni.

If Joe Johnson goes to Atlanta, I have no doubts he will again turn into the quintessential tease.

 

[Chaz]

I agree with your logic here Chris regarding JJ record and statistics but I think JJ is more valuable (or will be) than you give him credit for. He was an extremely important part of our offense last year. Jackson does not do for us what JJ did despite his numbers.

I just disagree with the idea that you can just plug in numbers and say anyone can take his place.

What do you expect us to do? If he signs the offer sheet the Suns have to match. They can't just let him go, and certainly not trade him for anything that Atlanta has. I am still hoping that they can reach some other contract agreement before he signs that max deal with Atlanta.

I have to say while chris sanders makes some good points, i think the logic he uses is flawed. while i feel like a lot of guards could come into this system and flourish, i think johnson is too valuable a commodity to let him go with nothing in return. While his three point shooting def. was helped by Nash, in reality he was the player with the least amount of dependence on Nash's creating. And that goes even for Amare, who has taken his considerable leap with a great deal of help from Nash. Q and esp Marion were completly reliant on the easy shots Nash got them. JJ was the one who took the pressure off Nash by handling the ball and defending the other teams premier guard. This is what you are all failing to realize. While its easy to see the worth of a Nash, Amare, and Marion in our systems success, its the understated things joe does that makes it all work. In my estimation he is second to Nash in making it all come together. In reality he makes Nash as good as he is. Its no coincidence that while Nash helped alot of people have career years, it was def. a reciprocal relationship. Amare himself is the best player that Steve could ever hope to have on the end of a pick and roll save maybe Karl Malone. And JJs shooting ability, ball handling (many have said he and lebron are the two best ball handlers at that size) and defending allowed alot of pressure to be taken off Nash. Nash played great in the Dallas series but if he had to play like that over the course of a full season all the time, he would inevitably break down.

Another important factor is Joe's age. He still 4 years away from his prime. If has a fraction of the learning curve he did in his first 4 years over the next four, he will be an exceptional player. And thats why HE does deserve the money. 6-7 ball handling, passing defending and sweet shooting 24 yr old two guards are not easy to find and i beg anyone to tell me a player not named Kobe and Tracy with being able to say all that. Im not saying hes as good as them, ( he lacks their athleticism actually, but he might be more fundamentally sound) but he doesnt have to be. WE HAVE AMARE and really JJ is the perfect complimentary player for STAT. He passes, is deferential in nature and wont cause problems. I understand his want to go somewhere and be the man, but if hes smart, he'll realize that the Suns are the best situation for him. Hopefully Sarver feels the same......

Well JJ is fairly overvalued here right now.

The truth is, JJ is a shooting guard who averages between 16-18 points over the last two years. During that time, he has played the most minutes of any NBA player and has played on the most statistically dominating team. He has some nice numbers. 17 points. 5 rebounds. 5 assists.

His defense is alright, except when he is covering any other SG of significance like James, Ginobili, McGrady, ect...

Joe is a nice player. He has a good skill set. Nice players don't make max contracts. Look Shawn Marion is in the top 2 SF in the league and we bitch about his max contract. Nice players at the easiest position to fill in the league (sg) don't make a max contract.

If you put Raja Bell into JJ's spot and gave him JJ's minutes I am fairly sure you would see similiar numbers.

Want further proof? Jim Jackson's numbers with JJ out:

9 points, 2 rebounds, 5 assists
17 points, 8 rebounds, 1 assist
11 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists
21 points, 5 rebounds, 0 assists
16 points, 7 rebounds, 0 assists
20 points, 8 rebounds, 1 assist

shooting percentage as a starter: 50% from 2, 51% from 3. It's no coincidence these numbers are right in line with Joe Johnson's career highs in shooting percentage. This offense gets you open shots.

So what did we lose? A handful of assists. Does roughly 3 assists a game equate to a max contract? And we are talking Jim Jackson, a guy nobody wanted.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

One thing people don't bring up enough is that while Marion will be a casualty in a year or two, that is actually a good thing.

Marion is 27 years old. Say he gets traded when he is 29. He will still be in his prime, but at the tail end of it. He will be looking for another big contract when he is 30, and will likely get it. Of course, his athleticism could easily take a gigantic step back by that time - making him far less effective.

If we have to trade Marion in two years, while his value is still high, we could land a couple prospects and not have to worry about losing him for nothing when his deal is up. I would not be upset at all if that happened.