Ayton's Ceiling

[sunsfan88]

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Yikes. Watching this clip below, his defense lapses are a legitimate cause for concern. That said, every single prospect has some type of cause for concern as well, you take the risks with the benefits of course

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[ColdPickleNachos]

Yikes.

Meh. It's a bad play for sure, but it's less than three minutes into the game. Seven footers have a tendency to get in foul trouble, so he may have been coached not to be too aggressive early on with plays to the rim. It's certainly an area for improvement, but with Pac 12 officials I probably would tell him to be careful early on...

Of course, this seems to be a trend with Ayton, and my excuse doesn't cover everything, but I don't think it's an area where he can't improve with good coaching.

 

[BC867]

That's missing his most polished skill. His passing is what's going to make him special.

As a good passing Small Forward to add to a good passing Point Guard and a good passing Booker, great. But we are set at Small Forward.

As a Point Guard, he is another tweener. Can he guard speedy, smaller Point Guards? Is he a facilitator in every aspect of running the Point?

Of course, this is all moot, because we are going to choose the Center of the decade (or two). And then add a solid Point Guard.

And any talk of Booker sharing the Point is folly. It detracts from his excellence as a dominant Shooting Guard. That is how he is the team leader.

I hope the Suns have lost their obsession with tweeners.

 

[JCSunsfan]

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[JCSunsfan]

Yikes. Watching this clip below, his defense lapses are a legitimate cause for concern. That said, every single prospect has some type of cause for concern as well, you take the risks with the benefits of course

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I hate these. Not enough info to get a real look. Every player gets beat some in the course of the game. Here is a question I have for Sean Miller though. Why is your 7-1 250 center with a 44 inch vertical guarding wings out beyond the three point line? Its pretty hard to protect the rim when you are rarely close to it. I guarantee you this is the first year in his life that Ayton has been trying to guard three point shooters.

Doing this is detrimental in several ways. It puts your big out of position to block shots. Guarding small players always gets a big in foul trouble, so it trains him to be less aggressive just so he can stay in the game. It also gets your big in the habit of giving players more space than he should, because he has to accommodate for a smaller player's speed.

Ayton should have been bodying big guys up in the middle all year and then switching off to help when others drive through the lane.

Put your players in a position to succeed. Don't play them out of position just because it gives you a height advantage.

One other thing. Ayton was at the center of a huge controversy, and in the end a falsely reported story that put a very bad light on him personally. He was not even involved in what he was accused of. That can be a huge distraction for both coach and player.

I would flush the Buffalo game and look at other film, especially earlier in the year.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I hate these. Not enough info to get a real look. Every player gets beat some in the course of the game. Here is a question I have for Sean Miller though. Why is your 7-1 250 center with a 44 inch vertical guarding wings out beyond the three point line? Its pretty hard to protect the rim when you are rarely close to it. I guarantee you this is the first year in his life that Ayton has been trying to guard three point shooters.

Doing this is detrimental in several ways. It puts your big out of position to block shots. Guarding small players always gets a big in foul trouble, so it trains him to be less aggressive just so he can stay in the game. It also gets your big in the habit of giving players more space than he should, because he has to accommodate for a smaller player's speed.

Ayton should have been bodying big guys up in the middle all year and then switching off to help when others drive through the lane.

Put your players in a position to succeed. Don't play them out of position just because it gives you a height advantage.

One other thing. Ayton was at the center of a huge controversy, and in the end a falsely reported story that put a very bad light on him personally. He was not even involved in what he was accused of. That can be a huge distraction for both coach and player.

I would flush the Buffalo game and look at other film, especially earlier in the year.

As someone who raises a brow at Doncic’s bad games, it’s unfair for me to flush Ayton’s worst game at the worst time.

But, I do believe Miller put him in positions that weren’t 100% condusive to helping him excel.

 

[JCSunsfan]

As someone who raises a brow at Doncic’s bad games, it’s unfair for me to flush Ayton’s worst game at the worst time.

But, I do believe Miller put him in positions that weren’t 100% condusive to helping him excel.

Doncic was not the subject of a recruiting scandal, or any kind of scandal, ever. In 35 college games Ayton only had two games he was not in double figures scoring (both 9 pts). Also, none of us have really seen any critical footage of Doncic. Has anyone seen a montage of his defense? Even with all the hype on Doncic, our arguments both for and against him, are based on very little real knowledge of his weaknesses.

I still like the guy, but not for #1.

 

[rocker]

Doncic was not the subject of a recruiting scandal, or any kind of scandal, ever. In 35 college games Ayton only had two games he was not in double figures scoring (both 9 pts). Also, none of us have really seen any critical footage of Doncic. Has anyone seen a montage of his defense? Even with all the hype on Doncic, our arguments both for and against him, are based on very little real knowledge of his weaknesses.

I still like the guy, but not for #1.

Here is montage of his defense. Under Kokoskov.

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[ColdPickleNachos]

Here is montage of his defense. Under Kokoskov.

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Good stuff. Thanks for posting.

I'm super high on Doncic...I'm just even higher on Ayton. I'll be following the Euroleague Final 4 closely for sure, and I'm still open to being blown away.

If things go as expected, I will be very intrigued watching Doncic and Bogdan play together on the Kings.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Here is montage of his defense. Under Kokoskov.

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Thank you for that. Looks to me like he works hard. He has some physical limitations. Sort of reminds me of a young Jared Dudley on defense which is not a bad thing.

 

[GatorAZ]

As someone who raises a brow at Doncic’s bad games, it’s unfair for me to flush Ayton’s worst game at the worst time.

But, I do believe Miller put him in positions that weren’t 100% condusive to helping him excel.

Why is your 7ft center on the perimeter with no help?

 

[Phrazbit]

Why is your 7ft center on the perimeter with no help?

Because they were stupidly committed to playing Ristic and Ayton together... and Ristic was waaaaaay to slow to play out there.

 

[TJ]

Meh. It's a bad play for sure, but it's less than three minutes into the game. Seven footers have a tendency to get in foul trouble, so he may have been coached not to be too aggressive early on with plays to the rim. It's certainly an area for improvement, but with Pac 12 officials I probably would tell him to be careful early on...

Of course, this seems to be a trend with Ayton, and my excuse doesn't cover everything, but I don't think it's an area where he can't improve with good coaching.

Ayton was guarding a shooting guard throughout most of that game. I highly doubt he's going to do that in the NBA. He's going to play the 5 and stay at or near the rim most of the time.

There were some switches he should've made in that Buffalo clip, but that game was a complete dumpster fire for everyone on Arizona.

 

[TJ]

Why is your 7ft center on the perimeter with no help?

Because Rawle, PJC, and Trier couldn't guard a toddler on the perimeter?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Why is your 7ft center on the perimeter with no help?

don't ask me. I've always thought Miller was incredibly overrated as a coach. Great recruiter, but not much else.

 

[Mr. Boldin]

I thought Ayton did a pretty good job all year hard hedging those side ball screens, and even switching (the few times Miller actually did so) ball screens onto guards.

Ayton's problem is he isnt a natural rim protector. Now is that an ability issue, a wont issue, or a doesnt know how issue? It certainly isnt ability. The two after are a toss up. He had little interest making some simple help-side rotations all season, especially at the rim. Is he not able to recognize and diagnose, or was he just not willing to do so? Thats what any team needs to figure out, because if he starts protecting the rim, hes all-nba caliber.

 

[AZ Native]

don't ask me. I've always thought Miller was incredibly overrated as a coach. Great recruiter, but not much else.

I say that as an ASU guy and I get blasted. It's cool to see someone look at something objectively, even though we all know where is heart lies. As far as his recruiting, he is innocent until proven guilty.

 

[HeHasRosen]

I say that as an ASU guy and I get blasted. It's cool to see someone look at something objectively, even though we all know where is heart lies. As far as his recruiting, he is innocent until proven guilty.

I actually like both asu and uofa believe it or not. Born in phx lived in tucson for longer. I agree i am not a big miller fan. As a recruiter one of the best but i think as a bball coach he is highly overrated. I watched every single game Ayton played in. Some in person most on tv. He improved greatly from the red and blue game untill the tourney. He can be a good rim protector. He flashed it many times with some crazy blocks coming weak side. Hes just raw and still learning how to patrol the paint better. Hes very eager and a hard worker. NBA coaching will help him reach his full potential. Hes got all the skills they just have to be honed. Also he was actually a soccer player first before he picked up basketball.

Side note - most probably know this but he and bagley were teammates in hs in phx

 

[Cheesebeef]

I say that as an ASU guy and I get blasted. It's cool to see someone look at something objectively, even though we all know where is heart lies. As far as his recruiting, he is innocent until proven guilty.

Don’t feel too bad. I say it as a Zona fan and I get blasted too!

 

[GatorAZ]

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[Hoop Head]

What sort of PF would compliment Ayton's game the most? Not necessarily someone on the roster now but across the league. They don't need to be available this summer either, I'm just trying to figure out what sort of skills would be best for someone who plays in the frontcourt with him. I've seen more mention of starting Bender at PF with Ayton at Center than Chriss at PF because Bender can stretch the floor better and help with spacing.

Apparently Ayton isn't much a rim protector now but he was played as a PF defensively at UofA because they had another Center down low. Ayton was more athletic so he wasn't stuck in the paint defensively. Everyone has said he has the tools to be a solid rim protector in the future if he focuses on developing that skill but time will tell. What should we expect from him in his rookie year though? What sort of rim protector would you say he was now, would he be comparable to Len? Getting a few blocks but not really standing out, just adequate. Or would he be more like Chandler? Being long and able to get good positioning so he doesn't leave his feet a lot but he holds his own well to keep opponents from starting a layup line.

What sort of rebounder is Ayton? Can he be the primary rebounder for us on the defensive glass? Could we get away with playing an undersized PF with him? Will he be able to cover for a weak rebounder at PF?


Also what sort of PF would be bad to pair with him and why? Any examples would be helpful. Could he play with a guy like Kenneth Faried, who plays inside offensively and crashes the glass also. He only has range to about 14-15 feet though offensively.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

What sort of PF would compliment Ayton's game the most? Not necessarily someone on the roster now but across the league. They don't need to be available this summer either, I'm just trying to figure out what sort of skills would be best for someone who plays in the frontcourt with him. I've seen more mention of starting Bender at PF with Ayton at Center than Chriss at PF because Bender can stretch the floor better and help with spacing.

Apparently Ayton isn't much a rim protector now but he was played as a PF defensively at UofA because they had another Center down low. Ayton was more athletic so he wasn't stuck in the paint defensively. Everyone has said he has the tools to be a solid rim protector in the future if he focuses on developing that skill but time will tell. What should we expect from him in his rookie year though? What sort of rim protector would you say he was now, would he be comparable to Len? Getting a few blocks but not really standing out, just adequate. Or would he be more like Chandler? Being long and able to get good positioning so he doesn't leave his feet a lot but he holds his own well to keep opponents from starting a layup line.

What sort of rebounder is Ayton? Can he be the primary rebounder for us on the defensive glass? Could we get away with playing an undersized PF with him? Will he be able to cover for a weak rebounder at PF?


Also what sort of PF would be bad to pair with him and why? Any examples would be helpful. Could he play with a guy like Kenneth Faried, who plays inside offensively and crashes the glass also. He only has range to about 14-15 feet though offensively.

Offensively our current PFs compliment him well because they space the floor. Defensively Criss is probably the only one on the roster that compliments him because he contests a lot of shots.

 

[taz02]

I think we are going to be pleasantly surprised with Aytons shot blocking ability. it will take some time, coaching and playing in position near the basket.

Bender, in theory would be an excellent compliment. Maybe Igor can figure him out. We probably shouldn't hold our breath and if a better opportunity comes along snag it of course.

 

[HeHasRosen]

What sort of PF would compliment Ayton's game the most? Not necessarily someone on the roster now but across the league. They don't need to be available this summer either, I'm just trying to figure out what sort of skills would be best for someone who plays in the frontcourt with him. I've seen more mention of starting Bender at PF with Ayton at Center than Chriss at PF because Bender can stretch the floor better and help with spacing.

Apparently Ayton isn't much a rim protector now but he was played as a PF defensively at UofA because they had another Center down low. Ayton was more athletic so he wasn't stuck in the paint defensively. Everyone has said he has the tools to be a solid rim protector in the future if he focuses on developing that skill but time will tell. What should we expect from him in his rookie year though? What sort of rim protector would you say he was now, would he be comparable to Len? Getting a few blocks but not really standing out, just adequate. Or would he be more like Chandler? Being long and able to get good positioning so he doesn't leave his feet a lot but he holds his own well to keep opponents from starting a layup line.

What sort of rebounder is Ayton? Can he be the primary rebounder for us on the defensive glass? Could we get away with playing an undersized PF with him? Will he be able to cover for a weak rebounder at PF?


Also what sort of PF would be bad to pair with him and why? Any examples would be helpful. Could he play with a guy like Kenneth Faried, who plays inside offensively and crashes the glass also. He only has range to about 14-15 feet though offensively.

I think him playing primarily pf took away from Ayton being a true rim protector. He had 66 blocks which isnt great but most came when Ristic was not in the game. And the ones he did block..swatted em. he sent them into the 5th row. I think positioning is what he needs to work on.

Now when it comes to rebounding? This is where Ayton shines. He is a monster on the boards. Offensive and defensive. He has great timing and anticipation, which lead to him just snatching it away from guys that had him blocked out. He will dominate the glass in the NBA. He was 6th in the country.

Its hard to say what kind of player to pair him with though. I would say a good defender like a draymond. A guy thats kind of interchangable with him that would allow him to float around down low and also give him space on offense. Ayton has a smooth looking jumper that he can hit from anywhere on the court. He must get bigger and learn how to use his strength and length inside tho for sure

 

[GatorAZ]

I think him playing primarily pf took away from Ayton being a true rim protector. He had 66 blocks which isnt great but most came when Ristic was not in the game. And the ones he did block..swatted em. he sent them into the 5th row. I think positioning is what he needs to work on.

Now when it comes to rebounding? This is where Ayton shines. He is a monster on the boards. Offensive and defensive. He has great timing and anticipation, which lead to him just snatching it away from guys that had him blocked out. He will dominate the glass in the NBA. He was 6th in the country.

Its hard to say what kind of player to pair him with though. I would say a good defender like a draymond. A guy thats kind of interchangable with him that would allow him to float around down low and also give him space on offense. Ayton has a smooth looking jumper that he can hit from anywhere on the court. He must get bigger and learn how to use his strength and length inside tho for sure

He is aggressive on the boards which is why I don’t buy too much into motor concerns. I think his motor on defense is mostly due to confusion. I hope they keep Chandler around to at least mentor him for a year.