Backcourt 2005

[Joe Mama]

Eric,

You are sure about that? I haven't read the CBA lately, but I was always under the impression that your salary-cap for free agency purposes was figured at the beginning of free agency. This topic comes up every summer on some Internet chat or article by an NBA analyst, and the answer always is that it is better to be slightly over the salary-cap heading into free agency than just under it. The reason being that a team that is just under the salary-cap cannot use the mid-level exception. But now you are saying that the salary-cap is figured when the team actually wants to use the mid-level exception and not ask some preordained time at the beginning of the summer's free agency.

Are you sure that is correct?

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

No, I'm not sure. I'm "pretty" sure, but I could be wrong.

 

[slinslin]

A team may lose their exceptions (Disabled Player, $1 Million, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player), or never receive them to begin with. This happens when their team salary is so low that when the exceptions are added to the team salary, the sum is still below the salary cap. If the team salary is below this level when the exception arises, then teams don't get the exception. If the team salary ever drops below this level during the year, then any exceptions they still have are lost.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#18

Ok too bad, kinda destroys my plan of resigning McDyess unless he takes the veteran minimum for next year.

We could still go for Kobe, sign Dampier to like 6yrs/40M$ starting at 5M$ and sign Vujanic for 2M$.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by slinslin
A team may lose their exceptions (Disabled Player, $1 Million, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player), or never receive them to begin with. This happens when their team salary is so low that when the exceptions are added to the team salary, the sum is still below the salary cap. If the team salary is below this level when the exception arises, then teams don't get the exception. If the team salary ever drops below this level during the year, then any exceptions they still have are lost.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#18

Ok too bad, kinda destroys my plan of resigning McDyess unless he takes the veteran minimum for next year.

We could still go for Kobe, sign Dampier to like 6yrs/40M$ starting at 5M$ and sign Vujanic for 2M$.

Wait a second. Ask about $22 million per year in team salary. The Phoenix Suns aren't and won't be even close to that far under the salary cap this summer.

Joe Mama

 

[slinslin]

Kobe 12M$
Dampier 5M$
Vujanic 1-2M$

That is 18-19M$ under the cap which is roughly what the Suns should have.

In fact , the Suns minus Jahidi White have almost exactly 28M$ comitted next season.
Insider reported that the Salary Cap should be between 46-47M$ -> Suns would have 18-19M$ capspace.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by slinslin
Kobe 12M$
Dampier 5M$
Vujanic 1-2M$

That is 18-19M$ under the cap which is roughly what the Suns should have.

In fact , the Suns minus Jahidi White have almost exactly 28M$ comitted next season.
Insider reported that the Salary Cap should be between 46-47M$ -> Suns would have 18-19M$ capspace.

Kobe Bryant will be eligible for something like $15 million per season starting. Like I just wrote in another post, I don't think he is going to take $3 million less per season if it is available. You are also forgetting about the Phoenix Suns first-round draft pick. Unless that is that you are still counting on a going to Orlando to get Tracy McGrady.

Joe Mama

 

[slinslin]

Does anyone actually know how a 6yr 100M$ contract would look like?

I think

1st year 12M$
+15% increase
2nd year 13.8M$
+15% increase
3rd year 15.9M$
+15% increase
4th year 18.25M$
+15% increase
5th year 21M$
+15%increase
6th year 24.1M$

Total 6yrs/105M$

So 12M$ is a little bit higher than what his starting salary would be.

 

[slinslin]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Kobe Bryant will be eligible for something like $15 million per season starting. Like I just wrote in another post, I don't think he is going to take $3 million less per season if it is available. You are also forgetting about the Phoenix Suns first-round draft pick. Unless that is that you are still counting on a going to Orlando to get Tracy McGrady.

Joe Mama

Yes I was counting on that otherwise we could definately get rid off Eisley immediately using that pick someway.

Eisley and that pick to Bobcats most likely would be possible and open up about 10M$ additional capspace to what we would already have with White going ot the Bobcats in the expansion draft.

Kobe Bryant starting salary like I explained about should be slighty under 12M$ unless I am wrong about something in my calculation.
If Kobe stays with the Lakers he could get a starting salary starting at ~14M$ I believe.

So If Kobe comes here it either won't be more than 12M$ or it will be in a sign and trade scenario where we would get rid of a salary as well.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by slinslin
Yes I was counting on that otherwise we could definately get rid off Eisley immediately using that pick someway.

Eisley and that pick to Bobcats most likely would be possible and open up about 10M$ additional capspace to what we would already have with White going ot the Bobcats in the expansion draft.

Kobe Bryant starting salary like I explained about should be slighty under 12M$ unless I am wrong about something in my calculation.
If Kobe stays with the Lakers he could get a starting salary starting at ~14M$ I believe.

So If Kobe comes here it either won't be more than 12M$ or it will be in a sign and trade scenario where we would get rid of a salary as well.

I thought Kobe Bryant's veteran status meant that he could sign for 33% of the salary cap. That would be just a little over $15 million per season.

Joe Mama

 

[slinslin]

A 15M$+ starting salary even without a yearly increase would mean a 6yr/90+M$ contract.

If he signs for a starting salary of 12M$ the total salary of the deal would be 6yrs/105M$ at the maximum 15% increase per season.
And 6yrs/100M$ is what the media reports as the maximum deal for Kobe.

So the most efficient way to sign him would be to give him that roughly under 12M$ with a maximum increase per season rather than sign him at 15M$ starting if that is even possible and give him only a 7% increase per season or so.

 

[slinslin]

It would also be nice to know what Vujanic will command.

I heard somewhere his buyout clause is 800.000 , -300.000 that the Suns can contribute and his total contract is like 3yrs/3M$ or something.

So maybe a contract similiar to Lampe starting at 1M$ would be enough already.

The bottom line however is that the Suns even if Kobe has a starting salary of 14M$ or so could still offer 4-5M$ to another FA. If that is less than the salary cap they could probably inquire about Charlotte or Utah taking Casey Jacobsen who will be in the last year of his contract with team option for free.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by slinslin
It would also be nice to know what Vujanic will command.

I heard somewhere his buyout clause is 800.000 , -300.000 that the Suns can contribute and his total contract is like 3yrs/3M$ or something.

So maybe a contract similiar to Lampe starting at 1M$ would be enough already.

It is my understanding that there is no significant buyout involved. The main issues is that he is currently making $2 million a year in Italy.

The bottom line however is that the Suns even if Kobe has a starting salary of 14M$ or so could still offer 4-5M$ to another FA. If that is less than the salary cap they could probably inquire about Charlotte or Utah taking Casey Jacobsen who will be in the last year of his contract with team option for free.

I feel like I've missed something here.

Right now the Suns have salary committments for next season, one draft pick and Vujanic.

33.885 million - committed
1.995 million - #6 pick
2.000 million - Vujanic (he is treated as an FA for cap purposes)
-----------------
37.88 million salaries

Assuming the cap is $45 million, this leaves $7.12 million.

If they move Eisley, this would leave $13.495 million
If they move White, this would leave $13.005 million

BTW, if the Suns had retained the Knicks pick, these numbers would have been reduced by roughly $1 million to about $12 million.

Without a trade, the most the Suns could offer starts at $13 million unless they can clear more cap space. Dumping Jacobsen would clear about $1 million more.

At this point the mid cap would NOT be available, so all other signings would be for minimum contracts.

If the projections of where the salary cap will be are wrong, the Suns could be out of luck. Everyone insists that it will be at $45 million or so, but if it stays at below $44 million, it becomes that much harder to clear enough space. The only other ways to clear enough space is to not sign Vujanic and/or give away this year's pick.

Most critics of the Kobe deal are convinced that it will take more front money than than $13 million to do the deal. Some supporters of the deal argue that Kobe will be willing to blow off an already guarenteed $14.6 million next year and sign for $12 million.

The process of getting rid of White or Eisley could be messy. Unless the Bobcats cooperate, the Suns may not have what it takes to move either guy. If the Jazz could hold up the Suns for two firsts and a second just to save some luxury tax, how much are teams going to charge to make is possible for the Suns to go after Kobe? Why help the Suns at all?

To make matters worse, Atlanta is the only team in the East with any uncommitted cap space. All the teams with cap space in the West would be crazy to help the Suns unless they got A LOT.

I'm paranoid enough to ask the question, "can a team bribe the Bobcats to NOT take a Suns player"?

 

[elindholm]

My guess is that if letting Vujanic go was the price to get Bryant, the Suns would probably grit their teeth and do it.

(Sarcasm off.)

Vujanic isn't an issue. The Suns won't pay him any attention if they think Bryant is a possibility.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
My guess is that if letting Vujanic go was the price to get Bryant, the Suns would probably grit their teeth and do it.

(Sarcasm off.)

Vujanic isn't an issue. The Suns won't pay him any attention if they think Bryant is a possibility.

Of course after moving Eisley and not signing Vujanic, Barbosa gets to play all the PG minutes himself.

Obviously Vujanic can be left in Europe for another year. The issue of the draft pick is more of a problem, because it has to be used before the Suns can even negotiate with Kobe.

Bribing the Bobcats is an even greater problem. If the Suns have to give up their lottery pick to move White (a real possibility), then they could end up with no draft pick and cap space they are not able to use.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Of course after moving Eisley and not signing Vujanic, Barbosa gets to play all the PG minutes himself.

Uh, no. I think you'd see Joe Johnson at PG most of the time (or Kobe at Point and JJ at SG).

 

[Evil Ash]

Originally posted by devilalum
Does anybody know if there's anything in the CBA that would prevent a team from writing a clause into a contract.

If you are found guilty of a felony this contract becomes null and void. And would this effect the cap in any way?

This would enable the Suns to take a much smaller risk by signing Kobe to a contract even if the trial isn't finished.

No need! Its already written into the CBA that all players have a stipulation that says if a player is convicted of a felony, the contract is null and void. There also wouldn't be a cap hit either.

If he was found guilty, it was like the whole contract signing never happened.

 

[slinslin]

George it has been reported by many sources by now that the cap will be between 46 and 47M$.

Not 45 and much less 44.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by slinslin
George it has been reported by many sources by now that the cap will be between 46 and 47M$.

Not 45 and much less 44.

It has also been reported that there would be no luxury tax this year, yet the Colangelos gave up two first to get below the line. Until the level is set, it is all speculation.

The reason it is relevant is that the Suns have to push hard to clear enough cap space. Denver does not. BTW, it is no sure thing that the Clips could clear enough cap space either.

 

[sunsfn]

George said,
----------------------------------------------------
If the projections of where the salary cap will be are wrong, the Suns could be out of luck.

(((Everyone insists that it will be at $45 million or so,)))

but if it stays at below $44 million, it becomes that much harder to clear enough space. The only other ways to clear enough space is to not sign Vujanic and/or give away this year's pick.
------------------------------------------

Then he said,
--------------------------------------
It has also been reported that there would be no luxury tax this year
-------------------------------------------------------

George, what I have read on the internet is that there is going to be a tax this year. I have not read any place that there will not be a tax. There may not be a tax in the next year, but this year there is going to be one.

The suns are working hard to get under the tax which also is a good indication there will be one.

Do you have a link where you read this?

 

[elindholm]

Of course after moving Eisley and not signing Vujanic, Barbosa gets to play all the PG minutes himself.

Haven't you agreed in the past, time and time again, that moving White is much more likely? Please stick to one story.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
Of course after moving Eisley and not signing Vujanic, Barbosa gets to play all the PG minutes himself.

Haven't you agreed in the past, time and time again, that moving White is much more likely? Please stick to one story.

Options. They are called options.

The point about Eisley had a smily face. It was a joke. Gimme a break.

Somehow these responses never seem to address the issue that if the Suns give up a draft pick to clear White and do not get Kobe, it would be much the same as the Googs deal. Unfortunately, it might require giving up this year's lottery pick before even starting to negotiate with Kobe.

If the Bobcats take White wihout having to give up a pick, then the risk is not a big deal. It's not impossible that the Bobcats would like to have White, espcially if plays like he did against Memphis. But after watching how the Colangelos got screwed by Utah because the Jazz were the only team able to help the Suns clear Googs, I am not optomistic.

 

[devilalum]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Options. They are called options.

The point about Eisley had a smily face. It was a joke. Gimme a break.

Somehow these responses never seem to address the issue that if the Suns give up a draft pick to clear White and do not get Kobe, it would be much the same as the Googs deal. Unfortunately, it might require giving up this year's lottery pick before even starting to negotiate with Kobe.

If the Bobcats take White wihout having to give up a pick, then the risk is not a big deal. It's not impossible that the Bobcats would like to have White, espcially if plays like he did against Memphis. But after watching how the Colangelos got screwed by Utah because the Jazz were the only team able to help the Suns clear Googs, I am not optomistic.

That is why in a different thread I said the SUns would have to give up the lottery pick to dump Eisley. If the Suns get Kboe ( big if) then I would prefer to keep White.

White is a CENTER and his contract expires next summer making him a valuable commodity.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by devilalum
That is why in a different thread I said the SUns would have to give up the lottery pick to dump Eisley. If the Suns get Kboe ( big if) then I would prefer to keep White.

White is a CENTER and his contract expires next summer making him a valuable commodity.

Unless the Suns get #1 or #2, moving Eisley with the pick may be the "least bad" option available if the Suns are committed to go for Kobe.

It is hard to determine exactly what the deal that would have sent Malik Rose to Boston and Eisley to the Spurs was supposed to involve, but supposedly it was killed because the Suns would not give up their lottery pick. (The news reports are vague to say the least). I'm not sure the Suns will get a better deal this summer.

 

[slinslin]

If we have the #1 pick teams will be calling us because they are desperate for Emeka especially in the East.

Orlando is desperate for Emeka I think.

Even If we have #2 or #3 we could probably move Eisley and that pick to a team with capspace and a high pick or some sort of expiring contract and package that pick with Marion and Johnson for TMac.


A 1-2 pick gives us a lot options and I am much more excited about trade possibilities right now than actually use that pick.

If we have #1 and Orlando #2 or #3. We could probably trade Marion, Johnson, #1 for TMac and Orlando's pick and then use that pick to move Eisley.

The possibilities are almost endless it seems.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by slinslin
If we have the #1 pick teams will be calling us because they are desperate for Emeka especially in the East.

Orlando is desperate for Emeka I think.

Even If we have #2 or #3 we could probably move Eisley and that pick to a team with capspace and a high pick or some sort of expiring contract and package that pick with Marion and Johnson for TMac.


A 1-2 pick gives us a lot options and I am much more excited about trade possibilities right now than actually use that pick.

If we have #1 and Orlando #2 or #3. We could probably trade Marion, Johnson, #1 for TMac and Orlando's pick and then use that pick to move Eisley.

The possibilities are almost endless it seems.

The possibilities are NOT endless, but our fantasies are without bound.