Beware the 4th Win

[DVontel]

There's a middle ground.

Which describes the Saints.

 

[kerouac9]

Which describes the Saints.

Or the Packers!

The options aren't just be extremely crappy and hope for the best vs. leverage out your cap to stay relevant while giving Cam Jordan an extention to his 40th birthday.

 

[football karma]

Just glad Monti didn’t strive to be what the Saints are & have been since 2021.

their approach is interesting

they go into every offseason some insane number over the cap --- its $87mm for 2024.

and every year they defer salary into the future to not only get under -- but to add as well.

they are tied for first in the NFC South -- the division where you are never really out of it

 

[MadCardDisease]

they are tied for first in the NFC South -- the division where you are never really out of it

But look at their wins:

2 against the Panthers
Titans
Patriots
Colts
Bears

The Saints are going nowhere fast!!!

 

[AZCB34]

I'd love for you to look James Conner in the eye and tell him that to his face.

Except not a single player not coach thinks it is ok to be a loser. The statement was and has been that the front office has constructed a roster that screams it is okay to lose.

I hate losing so I am in the BIM camp off win as many as you can and the draft will take care of itself

 

[Harry]

I don't think Carson Palmer's 60 games as an Arizona Cardinal much changes how anyone outside Arizona remembers his career. Especially when he essentially speed-ran his time with Cincy.

PFR's Career Similarities metric matches him with Drew Bledsoe, which hits right.

Here’s a sampling of some people who noticed Palmer’s time in AZ.

The LA Times said, “Palmer put up some of his best numbers during his time with the Cardinals, including his top three seasons in passing yards — 4,671 in 2015, followed by 4,274 in 2013 and 4,233 in 2016. His passer rating of 91.1 is second among players who attempted more than 20 passes for the Cardinals, and he’s fourth on the team’s all-time list for passing yards (16,782) and passing touchdowns (105).”

The Florida Times Union (Jacksonville) wrote, “Now playing for the Arizona Cardinals, his third NFL team, Palmer has put up some impressive career numbers in his career. He is seventh among active quarterbacks with 31,619 passing yards and 201 touchdown passes. He's tied for third in touchdown passes of 50 yards or more with Tom Brady and Peyton Manning at 23.”

ESPN noted, “In Arizona, Palmer doubled his number of career playoff games from two to four and had the best season in 2015, when he threw for a career-high 4,671 yards and 35 touchdowns.
Palmer will retire fourth in Cardinals history in passing yard and touchdowns. He owns the franchise records for passing yards and passing touchdowns in a season, both set in 2015.“

NFL added, “Palmer joined the Cardinals in 2013 via trade with the Oakland Raiders and posted a .642 winning percentage (38-21-1) in five seasons in Arizona, marking the best winning percentage in team history.
The signal-caller also holds the Cardinals' single-season records for passing yards (4,671), touchdowns (35) and passer rating (104.6), all of which Palmer established in 2015 en route to his third career Pro Bowl selection. Palmer also holds team records in 300-yard passing games (25) and 400-yard passing performances (three).”

SB Nation printed, “Palmer has gone 19-6 as Arizona's starter and now has his team atop the NFC West and poised for another playoff berth. He's also having one of the best starts he's ever had in his 13-year career with a 117.8 QB rating (fourth in NFL) and 91.1 passer rating (2nd in NFL). "He's pretty [expletive] good," former Bengal and current Cardinal Jermaine Gresham said of Palmer in the NFL.com story. "I think he can be even better."

Fox Sports submitted, “Carson Palmer is approaching the end of his career. The three-time Pro Bowler had quite the renaissance in Arizona, something that has become popular with that team over the years.”

Rolling Stone published, “For God’s sake, these guys – one week after hanging 39 points on the Seahawks in a win at Seattle – just shredded the Bengals’ stout defense. It’s simply the best team Arizona has had since the franchise relocated to the desert from St. Louis in 1988. The Cardinals have had a whopping three seasons with double-digit victories since then, topping out at 11 wins a year ago, when Palmer watched a hopeless playoff game against the Carolina Panthers from the sideline with a torn left ACL he’d suffered in November.”

 

[Chopper0080]

Well I 100% disagree with your statement that "It's Okay to be a Loser". That makes is sound like it's OK to go out and not put 100% effort out on the field.

And yes the Browns game was a crap fest. They got beat plain and simple.

Do you recognize that someone can put 100% effort and still lose? Because you are presenting like it is an either/or scenario.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Do you recognize that someone can put 100% effort and still lose? Because you are presenting like it is an either/or scenario.

Yes, but if your mindset is "It's okay to be a loser" then chances are you are not going to go out and give 100% effort.

 

[kerouac9]

Here’s a sampling of some people who noticed Palmer’s time in AZ.

I can't tell if you're intentionally misreading my post or just grasping at super-old, contemporary writeups. No one forgot about Carson Palmer during his time here, and he had a legit MVP-caliber season. But, as I said, it was a speedrun of his time as a Bengal -- very productive regular seasons with unfortunate injury timing that prevented the kind of success that will create a remembered legacy.

Carson Palmer is the answer to What If Matt Stafford Never Won a Super Bowl?

That's fine, but most everyone here thought that Carson Palmer's inclusion in the Cards' Ring of Honor was a head-scratcher because his time here was so short and without much accomplishment. He was still a very good player, tho.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I can't tell if you're intentionally misreading my post or just grasping at super-old, contemporary writeups. No one forgot about Carson Palmer during his time here, and he had a legit MVP-caliber season. But, as I said, it was a speedrun of his time as a Bengal -- very productive regular seasons with unfortunate injury timing that prevented the kind of success that will create a remembered legacy.

Your claim is that the 60 or so games he was here had little impact on how people viewed his career. I think Harry and others disagree with that position. I think a lot of people viewed Carson in a different light after his time with the Cards.

That's fine, but most everyone here thought that Carson Palmer's inclusion in the Cards' Ring of Honor was a head-scratcher because his time here was so short and without much accomplishment. He was still a very good player, tho.

I believe the biggest contention was the fact he skipped the line over much more deserving Cards. (Boldin/Dockett, etc)

 

[Chopper0080]

Yes, but if your mindset is "It's okay to be a loser" then chances are you are not going to go out and give 100% effort.

When you, as a GM who is putting the team together, puts together a roster that is deemed one of the worst in the NFL, your mindset is that winning games that year is not your top priority.

Coaches didn't put that roster together. Players didn't put that roster together. Coaches try to win games. Players try to stay employed. Completely different focus than the front office.

 

[kerouac9]

Your claim is that the 60 or so games he was here had little impact on how people viewed his career. I think Harry and others disagree with that position. I think a lot of people viewed Carson in a different light after his time with the Cards.

I believe the biggest contention was the fact he skipped the line over much more deserving Cards. (Boldin/Dockett, etc)

Okay. I'm sure Cardinals fans did. Obviously people were very excited about his Cardinals career when Carson Palmer was playing for the Arizona Cardinals (which is when every one of those citations Harry posted was printed).

Here's how his Wikipedia entry starts (although the image is of him as a Cardinal):

Carson Hilton Palmer (born December 27, 1979) is an American former football quarterback who played in the National Football League (NFL) for 15 seasons, primarily with the Cincinnati Bengals and Arizona Cardinals. He played college football at USC, winning the Heisman Trophy as a senior.

Here's a recent PFT article's opening:

Nothing spices up a cold news cycle like a hot take. And Carson Palmer has a scorcher.

Palmer, former quarterback of the Bengals, Raiders, and Cardinals, believes that the current Cincy starter is better than the NFL’s present standard bearer at the position, Chiefs quarterback Patrick Mahomes.

Here's how Daniel Jeremiah and the edtiors at NFL.com preface Carson Palmer:

The closest comp would probably be former Bengals, Raiders and Cardinals quarterback Carson Palmer. Both guys have all the desired traits: size, arm strength, mobility and accuracy. Palmer arrived in the NFL in 2003 with cleaner/crisper footwork, while Maye is a better overall athlete. I had the chance to see a lot of Palmer while working for the Ravens for much of his time with the Bengals. He was exceptionally talented and put together a very impressive 14-year career, earning three trips to the Pro Bowl.

 

[Chopper0080]

There is just zero argument that can be made which states Monti's primary focus for 2023 was putting together a roster to win as many football games as possible AND he accomplished that plan.

The argument that "winning is not the #1 priority" is very different than "it's ok to lose games" is silly.

 

[Cheesebeef]

There is just zero argument that can be made which states Monti's primary focus for 2023 was putting together a roster to win as many football games as possible AND he accomplished that plan.

Bingo. So, @MadCardDisease … if the plan this season was to try and win, do you believe Monty has been a spectacular failure? If not, how do you square the idea that he did all he could to win and yet we’re still one of the top 3 worst teams in the league?

The argument that "winning is not the #1 priority" is very different than "it's ok to lose games" is silly.

People are loathe to admit they’re wrong. That’s all this argument is.

 

[MadCardDisease]

There is just zero argument that can be made which states Monti's primary focus for 2023 was putting together a roster to win as many football games as possible AND he accomplished that plan.

The argument that "winning is not the #1 priority" is very different than "it's ok to lose games" is silly.

I of all people know that the Cardinals are behind the ball from a talent standpoint. It is 1000% obvious that this was a complete rebuild season even if the team never outright came and said that.

However there is a huge difference between having a shallow roster and saying, "hey don't worry, we got you, it's okay to lose, just give us 50%, that is all we ask". If they play hard and end up winning two of their remaining games I will be very happy. I'm not going to cry that they moved down 2 spots in the 2024 draft. I would much rather the team finish the season strong than purposely lose to secure the #3 overall pick.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

means nothing. every year there is hype and usually more than 1 guy. every year some guys live up to it, some guys dont, and some dude from out of nowhere blows the league away.
the tape looks good right now but its just as likely that when looking back 20 years from now Harrison will have had a pedestrian career while some dude from the 4th round is headed to Canton


in regards to the post you referenced...everybody knew winslow was a headcase

I believe facts would show that it iis literally not as likely that a fourth rounder wr goes to canton as do wr taken in the top 10 of the draft. This argument is debunked every year on ASFN.

 

[Chopper0080]

I of all people know that the Cardinals are behind the ball from a talent standpoint. It is 1000% obvious that this was a complete rebuild season even if the team never outright came and said that.

However there is a huge difference between having a shallow roster and saying, "hey don't worry, we got you, it's okay to lose, just give us 50%, that is all we ask". If they play hard and end up winning two of their remaining games I will be very happy. I'm not going to cry that they moved down 2 spots in the 2024 draft. I would much rather the team finish the season strong than purposely lose to secure the #3 overall pick.

For me, the term shallow is an indicator of depth. This roster lacks both talent and depth so I would argue that it is more than "shallow".

So again, either Monti's primary goal for 2023 was something other than winning football games in 2023 and things are going to plan OR his goal was to win football games in 2023 and he failed miserably at it.

 

[MadCardDisease]

For me, the term shallow is an indicator of depth. This roster lacks both talent and depth so I would argue that it is more than "shallow".

So again, either Monti's primary goal for 2023 was something other than winning football games in 2023 and things are going to plan OR his goal was to win football games in 2023 and he failed miserably at it.

I can tell you with certainty that his goal wasn't to lose as many games as possible and I'm 99.9% sure that he doesn't "fear winning a 4th game"

 

[Chopper0080]

I can tell you with certainty that his goal wasn't to lose as many games as possible and I'm 99.9% sure that he doesn't "fear winning a 4th game"

Again, putting yourself in a position to lose is basically the same as not trying to win from a GM perspective. It is just being phrased in a different way. Obviously nothing is guaranteed.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Again, putting yourself in a position to lose is basically the same as not trying to win from a GM perspective. It is just being phrased in a different way. Obviously nothing is guaranteed.

Yes this looks like a man trying to lose his way to the first pick in the 2024 draft:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Chopper0080]

Yes this looks like a man trying to lose his way to the first pick in the 2024 draft:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

So then you think he completely failed as a GM in 2023 because he put together a roster that is tied for 2nd worst in the NFL when he is prioritizing winning?

 

[Chopper0080]

You can't play both sides of this argument. Either he intentionally put together a roster that would be one of the worst in the NFL or he is incompetent because he thought this was the path to winning in 2023.

 

[MadCardDisease]

So then you think he completely failed as a GM in 2023 because he put together a roster that is tied for 2nd worst in the NFL when he is prioritizing winning?

Not at all. I've been through this with you already.

Monti's top priority this season was to change the culture. Next up was to figure out who to keep for 2024 moving forward.

How do you change the culture with "It's OK to Lose"? That makes no sense. It's the reason they moved on from players like Hopkins. Hopkins would gladly throw in the towel with two weeks left in a season where the playoffs were out of reach.

 

[Chopper0080]

Not at all. I've been through this with you already.

Monti's top priority this season was to change the culture. Next up was to figure out who to keep for 2024 moving forward.

How do you change the culture with "It's OK to Lose"? That makes no sense. It's the reason they moved on from players like Hopkins. Hopkins would gladly throw in the towel with two weeks left in a season where the playoffs were out of reach.

I think this is why most of us were frustrated by him putting together a bottom NFL talented roster. Because he was indicating that doing that was more important than winning games. This makes it "ok" as it is less important than actually putting together a competitive roster.

I will ask you the same question back. How is winning 3 games in 2023 changing the culture of the losing franchise Monti inherited?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

There is just zero argument that can be made which states Monti's primary focus for 2023 was putting together a roster to win as many football games as possible AND he accomplished that plan.

The argument that "winning is not the #1 priority" is very different than "it's ok to lose games" is silly.

Why did it have to be both?