Beware the 4th Win

[DVontel]

I literally explained why I thought that, but whatever.

Yea, I’ve seen it & that’s cool, but I’m allowed to say it’s still wild to think.

Outside of Jerry Rice and Randy Moss, what WRs have served as cornerstone players for memorable/legendary teams?

Torry Holt
Isaac Bruce
Cooper Kupp
Tyreek Hill
Mike Evans
Marvin Harrison Sr.
Reggie Wayne
Anquan Boldin
Jordy Nelson
Hakeem Nicks
Victor Cruz


Hell, I feel like I can keep going honestly, but these are the ones that came to my mind first.

 

[kerouac9]

Yea, I’ve seen it & that’s cool, but I’m allowed to say it’s still wild to think.

Torry Holt
Isaac Bruce
Cooper Kupp
Tyreek Hill
Mike Evans
Marvin Harrison Sr.
Reggie Wayne
Anquan Boldin
Jordy Nelson
Hakeem Nicks
Victor Cruz


Hell, I feel like I can keep going honestly, but these are the ones that came to my mind first.

JORDY NELSON AND VICTOR CRUZ LOL THIS IS UNSERIOUS

 

[DVontel]

You either need a top WR or top TE to be a serious SB contender. So, aka, a top receiving weapon.

Only team to not have either in recent memory is the team that had one of the greatest defenses of all time in Seattle.

 

[DVontel]

JORDY NELSON AND VICTOR CRUZ LOL THIS IS UNSERIOUS

Packers & Giants still winning those SBs if you replace them with JAGs? Yes or no?

(You know the answer is no)

 

[kerouac9]

Packers & Giants still winning those SBs if you replace them with JAGs? Yes or no?

(You know the answer is no)

What are we defining as JAGs? Both of those guys are JAGs.

Mike Evans only really proves my point. He didn't even make the Pro Bowl in the season the Bucs won the Super Bowl.

My point isn't that WRs are mid, my point is that the category of "top receiving weapon" encompasses maybe 20 guys? More? Enough that a lot of teams have two? Davante Adams is probably still one of the three best WRs in the game in a vacuum, but because he's surrounded with garbage he's basically a non-factor.

A Top 20 WR is a necessary but not sufficient requirement for a successful team.

 

[DVontel]

What are we defining as JAGs? Both of those guys are JAGs.

WR3s. Jordy Nelson at his peak was one of the best WRs in his game & had a career of 8.5K yards/72 TDs. My guy, my dawg, I know you’re not going to sit there & tell me that’s a JAG to you. Victor Cruz might have a bit more of a stretch, but he was also instrumental to that Giants SB run along with Hakeem Nicks. 1A/1B type stuff.

Mike Evans only really proves my point. He didn't even make the Pro Bowl in the season the Bucs won the Super Bowl.

I know you’re much smarter than this response so I’m assuming you’re doing your bait thing that works on others here, but you know it doesn’t work on me.

My point isn't that WRs are mid, my point is that the category of "top receiving weapon" encompasses maybe 20 guys? More? Enough that a lot of teams have two? Davante Adams is probably still one of the three best WRs in the game in a vacuum, but because he's surrounded with garbage he's basically a non-factor.

Probably because you still have other portions of the roster to fill out. A truly great WR/TE will elevate an already built good roster to a great one. Remember Adams with GB?

A Top 20 WR is a necessary but not sufficient requirement for a successful team.

This pretty much applies to every SB winner in the past 20 years outside of the greatest defense of all time in Seattle. If it’s not the WR, it’s having one of the greatest TEs of all time.

 

[Fitz4Ever]

GTFOH with talk like this. It may be your mindset but there's no need to slam on diehard fans like my wife and I who attend every home game and - surprise - want us to win every game.

We're there to support the coaches and players and our fellow fans who actually do want to win each game, too.

If you want them to lose in order to get better, you might as well just go away and then come back when we're winning and suddenly popular again since you don't want to support them in down seasons.

It's ironic that you have Fitz in your username since he embodies the never say die and win even if you're out of it mentality that you are bashing fans for having. SMH.

Go Cards !! Beat the Bears !!

Sorry, Im not bashing you...and I understand wanting to win if you're paying to go to every game...but its still the wrong mindset. Its just unrealistic and not conducive to getting better. I am all for winning every game...until you are eliminated. Once the playoffs are off the table, its about letting young guys show what they have and focusing on putting a better product on the field next year. That's just reality.

The more meaningless games we win after being eliminated from the playoffs just makes it that much likely we will lose again the next year. I appreciate your dedication, but aren't you tired of being terrible most years, mediocre occasionally, and good once every quarter century?

This season was a lost cause from day 1. Our QB was hurt and we had the weakest roster in the NFL. I would rather have 1 really bad year that creates a situation for us to make a big improvement than have 3 years of bottom 1/4th of the league wins and having the few good players we do have decide to bail ASAP. You think a player like McBride is gonna resign with us if we are horrible his entire contract?

 

[Fitz4Ever]

So with last year's #3 pick we weren't able to get a franchise cornerstone to turn this franchise around, but surely this year, after a second consecutive failed season, we'll get multiple franchise cornerstones.

Got it.

Are you saying that MHJ and Joe Alt are not better prospects that anyone in the top 10 last year? I am saying that without question.

We could have taken Anderson. He has been pretty darn good this year and will keep getting better. Once we decided we weren't taking him then all of our other choices would not have been Cornerstones. It was Anderson, and Stroud (who was a total surprise most didnt see coming). We didnt take either at #3...but one was available.

And I guess Im not getting your point. Are you saying we are in a better position drafting 8th than 3rd? Can you explain that please?

 

[slanidrac16]

Whether a Wr is a “cornerstone” as defined or not, every good team has a damn good receiver( or two) and a good te added to the mix makes them dangerous.
Even if a great receiver isn’t catching the ball he is affecting a defensive game plan.
We have a TE. That’s it. I’m shocked the 49ers did triple cover him. Who else was going to hurt him.

 

[Fitz4Ever]

I literally explained why I thought that, but whatever.

Outside of Jerry Rice and Randy Moss, what WRs have served as cornerstone players for memorable/legendary teams?

Some of the best WRs of the past 20 years played for pretty mid programs: Fitz, Megatron, Andre Johnson, etc.

Thats not a case against those WR's though. They still put up HOF numbers and were FOR SURE the right pick when they were drafted. No WR can win games on their own...but look at the last time we put a HOF WR (2 actually) with a good QB....Warner/Fitz/Boldin took us to the SB. Palmer/Fits took us to the playoffs multiple times.

I dont think its crazy to say that adding a legit WR1 on a rookie contract is the wrong move. It should only improve Kyler, and the only other choices that make any sense at #3 would be trading Kyler and taking a QB if you are wanting to completely start over, or taking Alt and prioritizing building a dominant O-Line...which I would be fine with as well.

The reason I say MHJ over Alt is that I think if the Cards actually think Paris Johnson is a franchise type player, then we can get a starting RT later in the draft. But I would totally be on board with Alt at #3 and taking a WR later.

 

[QuebecCard]

Are you saying that MHJ and Joe Alt are not better prospects that anyone in the top 10 last year? I am saying that without question.

We could have taken Anderson. He has been pretty darn good this year and will keep getting better. Once we decided we weren't taking him then all of our other choices would not have been Cornerstones. It was Anderson, and Stroud (who was a total surprise most didnt see coming). We didnt take either at #3...but one was available.

And I guess Im not getting your point. Are you saying we are in a better position drafting 8th than 3rd? Can you explain that please?

???

We moved back up, and a RT (possibly a LT in the future) is a CORNERSTONE.

 

[Fitz4Ever]

???

We moved back up, and a RT (possibly a LT in the future) is a CORNERSTONE.

I hope so, so far hes not been that type of player...but he is a rookie. What I meant by "cornerstone" when it comes to the #3 pick was someone who was considered a "cant miss" type of pick. Someone with very few questions who should be a really good player for a long time and possibly become great. The only person last year who fit that description was Will Anderson...who we had a chance to take. Stroud also looks that way now, but was not thought of that way during the draft.

If you're picking top 3, and you are not taking a QB, you should be taking the most "sure thing" you can get. IMO that is MHJ and Joe Alt this year. We have a chance to draft one of them assuming at least 1 QB goes before us.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I haven't read through the thought process here lately, but we're not really talking about taking Alt over Harrison are we? That would be a fireable offense. They're not in the same stratosphere when it comes to an NFL prospect.

Besides, we have a LT on the roster and a LTOF on the roster. Yet, we're going to take another LT over the best player in the draft at a position of huge need????? That's absolutely ludicrous.

 

[Fitz4Ever]

I haven't read through the thought process here lately, but we're not really talking about taking Alt over Harrison are we? That would be a fireable offense. They're not in the same stratosphere when it comes to an NFL prospect.

Besides, we have a LT on the roster and a LTOF on the roster. Yet, we're going to take another LT over the best player in the draft at a position of huge need????? That's absolutely ludicrous.

Harrison is so good I could see a scenario where Chicago takes him #1 and then trades up to get whoever is left out of Williams/Maye...or even stays put and take Jaden Daniels.

 

[Harry]

Do you not think MHJ is a cornerstone player?

Definitely

 

[kerouac9]

True, but you’re talking about the impact those guys made in a league over a decade ago, that changed pretty drastically, moving much more towards the passing game then when those guys were in their heyday.

Yeah, but I think that makes the value of a top-shelf WR lower, since they're relatively easy to find. It seems like every year there are 3-4 extremely good WRs that come out (not prospects, but players), which I think means that you can prioritize their acquisition behind the positions that I think are really difficult to find above-average players, like LT, Edge, and IDL.

Unless I was specifically trying to support a young and developing QB, I'd hesitate to spend money on a top WR at all, and focus on drafting them. This is obviously what Monti decided to do with A.J. Brown, but that seems stupid now.

Are you saying that MHJ and Joe Alt are not better prospects that anyone in the top 10 last year? I am saying that without question.

I dunno. I haven't looked into either of them that closely yet. But I don't think you can assume the quality of a draft class until it's had a chance to play out.

And I guess Im not getting your point. Are you saying we are in a better position drafting 8th than 3rd? Can you explain that please?

I'm saying that if we couldn't found foundational pieces starting with the third overall pick in 2023, why should we expect that to be the case in 2024? My bias has been toward entertaining football; the reason I complain here is not because the Cards fell short of my expectations -- I complain because they've basically met them.

The reason I say MHJ over Alt is that I think if the Cards actually think Paris Johnson is a franchise type player, then we can get a starting RT later in the draft. But I would totally be on board with Alt at #3 and taking a WR later.

I don't think that Paris Johnson is a franchise-type player at LT or RT. I don't think you take an LT above MHJ unless you feel like he's of the same quality as Joe Thomas. If you think Alt projects as, like, Laremy Tunsil, you take the exceptionally clean WR prospect.

 

[DVontel]

This is obviously what Monti decided to do with A.J. Brown, but that seems stupid now.

You positive that wasn’t Jon Robinson’s decision despite Mike Vrabel being against it?

 

[kerouac9]

You positive that wasn’t Jon Robinson’s decision despite Mike Vrabel being against it?

Could be anyone’s decision. Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.

 

[DVontel]

Could be anyone’s decision. Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.

Could be so it’s bold to assume Monti was the head-huncho behind that decision.

 

[WisconsinCard]

You positive that wasn’t Jon Robinson’s decision despite Mike Vrabel being against it?

Come on you did fall for it. You know it wasn't Monte pulling the triggers in Tennessee, but that doesn't fit the crap on Monte narrative.

 

[PACardsFan]

I honestly think we have 1 more win in us. And I don’t think it’s against the Bears. They’re a bad matchup for us. They have the 3rd best rushing offense in football & the best defense against the run. Their secondary has been below average, but with our WR room, we won’t be able to expose it. Our 1 win will probably be against the Seahawks. I can see us beating them to knock them out of the playoffs as payback for them beating us in the 2021 finale to deny us the NFC West title.

I called this one! We were never going to run on that Bears D. And we were never going to stop their running game. Easy peasy bet today. Once you’re eliminated, all that matters is the DRAFT!! Time to start dreaming of MHJ…..LFG!!!!