Bickley: JJ NO WANTY ATL...

[Treesquid PhD]

I don't take just offense into count I take the importance of the player to the team. I agree option is not the best word to use.

well I kind of remeber pretty much everyone saying how important JJ was to the team when he went down..front office, media, fans..unless I totlly missed something and they were talking about someone else.

This is crazy talk, JJ is a great player did anyone think that maybe his numbers were not as good as a "max players'" should be because of the unselfish nature of the offense last year?

I understand people want to justify in their minds why this won't hurt the team becasue we all want to believe that Sarver will do what it takes to win it all, but some of the stuff I am seeing is nuts, I even have seen posts on how Jackson, Bell or even worse Daiw is not a big drop off (that's just DE-NILE).

 

[Yuma]

fyi..

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Suns GM Bryan Colangelo will introduce a new free-agent at 1 p.m.
(Jeramie McPeek/Suns Photos) TODAY: Watch Suns Press Conference
The Phoenix Suns have scheduled a press conference for this afternoon at AWA to introduce a key free-agent signee. Click here at 1 p.m. for a live webcast of the announcement and check back for more information on the Suns' offseason moves.

I know it's SUPPOSED to be at 1PM, but how can you announce a guy officially signed if the league office hasn't approved it yet? Raja Bell signing hasn't been approved.

Neither has JJ's deal...

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Why is it playstation is the only one who agrees w/ me on this. Marion IS a falling asset. No chap, im not a "Hater"....as playstation says marions game is based on his out of this world athleticism. He is a great rebounder for his size and maybe the best in the league at his size (but that also has to do w/ playing the 4) YET....players usually lose their hops around 30 for one reason or another(see MJ, Kemp, Dr. J, Barkley, McDyess, Nique)What most of those players had to fall back on once they turned 30 was their refined basketball skill set. Something Marion does not possess. Let me ask you this. take away Marions ability to jump and what do you have???? cant shoot, cant create his own shot off the dribble, can rebound anymore, can really stay with anybody anymore. The guy is unbelievable and HE IS crazy athletic now, but that will eventually erode and then we got two more years of 15 million left.

Is any of this wrong? Does anyone think Marion will be the one player to defy father time and continue to jump out of the gym at 35? JJ is the better "playa" (thats for you chap...) and thats why as he gets older and loses a step, he still has other things he can rely on...(passing, shooting, dribbling) thats why Marion is a declining value. Hes a great player now but I hope we can agree that he is mostly an all world athlete and if we do trade him next year, it might look stupid the first year or two after but long term it is a very smart move. ONCE AGAIN I FEEL SHAWN IS AN STAR PLAYER ON BOTH THIS TEAM AND THE NBA....but w/ KT after next season, he is a luxury we wont need....This is probaly all for naught as all signs are JJ is still gone, but for next year and beyond JJ (even at 14 million) is the smarter player to keep. He is a low flawwed player in a highly flawwed league....,

I am with you too, I love marion but like I said in another post nothing is fixed on either end of the spectrum that especially includes Marion who is an Allstar solely on his althetic ability, take away his super quick spring like jump and he is an average player. And that jump will go at some point.

 

[Chaplin]

Is any of this wrong? Does anyone think Marion will be the one player to defy father time and continue to jump out of the gym at 35? JJ is the better "playa" (thats for you chap...) and thats why as he gets older and loses a step, he still has other things he can rely on...(passing, shooting, dribbling) thats why Marion is a declining value. Hes a great player now but I hope we can agree that he is mostly an all world athlete and if we do trade him next year, it might look stupid the first year or two after but long term it is a very smart move. ONCE AGAIN I FEEL SHAWN IS AN STAR PLAYER ON BOTH THIS TEAM AND THE NBA....but w/ KT after next season, he is a luxury we wont need....This is probaly all for naught as all signs are JJ is still gone, but for next year and beyond JJ (even at 14 million) is the smarter player to keep. He is a low flawwed player in a highly flawwed league....,

I can't even begin to disagree with most of this paragraph. And what does using the word "playa" have anything to do with me?

 

[Chaplin]

I am with you too, I love marion but like I said in another post nothing is fixed on either end of the spectrum that especially includes Marion who is an Allstar solely on his althetic ability, take away his super quick spring like jump and he is an average player. And that jump will go at some point.

And of course Joe Johnson is the most consistent player in the NBA, right? What short memories people have!

 

[SweetD]

well I kind of remeber pretty much everyone saying how important JJ was to the team when he went down..front office, media, fans..unless I totlly missed something and they were talking about someone else.

This is crazy talk, JJ is a great player did anyone think that maybe his numbers were not as good as a "max players'" should be because of the unselfish nature of the offense last year?

I understand people want to justify in their minds why this won't hurt the team becasue we all want to believe that Sarver will do what it takes to win it all, but some of the stuff I am seeing is nuts, I even have seen posts on how Jackson, Bell or even worse Daiw is not a big drop off (that's just DE-NILE).

Every Starter was important last year. We had no bench and no one to guard Ginobli. We lost series because Marion was a non-factor as well. JJ is a great tallent but he is not a max player. Yes he would have been great to play along Amare for years but it is JJ that wanted to find a better deal.

 

[SweetD]

I know it's SUPPOSED to be at 1PM, but how can you announce a guy officially signed if the league office hasn't approved it yet? Raja Bell signing hasn't been approved.

Neither has JJ's deal...

I am sure they will have more info then we have.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Every Starter was important last year. We had no bench and no one to guard Ginobli. We lost series because Marion was a non-factor as well. JJ is a great tallent but he is not a max player. Yes he would have been great to play along Amare for years but it is JJ that wanted to find a better deal.

the deal that JJ was signing with the Hawks was not the max he could have gotten with the Suns so it's just so pointless to argue he is not a max player when max player can vary for the same person by 20 million. The market is what it is and that's the rate for top tier 2's
semantics aside, i agree every starter was important but you can't sell me that losing JJ is in anyway going to help the Suns because he was not a great player. Sell me on attitude, flexibility, whatever, but just not talent.

 

[Lars the Red]

well I kind of remeber pretty much everyone saying how important JJ was to the team when he went down..front office, media, fans..unless I totlly missed something and they were talking about someone else.

This is crazy talk, JJ is a great player did anyone think that maybe his numbers were not as good as a "max players'" should be because of the unselfish nature of the offense last year?

I understand people want to justify in their minds why this won't hurt the team becasue we all want to believe that Sarver will do what it takes to win it all, but some of the stuff I am seeing is nuts, I even have seen posts on how Jackson, Bell or even worse Daiw is not a big drop off (that's just DE-NILE).

I think JJ was important, but there were several other factors that made it more critical. First, we were playing SA, the eventual champs, the team that has some solid parimeter guys, and a point guard that bothers Nash. Second, Q couldn't hit a shot to save his life, and if Q doesn't play well offensively, the rest of his game follows suit. Third, Shawn had hit the wall. He was tired, and frustrated by his inability to shake Bowen, and without anyone hitting from the outside, his game struggled.

JJ was important, but it was magnified by the situation.

 

[Dustbuster]

And of course Joe Johnson is the most consistent player in the NBA, right? What short memories people have!

Chaplin, unless you are referring to JJ's first few years as a rookie and sophomore, this is a completely inaccurate observation. FYI, last year if you will check the shooting percentages for every game, you will find that JJ was either #1 or #2 overall in consistency every game. Amare had more off games. Nash had many more off games. Marion had more off games. And Q - he's either hot or cold, and extremes either way. JJ was the most consistent shooter we had, and most of his shots were from at least 16 feet away. One thing that we will have a hard time replacing is JJ's ability to create the midrange jumper for himself. No one else on the team could consistently do it.

Why does this comparison have to exist between Shawn and JJ anyway? Some of you are assuming that one of the two absolutely has to go. I disagree. It would have been easier and more prudent to trade KT's contract in its last year instead of moving Shawn. Next year Eisley's salary would drop off the books, so we shouldn't have been in luxury tax territory next year either. Both Shawn and JJ are marvellously gifted players, both in unique ways. JJ is in no way the finisher or rebounder than Shawn is. He doesn't have that freakish athleticism. Shawn is in no way the shooter, ball handler, or passer that JJ is. They are apples and oranges. I think the point that some posters have accurately been trying to make is that on average players who's games are mostly based upon athleticism tend to decline faster than guys whose games are based more upon fundamentals. JJ is also over 3 years younger than Shawn. It is more than likely an accurate assumption that he would have been a factor on this team longer than what Shawn will be. What's so difficult to accept about that?

 

[Chaplin]

Dust, the ONLY year in Joe Johnson's entire career where he had any kind of consistency was last year. That's a fact.

As for your last paragraph, you're changing things around. I think Shawn could be pretty much the same through the next 4 years of his contract. Now if we signed JJ to a 6 year contract and compared him to Shawn if HE had a 6 year contract, then maybe we'll talk. I will concede that JJ at 30 will be better than Shawn at 32. And even earlier than that, the difference isn't big at all. My point isn't that Shawn Marion is better than Joe Johnson, my point is that Shawn Marion won't be worthless in 4 years.

 

[Dustbuster]

Dust, the ONLY year in Joe Johnson's entire career where he had any kind of consistency was last year. That's a fact.

As for your last paragraph, you're changing things around. I think Shawn could be pretty much the same through the next 4 years of his contract. Now if we signed JJ to a 6 year contract and compared him to Shawn if HE had a 6 year contract, then maybe we'll talk. I will concede that JJ at 30 will be better than Shawn at 32. And even earlier than that, the difference isn't big at all. My point isn't that Shawn Marion is better than Joe Johnson, my point is that Shawn Marion won't be worthless in 4 years.

What exactly am I changing around? It seems to me that argument has been who will be more of an asset to the team in the future. I said they could both be, but the law of averages dictates that JJ would be an asset longer. How is that convoluting things?

 

[Chaplin]

What exactly am I changing around? It seems to me that argument has been who will be more of an asset to the team in the future. I said they could both be, but the law of averages dictates that JJ would be an asset longer. How is that convoluting things?

No, the question is how effective will Shawn Marion be in 4 years--that's the only thing we've been addressing in this particular set of posts. You guys think he'll be broken down by the end of his contract, I disagree. Period.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Chaplin, unless you are referring to JJ's first few years as a rookie and sophomore, this is a completely inaccurate observation. FYI, last year if you will check the shooting percentages for every game, you will find that JJ was either #1 or #2 overall in consistency every game. Amare had more off games. Nash had many more off games. Marion had more off games. And Q - he's either hot or cold, and extremes either way. JJ was the most consistent shooter we had, and most of his shots were from at least 16 feet away. One thing that we will have a hard time replacing is JJ's ability to create the midrange jumper for himself. No one else on the team could consistently do it.

Why does this comparison have to exist between Shawn and JJ anyway? Some of you are assuming that one of the two absolutely has to go. I disagree. It would have been easier and more prudent to trade KT's contract in its last year instead of moving Shawn. Next year Eisley's salary would drop off the books, so we shouldn't have been in luxury tax territory next year either. Both Shawn and JJ are marvellously gifted players, both in unique ways. JJ is in no way the finisher or rebounder than Shawn is. He doesn't have that freakish athleticism. Shawn is in no way the shooter, ball handler, or passer that JJ is. They are apples and oranges. I think the point that some posters have accurately been trying to make is that on average players who's games are mostly based upon athleticism tend to decline faster than guys whose games are based more upon fundamentals. JJ is also over 3 years younger than Shawn. It is more than likely an accurate assumption that he would have been a factor on this team longer than what Shawn will be. What's so difficult to accept about that?

THANK YOU!!!! Its getting a little absurd to say that Joes biggest flaw is he is inconsistent. He was a freaking 22 year old! Is'nt it a natural progression for a guy to age and mature and understand the game as time goes by. Is it possible JJ just gets it now opposed to the previous years when he should have been in order: a college junior, a college senior, and NBA rookie, and a 2nd year player. Not everyone comes into the league and dominates ala Lebron and Amare. Some players take a little longer to get it.

Tell me Chaplin what you think Joes biggest flaw is (my only gripe is his lack of emotional fire but TD, TMAC and Pujols all seem to do ok w/o wearing their emotions on their sleeves) he could be more athletic, but then he would be lebron james (except a better shooter....) and what do you disagree with in my previous marion post? Cite it please because everything i stated is pretty much fact. I dont think any one can deny Marion over rely's on his athleticism....and i know you agree that players athleticism goes w/ age. So not trying to be confrontational, but im genuinly interested in what your side is.....

as for the "playa" reference, i just think its funny that you called playstation a hater. Give me a situation where someone doesnt agree w/ an opinion and its not appropriate to just call them a hater for any old reason. Thats the most specious reasoning there is....I am def. not a "hater". Good for Marion for getting maxed out and doing well for himself. I just would rather he was'nt cashing checks with SUNS on it when he turns 30 and his legs go out....

 

[Arizona's Finest]

i do disagree w/ dust about one of them not having to go...thats just too much money tied up to four players and Amare and Nash are going no where

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Well...

Marion's rebounding and team defense have much more to do with his basketball sense than his athletecism. Sure he will make that jaw dropping put back about once a game, but those other ten rebounds come from understanding how the ball is going to come off the rim and good positioning.

Same goes with his ability to anticipate the passing lanes.

 

[SweetD]

Well...

Marion's rebounding and team defense have much more to do with his basketball sense than his athletecism. Sure he will make that jaw dropping put back about once a game, but those other ten rebounds come from understanding how the ball is going to come off the rim and good positioning.

Same goes with his ability to anticipate the passing lanes.

Don't forget Marion can still get better.

 

[Dustbuster]

I actually think that Shawn will be perfectly effective for the life of his contract. 30 is too young for his athleticism to take a big hit. But I don't really get how this was all that being debated. If that is all your point is, however, then I concur. But I think the point was more a: Shawn vs. JJ competition. I think when Shawn is 30, and JJ is 27, JJ will definitely be more of an impact player. I think that starting this year and from here on out JJ will be more of an impact player because of having a broader skillset than Shawn. And I think that is probably where Chaplin and I will disagree. But I don't think having that opinion makes one a Shawn hater. A couple of years ago Shawn was my favorite player, and still my second favorite after JJ. I would like Amare more, but everyone fawns over him so much already I don't figure he needs my support. He is an amazing player, however.

 

[Chaplin]

Don't forget Marion can still get better.

Exactly. It's not like he's 30 RIGHT NOW.

 

[Dustbuster]

Don't forget Marion can still get better.

And JJ can't?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I actually think that Shawn will be perfectly effective for the life of his contract. 30 is too young for his athleticism to take a big hit. But I don't really get how this was all that being debated. If that is all your point is, however, then I concur. But I think the point was more a: Shawn vs. JJ competition. I think when Shawn is 30, and JJ is 27, JJ will definitely be more of an impact player. I think that starting this year and from here on out JJ will be more of an impact player because of having a broader skillset than Shawn. And I think that is probably where Chaplin and I will disagree. But I don't think having that opinion makes one a Shawn hater. A couple of years ago Shawn was my favorite player, and still my second favorite after JJ. I would like Amare more, but everyone fawns over him so much already I don't figure he needs my support. He is an amazing player, however.

I love Amare too but JJ's my guy and thats why this kills me. But your premise is mine exactly. JJ skillset does not rely on athletic ability but rather good ol fashioned fundamentals. I like Shawn too and i would love to keep em all but thats a concept not associated w/ reality

 

[Chaplin]

I actually think that Shawn will be perfectly effective for the life of his contract. 30 is too young for his athleticism to take a big hit. But I don't really get how this was all that being debated. If that is all your point is, however, then I concur. But I think the point was more a: Shawn vs. JJ competition. I think when Shawn is 30, and JJ is 27, JJ will definitely be more of an impact player. I think that starting this year and from here on out JJ will be more of an impact player because of having a broader skillset than Shawn. And I think that is probably where Chaplin and I will disagree. But I don't think having that opinion makes one a Shawn hater. A couple of years ago Shawn was my favorite player, and still my second favorite after JJ. I would like Amare more, but everyone fawns over him so much already I don't figure he needs my support. He is an amazing player, however.

Joe Johnson is a good player. No question there. He also can be a great player. But Shawn Marion is a great player right now. And will remain one for the length of his contract. He might taper off a little bit, but not enough to make a huge difference. The only grip I have is the amount of the contract, which would be a legitimate gripe I'd have with JJ's contract (if we kept him). You and Arizona's_Finest are acting like JJ is going to be this great superstar, and while I will concede it will be possible for him to be a star, that is far from a given, when taking into consideration his history.

The entire question I have been referring to is NOT whether Shawn Marion is and will always be a better player than Joe Johnson--NONE of us know that--what I have been responding to is the naive comment that Marion will be ineffective because he "relies too much on his athleticism"--which is utter bull.

 

[Ballamania]

i really like shawn marion and the energy he brings but i always wondered why he never worked on his ballhandling and creating a shot ability.IF he could create his own shot then noone could guard him, period. he would never have to rely on getting points on wide open shots or garbage type stuff. joe with shawns athleticism would be kobe bryant -ish.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Don't forget Marion can still get better.

huh? what is he going to develop into a natural shooter? Is he going to handle the ball better in like his ninth year? Will he develop a passing instinct over the summer? He is, what he is guys...and thats not a bad thing. Im all for players getting better but I dont see Marions game expanding too much. I wouldnt mind being wrong about that last sentence....

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Joe Johnson is a good player. No question there. He also can be a great player. But Shawn Marion is a great player right now. And will remain one for the length of his contract. He might taper off a little bit, but not enough to make a huge difference. The only grip I have is the amount of the contract, which would be a legitimate gripe I'd have with JJ's contract (if we kept him). You and Arizona's_Finest are acting like JJ is going to be this great superstar, and while I will concede it will be possible for him to be a star, that is far from a given, when taking into consideration his history.

The entire question I have been referring to is NOT whether Shawn Marion is and will always be a better player than Joe Johnson--NONE of us know that--what I have been responding to is the naive comment that Marion will be ineffective because he "relies too much on his athleticism"--which is utter bull.

we will agree to disagree....after 30 this guy loses all trade value in my mind