Bickley: JJ NO WANTY ATL...

[Arizona's Finest]

by the way does anyone have any updates on this whole JJ situation????????????????????????????? I cant handle this.....

 

[Lars the Red]

huh? what is he going to develop into a natural shooter? Is he going to handle the ball better in like his ninth year? Will he develop a passing instinct over the summer? He is, what he is guys...and thats not a bad thing. Im all for players getting better but I dont see Marions game expanding too much. I wouldnt mind being wrong about that last sentence....

One thing that may help him get better is playing more of his natural position, SF, and less PF. I would guess that he actually helped himself some by playing PF, even when that really wasn't his natural position, but he needs to get back to playing SF where he really has a chance to take advantage of his physical skills.

 

[CardNots]

Does anyone remember the point of this thread?

 

[Chaplin]

huh? what is he going to develop into a natural shooter? Is he going to handle the ball better in like his ninth year? Will he develop a passing instinct over the summer? He is, what he is guys...and thats not a bad thing. Im all for players getting better but I dont see Marions game expanding too much. I wouldnt mind being wrong about that last sentence....

Ask yourself this question: What if they start running plays for him?

 

[Tank]

Ask yourself this question: What if they start running plays for him?

The Suns run plays?

 

[coloradosun]

Why is it playstation is the only one who agrees w/ me on this. Marion IS a falling asset. No chap, im not a "Hater"....as playstation says marions game is based on his out of this world athleticism. He is a great rebounder for his size and maybe the best in the league at his size (but that also has to do w/ playing the 4) YET....players usually lose their hops around 30 for one reason or another(see MJ, Kemp, Dr. J, Barkley, McDyess, Nique)What most of those players had to fall back on once they turned 30 was their refined basketball skill set. Something Marion does not possess. Let me ask you this. take away Marions ability to jump and what do you have???? cant shoot, cant create his own shot off the dribble, can rebound anymore, can really stay with anybody anymore. The guy is unbelievable and HE IS crazy athletic now, but that will eventually erode and then we got two more years of 15 million left.

Is any of this wrong? Does anyone think Marion will be the one player to defy father time and continue to jump out of the gym at 35? JJ is the better "playa" (thats for you chap...) and thats why as he gets older and loses a step, he still has other things he can rely on...(passing, shooting, dribbling) thats why Marion is a declining value. Hes a great player now but I hope we can agree that he is mostly an all world athlete and if we do trade him next year, it might look stupid the first year or two after but long term it is a very smart move. ONCE AGAIN I FEEL SHAWN IS AN STAR PLAYER ON BOTH THIS TEAM AND THE NBA....but w/ KT after next season, he is a luxury we wont need....This is probaly all for naught as all signs are JJ is still gone, but for next year and beyond JJ (even at 14 million) is the smarter player to keep. He is a low flawwed player in a highly flawwed league....,

I agree as well. Marion is a great athlete who plays basketball. JJ is a great baskeball player who is athletic.

Marion would be a great wide receiver in football, a great high jumper in track and field and probably could be a very good figure skater. But the guy does not have a fluid jump shot, does not handle the ball very well. He has great reflexes but not skills.

 

[SweetD]

I agree as well. Marion is a great athlete who plays basketball. JJ is a great baskeball player who is athletic.

What!

 

[Chaplin]

I agree as well. Marion is a great athlete who plays basketball. JJ is a great baskeball player who is athletic.

Marion would be a great wide receiver in football, a great high jumper in track and field and probably could be a very good figure skater. But the guy does not have a fluid jump shot, does not handle the ball very well. He has great reflexes but not skills.

So what if he doesn't have a fluid jump shot? I thought that lame excuse was abandoned after his 2nd year. It goes in, what else do you want?

 

[Ballamania]

i guess whats trying to be said is as simple as marion doesnt have jj's skills and jj doesnt have marion's athletic ability. which is more effective and important for now and the long haul.

 

[SweetD]

i guess whats trying to be said is as simple as marion doesnt have jj's skills and jj doesnt have marion's athletic ability. which is more effective and important for now and the long haul.

I agree Marion is an All-Star JJ has had one solid year. They are both different players. But there are more good 2 guards in the league than good 3s.

 

[Chaplin]

i guess whats trying to be said is as simple as marion doesnt have jj's skills and jj doesnt have marion's athletic ability. which is more effective and important for now and the long haul.

Well, I guess it's all after the fact. Hopefully it won't take them a long time to get over the fact that we don't have Joe Johnson anymore.

 

[playstation]

So what if he doesn't have a fluid jump shot? I thought that lame excuse was abandoned after his 2nd year. It goes in, what else do you want?

no it does not. due to his release, he cannot create space for himself for a spotup jumper. if marion shoots, its a dunk, putback, open jumper setup by teammate, or running jumper setup by himself. NEVER a spotup jumper setup by himself.

This is important, because a running jumper doesn't have a high chance of going in compared to when one's feet are set. If you watch Shawn, you will know that those runners don't work very often. This also means that in crunch time its hard to count on him for anything, because 90% of the time his offense comes from what other people help create for him. If someone commits to sticking him (ala Bruce Bowen), he can't just 'score anyways', while JJ, Nash, or Amare can.

IMO, this is an important skillset to have, because when plays break down and the pressure rises during important times, creating one's own shot is a necessary asset.

 

[Evil Ash]

After reading all that all I can say is wow some people are really out there. Lets review the situation shall we

-JJ had his first consistent year last year making entirely possible that he's finally reaching his potential. Then again its just as likely that after his big pay day that he will go back into his shell becoming the scared player that he was when he got here. It really is 50/50 at this point

- Isn't it amazing how players suddenly do well in their contract year and then change back to their old selves once they get paid? Eric Dampier finally "got it" in his last year with the Warriors and it was like Marcus Camby was touched by the hand of God or something a couple of years ago because his previous season he was lucky to play half a season but during his last contract year, he managed to play almost the entire season (IIRC he missed just a few games that year). I can go on with examples like this for hours, days, heck even weeks of this phenomenon.

Its not just an NBA phenomenon either. Pick whichever of the major sports you like and I can give examples for all of them ... yet another reason I hate guaranteed contracts

- If JJ does go back into his shell and become the player he was before last year and signs a big contract, he then becomes an albatross for the team that will be tough to get rid of (see Penny Hardaway).

- JJ is NOT a max player. Spin it however the hell you want but he should not be making that level of money.

- Finally, you do not begin negotiations by offering the biggest contract you can. You start low and then negotiate from there. Its a process, the opening bid is A STARTING POINT, thats it thats all

- JJ has made it perfectly clear that he does not want to play here anymore. It doesn't matter about the reasoning. Thats not spin, thats something he told directly to Marc friggin Stein at ESPN.com

- The Suns have made it abudantly clear now and in the history that if a player does not want to be here, they will get rid of him. Barkley, Finley, Horry, etc all had there wish granted when they said they wanted out

I really wish JJ wanted to stay and at a more resonable price but its not meant to be, so we'll just have to take a wait-and-see approach to the offseason seeing what the Suns do now with all of the assets they recieved in this trade.

Thats really all we can do because crying about the spin and other circumstances revolving around this deal won't bring him back. In short, its time to move on ... SHEESH

 

[Chaplin]

no it does not. due to his release, he cannot create space for himself for a spotup jumper. if marion shoots, its a dunk, putback, open jumper setup by teammate, or running jumper setup by himself. NEVER a spotup jumper setup by himself.

This is important, because a running jumper doesn't have a high chance of going in compared to when one's feet are set. If you watch Shawn, you will know that those runners don't work very often. This also means that in crunch time its hard to count on him for anything, because 90% of the time his offense comes from what other people help create for him. If someone commits to sticking him (ala Bruce Bowen), he can't just 'score anyways', while JJ, Nash, or Amare can.

IMO, this is an important skillset to have, because when plays break down and the pressure rises during important times, creating one's own shot is a necessary asset.

Same old anti-Marion rhetoric. A little bitter about JJ leaving, aren't you guys?

 

[Ballamania]

it will probably be a continuing argument about which is better to have between the two. it just pretty much depends on the team.shawn's is dynamic in his physical ability but jj has no offensive fundamental weakness.

 

[Chaplin]

After reading all that all I can say is wow some people are really out there. Lets review the situation shall we

-JJ had his first consistent year last year making entirely possible that he's finally reaching his potential. Then again its just as likely that after his big pay day that he will go back into his shell becoming the scared player that he was when he got here. It really is 50/50 at this point

- Isn't it amazing how players suddenly do well in their contract year and then change back to their old selves once they get paid? Eric Dampier finally "got it" in his last year with the Warriors and it was like Marcus Camby was touched by the hand of God or something a couple of years ago because his previous season he was lucky to play half a season but during his last contract year, he managed to play almost the entire season (IIRC he missed just a few games that year). I can go on with examples like this for hours, days, heck even weeks with examples of this phenomenon.

Its not just an NBA phenomenon either. Pick whichever of the major sports you like and I can give examples for all of them ... yet another reason I hate guaranteed contracts

- If JJ does go back into his shell and become the player he was before last year and signs a big contract, he then becomes an albatross for the team that will be tough to get rid of (see Penny Hardaway).

- JJ is NOT a max player. Spin it however the hell you want but he should not be making that level of money.

- Finally, you do not begin negotiations by offering the biggest contract you can. You start low and then negotiate from there. Its a process, the opening bid is A STARTING POINT, thats it thats all

- JJ has made it perfectly clear that he does not want to play here anymore. It doesn't matter about the reasoning. Thats not spin, thats something he told directly to Marc friggin Stein at ESPN.com

- The Suns have mad it abudantly clear now and in the history that if a player does not want to be here, they will get rid of him. Barkley, Finley, Horry, etc all had there wish granted when they said they wanted out

I really wish JJ wanted to stay and at a more resonable price but its not meant to be, so we'll just have to take a wait-and-see approach to the offseason seeing what the Suns do now with all of the assets they recieved in this trade.

Thats really all we can do because crying about the spin and other circumstances revolving around this deal won't bring him back. In short, its time to move on ... SHEESH

The sad part is, all you said Ash makes all the sense in the world, and some people STILL don't get it!

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

One thing I wanted to comment on Ash -

Dampier is a poor comparison. Confidence was never his issue, it was lazyness.

When Joe was inconsistant he still worked very hard. That is why people think that now he has broken out he won't fall back in.

 

[Chaplin]

it will probably be a continuing argument about which is better to have between the two. it just pretty much depends on the team.shawn's is dynamic in his physical ability but jj has no offensive fundamental weakness.

Except he's not as good a rebounder as he should be at his size. And he is not a consistent enough point guard to run an offense or make the right pass.

 

[HooverDam]

Same old anti-Marion rhetoric. A little bitter about JJ leaving, aren't you guys?

Hehe, someone makes a well thought out argument and you just dismiss it out of hand as "rhetoric." JJ and Marion are both great IMHO, I'd love to have them both, though I think JJ plays a position that is easier to replace (though Marion will need to be replaced sooner because of age).

 

[Evil Ash]

One thing I wanted to comment on Ash -

Dampier is a poor comparison. Confidence was never his issue, it was lazyness.

When Joe was inconsistant he still worked very hard. That is why people think that now he has broken out he won't fall back in.

Yeah its not the greatest comparison in the world but it was recent so it would be in folk's memory.

I'm just trying to point out some players really do well when they have that extra motivation and then go back to their old selves.

 

[Chaplin]

Hehe, someone makes a well thought out argument and you just dismiss it out of hand as "rhetoric." JJ and Marion are both great IMHO, I'd love to have them both, though I think JJ plays a position that is easier to replace (though Marion will need to be replaced sooner because of age).

Please. This same stuff has been spouted on this and many other boards for 4 years now.

 

[Ballamania]

but for a 2 guard, which i feel he really is, his fundamentals lack major flaws. mentally may be a different story. he can create his own shot, effective dribbling with both hands , has mid- range and long range game and i hardly have ever seen him lose the ball or get it stolen. honestly, in my opinion, they both are important to the suns and the chemistry. it all just jelled so well(damn it man!) losing either one will hurt the team unless someone comprable is brought in. and i am sorry, jjax or finley is not jj.

 

[Chaplin]

but for a 2 guard, which i feel he really is, his fundamentals lack major flaws. mentally may be a different story. he can create his own shot, effective dribbling with both hands , has mid- range and long range game and i hardly have ever seen him lose the ball or get it stolen. honestly, in my opinion, they both are important to the suns and the chemistry. it all just jelled so well(damn it man!) losing either one will hurt the team unless someone comprable is brought in. and i am sorry, jjax or finley is not jj.

Oh, well, I hate to lose what he brings, and I was more upset about it a couple days ago, but now? Not so much. The thing about JJ is that HE CAN BE REPLACED. There's no doubt in my mind about that.

Now, can Shawn Marion be replaced? I don't think it's nearly as easy.

 

[Ballamania]

true, it would be more difficult to replace shawn because i dont think anybody at the 3 position can do the intangible things he does. there are people who could score better but the other things are hard to find in a three. his athleticism is what really sets him apart, really. if the offense leaned on him then it would be trouble but thats why he fits perfectly in the suns system, they dont need to lean on him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Barkley, Finley, Horry, etc all had there wish granted when they said they wanted out

when did finley want out? did i miss that all those years ago? i thought he wanted to stay, but for kidd he really had no hope of that.