Bidwill's cheapness, not Green, is causing this problem

[Lloydian]

Contradiction, not at all. An anomaly, yes.

From 1994 to the 2004 season teams with a 9-7 or better record, 75% of their coaching staffs were above the average coaching salary pay scale.

I don't mean to be overly doubtful, and I'm wide open to changing my mind, but those are quite specific statistics which I'm sure appeared somewhere, and I've tried to find them, but I've failed. Do you have a link for the source of that number?

And, Ed, I appreciate what you added. My position is that finding the answer for this team might involve more money for coaching (especially now that they've blown it again) in the future, but I'm not convinced that the money spent in the last few years is truly a determinant. I stand ready to be convinced otherwise.

 

[Ed Burmila]

I don't mean to be overly doubtful, and I'm wide open to changing my mind, but those are quite specific statistics which I'm sure appeared somewhere, and I've tried to find them, but I've failed. Do you have a link for the source of that number?

And, Ed, I appreciate what you added. My position is that finding the answer for this team might involve more money for coaching (especially now that they've blown it again) in the future, but I'm not convinced that the money spent in the last few years is truly a determinant. I stand ready to be convinced otherwise.

Look, it's POSSIBLE to get a great and incredibly cheap coaching staff (Bears). It's also possible to have a high-priced and lame staff (the current Redskins staff is the highest-paid in league history).

But wouldn't you love it - just ONCE - to wake up, read the news, and see that the Cardinals hired an offensive coordinator you've actually heard of? Maybe even someone with - gasp - NFL experience as an OC?

True, the last "name" guy we had was Trestman, but before that it was Fassel. And he wasn't bad, not at all.

 

[joeshmo]

I don't mean to be overly doubtful, and I'm wide open to changing my mind, but those are quite specific statistics which I'm sure appeared somewhere, and I've tried to find them, but I've failed. Do you have a link for the source of that number?

Dont have a specific link. All I can tell you is that I have my sources within the league (really the NFLPA which isnt the league) when it comes to contracts and league economics. You can either believe it or not.

 

[40yearfan]

I'm sick of you playing this game. Look, how much do you want to bet that Rowen is (OK, was) one of the 5 lowest-paid coordinators in the league? Name an amount.

Touchy, ain't ya. I just can't imagine Mike Bidwill saying "You can have any OC you want, just make sure he'll work for minimum wage". The fact that you say this with certainty like you overheard it yourself makes it even more suspect. Why do you insist on saying stuff like this if you don't know and why do you get upset when people call you on it?

So I guess now we need to clarify the bet. You are betting that Mike Bidwill said "You can have any OC you want, just make sure he'll work for minimum wage", is that correct?

 

[Ed Burmila]

Yeah, those exact words.

NO, we're betting that the OC on the Cardinals is one of the lowest-paid in the league since it is the OWNERSHIP that determines how much it pays its employees. Can you read? Here, let me quote myself:

"I'm sick of you playing this game. Look, how much do you want to bet that Rowen is (OK, was) one of the 5 lowest-paid coordinators in the league? Name an amount."

 

[Sandan]

Yes, he did. He was told "pick whatever OC you want, just make sure he'll work for minimum wage." What a shock that we ended up with a dud.

Your opinion, anything else is pure speculation

 

[earthsci]

Your opinion, anything else is pure speculation

History gives his speculation more merit. Present product even more.

 

[Sandan]

No it doesn't. Speculation is just speculation.

Also price does not indicate thew quality of the goods

 

[earthsci]

No it doesn't. Speculation is just speculation.

Also price does not indicate thew quality of the goods

Whatever nidan. I'm more than willing to give Mike Bidwill a chance but since we all know that Bill still ultimately controls the purse strings I don't think that it is a reach to think that the Cards chose the cheaper route.

As far as "price does not indicate the quality of the goods", that statement is often correct when the money is spent wisely. Once again, history shows that isn't the usually the case with the Cardinals.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I wonder why Denny who had a history of hiring proven, experienced coordinators in Minnesota when hiring from outside the organization all of a sudden decided to go the novice route in Arizona?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Arguments backing the Bidwills ring a bit hollow, considering the franchise is easily considered the worst in professional sports. I love the Cardinals, but any objective person would come to the same conclusion.

 

[jstadvl]

It's kinda like the bull#### rap the Bidwills get. It comes from the same people all of the time, year after year.
Ed, I'm not disagreeing that some things could have been done differently. I totally agree. However to say the B's are just down right cheap, is wrong, IMO.
I think they've done their best, so far, to change the image of the team,AND, piece by piece, bring in what is perceived, we need to be a contender.
I just don't think your being fair.
It's always easy to bash the ownership of any franchise. However, ever since the Wadsworth deal, which junior stunk up to high heaven, I honestly believe the Bidwills have done their best to try to put a winning team on the field and keep the center of the team together.
Sorrry, I think we used to be a laughing stock, now, I don't think anyone takes us lightly, except that, the head coach has lost this team and others can sense it.
Calll me a homer, but I honestly think alot of the weight of our failure this season is on Green.

 

[Ed Burmila]

I honestly believe the Bidwills have done their best to try to put a winning team on the field and keep the center of the team together.
Sorrry, I think we used to be a laughing stock, now, I don't think anyone takes us lightly, except that, the head coach has lost this team and others can sense it.
Calll me a homer, but I honestly think alot of the weight of our failure this season is on Green.

Wait, so another coach with this same roster would have us in the playoff hunt right now??? Have you seen this offense try to run the ball this year? I'm sorry, but Vince Lombardi, Bill Belicheck, and the Lord Himself couldn't coach this team to a winning record with Ross, Davis, Liewenski, Lecky, and Milford Brown up front.

They may be trying their best (the Bidwills) but that doesn't mean they're doing the right things. The entire assistant coaching budget is less than $2 million. Think about what a drop in the bucket that is compared to TV revenues and the huge salaries the players make. Would it kill them to say "Let's try adding another million on to that and see if we can't attract some coaches who aren't bums off the street"??

This offseason will give us a better idea of how much Billy B has "changed". You can't preach caution and financial responsibility when the team loses 12 games every single year. If the ownership were 100% committed to winning at all costs, they'd be looking for ways AROUND the cap to get every possible advantage. Instead they spend well under the limit. They have their stadium and a full season of sellouts. I see no more excuses. None.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Sorrry, I think we used to be a laughing stock, now, I don't think anyone takes us lightly, except that, the head coach has lost this team and others can sense it.
Calll me a homer, but I honestly think alot of the weight of our failure this season is on Green.

You are a homer. But that is ok...you are an extremely passionate fan, and I understand how much you care about the team. Having said that, I don't know how much attention you pay to the national media but we are still a laughing stock, even more so with the recent success of the Clippers and Bengals, the only teams with our history of futility. We are 1-8 right now, and the only thing anyone thinks, beyond a select few, is "same old cards".

It was mind-numbingly obvious that there were major issues with the offensive line, a line that was the primary reason for lack of success the last few years. Flush with cash, how do we address this issue? By signing Milford Brown? Allowing 10+ million to sit around while many quality linemen were available is beyond explanation. Do you really believe that it is coincedence that our team is terrible every year, or that perhaps it is more than just bad luck? I love the team as much as anyone else, but it's pretty hard to stick up for them. Even worse when you spend lots of money, time and effort on a team that doesn't get it, and doesn't care.

 

[jstadvl]

True, But Green himself, said the O line was on him! How do you blame the Bidwills when they give him the reigns, and he just keeps blowing everything up?
OK could we pay more for something we've allready got? Yea.
I'm not at look up guys Ed, you'll have to forgive me that. But, Green has repeatedly put the onus for the O line on himself. That's fact, not just my truth versus anyone else's.
And yes, I believe that with the right moves, We'd be in the hunt right now.
We didn't make them, and personally, I'm glad. Because Green is front office material. He sees talent where others don't. But, that doesn't equate to being a great coach.
Yea Chris, in fans eyes, we might be. But, Not team to team. No team takes us lightly. Ask the Bears players what was the toughest game they played this year?
AND I will continue to be a homer! LOL

 

[jstadvl]

BTW pllease, don't anyone take any of this personal. OK?
Peace to you all,
DVL

 

[jstadvl]

Let me add one more thing. I do not think Green is a bbad coach. I think at this point, he has lost this team and they are playing as individuals, not as a team.
I just can't but? into the "cheap" Bidwills stuff any more.
There was a time, yes. But, not now.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

BTW pllease, don't anyone take any of this personal. OK?
Peace to you all,
DVL

Definitely not, it's nice to express differences of opinions without them turning into pissing matches. I like to believe that things are moving in the right direction, it just seems that the results haven't spoken to it yet. Until they do, fair or not, there will be the perception that the Bidwills are cheap and incompetent. My biggest problem with the team this year is the lack of fire, it makes me feel like an idiot to go spend the money and waste the time with a team that has seemingly checked out. You are making many thousands of dollars a week, at least have the pride to give your all. If the players cared about the team as much as most of us, we would rarely lose.

 

[BigRedMO]

True, But Green himself, said the O line was on him! How do you blame the Bidwills when they give him the reigns, and he just keeps blowing everything up?
OK could we pay more for something we've allready got? Yea.
I'm not at look up guys Ed, you'll have to forgive me that. But, Green has repeatedly put the onus for the O line on himself. That's fact, not just my truth versus anyone else's.
And yes, I believe that with the right moves, We'd be in the hunt right now.
We didn't make them, and personally, I'm glad. Because Green is front office material. He sees talent where others don't. But, that doesn't equate to being a great coach.
Yea Chris, in fans eyes, we might be. But, Not team to team. No team takes us lightly. Ask the Bears players what was the toughest game they played this year?
AND I will continue to be a homer! LOL

So who hired Green and has given him free reign? Is it possible Green has not been fired to save money? I can see the Bidwill logic that he has to pay him so why can him now and have to pay two head coaches for the rest of the year. The Cards are a laughing stock. To not fire him just compounds the image of the Cards ownership as incompetent and uncaring as to whether or not it puts a NFL caliber team together.

 

[40yearfan]

Yeah, those exact words.

NO, we're betting that the OC on the Cardinals is one of the lowest-paid in the league since it is the OWNERSHIP that determines how much it pays its employees. Can you read? Here, let me quote myself:

"I'm sick of you playing this game. Look, how much do you want to bet that Rowen is (OK, was) one of the 5 lowest-paid coordinators in the league? Name an amount."

Oh, so now we change the game. You attributed words to M Bidwill and when I asked you how you knew he said that, you barked and tried to change what you said. My whole point is that M Bidwill would not say that and that you have no proof he did. Just pure speculation on your part.

Originally Posted by Ed Burmila
Yes, he did. He was told "pick whatever OC you want, just make sure he'll work for minimum wage." What a shock that we ended up with a dud.

Tell you what - I'll tell you to go buy a car and I'll pay for it. You can buy ANY car you want, just as long as it costs less than $1000. What do you think the odds are that you'll end up with a POS?

 

[jstadvl]

I think bringing in another head coach, interim, at this point in the season, would be fruitless. That's not being cheap. I wouldn't. And, following Chris's logic, I can now watch and see, who has the fire and who doesn't. As he said, no matter the coach, when your making $thousands each week, you should be coming to play, regardless. No?

 

[Ed Burmila]

BTW pllease, don't anyone take any of this personal. OK?
Peace to you all,
DVL

Absolutely not. I know where you're coming from. We all want the team to win.

We seem to be in complete agreement that Dennis Green has not performed well. I am not disputing that. He has chosen bad players for his OL and he hasn't properly motivated the team. For that, he will be fired. Rightly so.

On the other hand, I don't accept that one of the other problems - the poor quality of the assistant coaches - is entirely Green's fault. While Green certainly had authority to hire whomever he wanted, he hasn't been given many resources to work with. So I see that one as 50/50 on Green and the ownership.

It all adds up to Denny getting canned, and we all know that by now. Unfortunately, unless the front office is willing to commit more money to the coaching staff - which just makes sense given the huge amount of money they commit to players - then the next coach may have the same problem.

 

[jstadvl]

ok, ok. bUT, YOPU HAVE TO HAVE PEOPLE, WHP KNOW THEY ARE QUALIFIED TO BE MORE THAN ASSISSTANTS, BE WILLING TO TAKE THAT CHANCE. Sorry about the caps, I really didn't mean that, but i'm too damn lazy to go back and correct it.
Anyway, do you see my point? I agree. We could pay more for an OC, But if I'm an OC with HC aspirations, OC'n here does me no good. I don't think they'll let Pendergast just walk, without making a substantial offer to him.
The O line, on the other hand, is strictly on Greens shoulders, IMO.
I agree, Ed, to a degree. However, I think there's more to it than just opening the purse strings. Alot of it, I'd bet, has to do with Green.
I hope I'm wrong and your right. Because, as things change up front, so will that mind set, and I'd gladly admit you were onthe right page and I on the wrong.