Big coming or going?

[joeshmo]

Actually, under the new CBA, you can only tag a player once.

That isnt the new rule.

1st time franchised = top 5 average salary of position or 120% of previous years salary. Which ever is greater.

2nd time franchised = Same as first time.

3rd time franchised = Average top 5 QB salaries or 120% of the average of top 5 players at said position or 144% of players previous years salary. Which ever is greatest.

For example, you can franchise a kicker for a 3rd straight year if you dont mind paying him top 5 QB salary money.

So you can franchise a player 3 times but in reality a team will only ever do it twice as the 3rd time will cost astronomical amount of money.

 

[Duckjake]

Yeah, that is selective memory. We never ran the ball that well with him at G or RT. I don't think he made Pro Bowl alternate at either of those spots too. I'm thinking he might have at G his second season.

He actually played RG his rookie season. He was moved to RT for his second season. He played at both during his third year. So, he's never played LG.

In 2002 when BIG played Right Tackle because of Clements bad back the Cards averaged 4.4 yards per carry and Shipp and TJones combined to rush for over 1300 yards. They finished 15th in rushing and 10th in ypc that year.

Didn't help any as the Cards had 40 turnovers, gave up 417 points, and lost 9 of their last 10 games to finish, as usual, 5-11.

 

[jmr667]

That isnt the new rule.

1st time franchised = top 5 average salary of position or 120% of previous years salary. Which ever is greater.

.

Didn't Big get paid some huge amount this year? Was it high enough that the Cards would have to pay him 120% this year instead of the average of the top 5?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

That isnt the new rule.

1st time franchised = top 5 average salary of position or 120% of previous years salary. Which ever is greater.

2nd time franchised = Same as first time.

3rd time franchised = Average top 5 QB salaries or 120% of the average of top 5 players at said position or 144% of players previous years salary. Which ever is greatest.

For example, you can franchise a kicker for a 3rd straight year if you dont mind paying him top 5 QB salary money.

So you can franchise a player 3 times but in reality a team will only ever do it twice as the 3rd time will cost astronomical amount of money.

When you say "salary"... that doesn't include any bonuses paid in the last year of contract, right?

(What was Big's base salary this season?)

 

[joeshmo]

When you say "salary"... that doesn't include any bonuses paid in the last year of contract, right?

(What was Big's base salary this season?)

You are correct about what Salary means.

But there are also excalators in contracts and when those go into effect they raise the salary instead of giving the player a bonus.

In Davis Case he had an excalator in his contract that made his salary rise to over 9 Mill this season.

 

[joeshmo]

Didn't Big get paid some huge amount this year? Was it high enough that the Cards would have to pay him 120% this year instead of the average of the top 5?

Yes. His tag amount is over 11 Mill.

 

[Totally_Red]

Yes. His tag amount is over 11 Mill.

That's a lot of money, but I suspect he gets tagged for at least one year. We don't have anybody in the pipeline who can step into that slot, and rookie tackles normally take some time to develop.......

 

[RugbyMuffin]

... and some people don't seem to know that when you are tagged you can't go anywhere, and that the tag can be used again on the same player.

and yet even more people don't seem to know that you can tag a player and he can hold out, demand a trade, and be a instant cancer for the team.

Listen, Settle down. This snide attitude I am getting from some of you is ridiculous. Just take it easy. I got an opinion and so do many others.

You don't like mine that is fine. But this "this is my opinion and if you all don't agree with me you are all stupidheads" is really childish.

I am not going to go back and forth like K9 in a Boldin debate.

I don't like Big, I dislike him even more now that rumors and what not are flying about him not wanting to be in Arizona anymore. And I think he is overrated.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Only if we get compensation.

BIG wants to play OG because he knows that he can kick A$$ at the position. Doesn't make him a whiner necessarily, just smart.

Forget about BIG's salary for a second and think about what he does bring to the team. Cap room is about the last thing this team needs to worry about.

You see, this is the problem am having with the on going debate. I am being ripped for stating that I could care less if Big leaves or not, and that I am hoping for the "not". One of the main reasons for my "stupidity" is that we are letting a great player go for nothing and thus with out him we would continue to lose game after game.

But on the other hand the supporters for Davis staying are also agreeing with Davis that he should play LT. I find it quite contridictory that people are slamming me because my opinion will lead to losing yet this BIG wants this and that regardless if it helps the team or not is a winning attitude?

I see it that Big cares about Big and that is that. He wants his money that some how he thinks he deserves or has earned, yet he is an average G or T at best. AND that he wants to play the position he wants to even though he helps the team more by playing LT. That is a winning attitude? That is a team player?

Sorry. I have seen enough "talent" brought into Arizona. For the second time, I will state this team (even without Big) has more talent then half of the teams you will see in the playoffs. The talent is here, but this organization needs to become a team. They need to be team oriented, and play hard for one another AND SACRIFICE for the good of the team.

In my opinion, Big is not a team player, and could care less about winning. He wants money he hasn't earned, to play an easier position so he doesn't have to work as hard & won't be in the spotlight, and finally to be out of Arizona.

 

[CtCardinals78]

We are crazy if we don't keep him. At least franchise him for a year and see how the line works out. If we start winning next year the outlook will change and people will want to stay(not saying he doesn't want to.) If not then let him walk and rebuild the line. I would like to see what this line can do with a full year of not being screwed with. I think out pick will be too low to get Thomas, I see us drafting a DB with our first round pick.

 

[Evil Ash]

You see, this is the problem am having with the on going debate. I am being ripped for stating that I could care less if Big leaves or not, and that I am hoping for the "not". One of the main reasons for my "stupidity" is that we are letting a great player go for nothing and thus with out him we would continue to lose game after game.

But on the other hand the supporters for Davis staying are also agreeing with Davis that he should play LT. I find it quite contridictory that people are slamming me because my opinion will lead to losing yet this BIG wants this and that regardless if it helps the team or not is a winning attitude?

I see it that Big cares about Big and that is that. He wants his money that some how he thinks he deserves or has earned, yet he is an average G or T at best. AND that he wants to play the position he wants to even though he helps the team more by playing LT. That is a winning attitude? That is a team player?

Sorry. I have seen enough "talent" brought into Arizona. For the second time, I will state this team (even without Big) has more talent then half of the teams you will see in the playoffs. The talent is here, but this organization needs to become a team. They need to be team oriented, and play hard for one another AND SACRIFICE for the good of the team.

In my opinion, Big is not a team player, and could care less about winning. He wants money he hasn't earned, to play an easier position so he doesn't have to work as hard & won't be in the spotlight, and finally to be out of Arizona.

Correction: Rumor. It was only one and it was started on this board from an annonymous source

Davis wants to be paid. Thats it. He wants to hit the open market where he's the best available Olineman. He hasn't acted like an ass nor has he given any clues of being a cancer. You're really reaching here.

He doesn't want the franchise tag put on him. So what? Big friggin deal. No player wants to have the tag put on him but after it happens the overwhelming majority get over it. Walter Jones was tagged twice, Shaun Alexander was also tagged, a great number of players have had the tag placed on them and have been model teammates afterward.

You think Big is replaceable. Fine but not having a plan and letting him go for nothing makes this team go 2 steps back

 

[D-Dogg]

Rugby... I want us to tag Big, and I want someone to take him from us. Very simple. I don't really enjoy Big's play here...but if we don't tag him we are getting nothing.

I am very confident someone will give us the compensation needed if we tag him...he will be THE prime tackle in FA.

It's not that I love Big or anything like it...if he leaves then I don't think it hurts us THAT much...but I want compensation for him leaving. Nobody else on the team is in need of being tagged...we have it, the FA market is shaping up to make him a hot commodity, and if we don't use it on Big, we are freaking stupider than I've ever believed us to be.

Stand up and get a 1st or 2nd round pick.
Sit down and get absolutely nothing.


I'd prefer the front office stood up on this one.

 

[Duckjake]

You think Big is replaceable. Fine but not having a plan and letting him go for nothing makes this team go 2 steps back

In 2003 we saw what happens when a franchise lets veteran players go for nothing and has to replace them with rookies and cast offs.

Are we willing to trade a highly rated rookie (the player they could draft instead of a Tackle) and Leonard Davis for someone like Joe Thomas?

At least this time age (Sanders) and idiocy (Boston) aren't forcing their hands.

 

[Evil Ash]

In 2003 we saw what happens when a franchise lets veteran players go for nothing and has to replace them with rookies and cast offs.

Are we willing to trade a highly rated rookie (the player they could draft instead of a Tackle) and Leonard Davis for someone like Joe Thomas?

At least this time age (Sanders) and idiocy (Boston) aren't forcing their hands.

I could live with getting Thomas and replacing BIG with him if the new coaching staff/FO is absolutely sold on him (no questions on whether he is better then Big, no maybes) and they know for certain theycan get him. As of now, we're picking 5th and pretty much all of the teams ahead of us can use Olinemen.

My fear is we let Big go for nothing, Joe Thomas is gone in the draft, and we're stuck trying to figure out who will be our future LT when our Oline for the first time in a decade was actually starting to play well. It would be typical Cardinals stupidity

 

[ajcardfan]

and yet even more people don't seem to know that you can tag a player and he can hold out, demand a trade, and be a instant cancer for the team.

...

Bah. Walter Jones was franchised and held out twice, Pace did it once. Didn't matter a damn bit. It's just doing business, once the deal is signed, no one cares any more.


Don't you think you might be making a little too much of rumor that was third-handed at best by the time it was posted here?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Rugby uses rumour twisted into facts to support his bias. No worse than K-9's interpretation of stats to support his slanted view.

(Don't you just know, that if Quan has a Hall of Fame career, K-9 will be pumping out stats on induction day proving without doubt that A.J. Zebrarse Jr. from Bohunk State is by far a superior wideout...

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Rugby uses rumour twisted into facts to support his bias. No worse than K-9's interpretation of stats to support his slanted view.

(Don't you just know, that if Quan has a Hall of Fame career, K-9 will be pumping out stats on induction day proving without doubt that A.J. Zebrarse Jr. from Bohunk State is by far a superior wideout...

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Rugby uses rumour twisted into facts to support his bias. No worse than K-9's interpretation of stats to support his slanted view.

Whatever.

When did I state fact ?

When have I ever stated anything I have said so far is a fact ?

I have stated time and time again in all of my posts that this is MY OPINION.(look it up in a dictionary if you don't know what opinion means).

I also stated that I think the "source" talking about Big is a reliable one, and that I believe Davis wants out of Arizona. Furthermore, go do some research because before this rumor every appeared I have said that Big has looked like he has be done with this organization before. I said it earlier this year, last year, and years before so this is nothing new.

I like the fact that you label me to "use rumor to twist into facts". If that is your opinion then fine. But that makes you a lier, and a person who puts words into others mouths. I also find it quite childish that you cannot respect someone's opinion who differs from yours. It is nice to see you use insults, and talk down to others to make them look "crazy" or "stupid" instead of using your head or respectable conversation to show your points.

Furthermore how does K9 have a "slanted view". He has a strong opinion about Q. It is his opinion. If anyone is dumb enough to debate with him about then it is there fault for getting into that mess. It is not right, it is not wrong, it is an opinion from some dude on a message board.

So I guess you are saying. My opinion, or K9's opinion is just plain nuts. Made up of nonsense stats, and twisted rumours. But your opinion is God's law, and all who don't follow are heretics of the Cardinal chuch and should be casts away for blasphemy.

I don't know who peed in your corn flakes but take it down a notch. Try respecting other opinions and opening your mind to world outside of your little box. There is no 100% truth to what is going on with Davis and the Cardinals. Everything being said right now is opinions, heresay, and projection. It is mindless football banter. Not personal attacks on you are anyone else. Just a different opinion.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Correction: Rumor. It was only one and it was started on this board from an annonymous source

You are completely 100% right it is a rumor. And it is one that I believe in. Furthermore, it is a rumor about Big not wanting to be in Arizona anymore, and that is something that I have believed in for at least 2 years now.

Davis wants to be paid. Thats it. He wants to hit the open market where he's the best available Olineman. He hasn't acted like an ass nor has he given any clues of being a cancer. You're really reaching here.

Once again. It is something I BELIEVE. I am not stating fact. I really don't know why I am being treated like I am the sports reports for the NY Times. I agree it is a reach. But still I do believe Big wants out of Arizona and has wanted to be out of AZ for some time, but has not acted on it because A. He is making good money here in AZ, B. at the time he was not playing well enough that a trade was a feasible option, or C. he was hurt.

He doesn't want the franchise tag put on him. So what? Big friggin deal. No player wants to have the tag put on him but after it happens the overwhelming majority get over it. Walter Jones was tagged twice, Shaun Alexander was also tagged, a great number of players have had the tag placed on them and have been model teammates afterward.

You made these points on another thread (yes, I am currently doing the same by jumping between the two). And I do see how tagging Big no matter what is the correct thing to do.

The lack of offensive linemen does make him good bait, and an $11 mil contract would be hard for Big to walk away from.

You think Big is replaceable. Fine but not having a plan and letting him go for nothing makes this team go 2 steps back

My response to this is simple the NFL is a crazy place. Sometimes when a team has a plan for a situation it fails. Sometimes is dumb luck plays a part and a superstar comes out of no where.

As for 2 steps back ? I really don't think Davis makes THAT BIG of an impact on this team. He is one average offensive linemen. This situation is being blown WAY out of proportion. It seems Davis is all of a sudden being looked at like a Walter Jones type player when he is clearly not, in my opinion (had to put in that last part, don't want anyone think I conjuring up another fact out of thin air).

 

[BigDavis75]

You are completely 100% right it is a rumor. And it is one that I believe in. Furthermore, it is a rumor about Big not wanting to be in Arizona anymore, and that is something that I have believed in for at least 2 years now.



Once again. It is something I BELIEVE. I am not stating fact. I really don't know why I am being treated like I am the sports reports for the NY Times. I agree it is a reach. But still I do believe Big wants out of Arizona and has wanted to be out of AZ for some time, but has not acted on it because A. He is making good money here in AZ, B. at the time he was not playing well enough that a trade was a feasible option, or C. he was hurt.




You made these points on another thread (yes, I am currently doing the same by jumping between the two). And I do see how tagging Big no matter what is the correct thing to do.

The lack of offensive linemen does make him good bait, and an $11 mil contract would be hard for Big to walk away from.




My response to this is simple the NFL is a crazy place. Sometimes when a team has a plan for a situation it fails. Sometimes is dumb luck plays a part and a superstar comes out of no where.

As for 2 steps back ? I really don't think Davis makes THAT BIG of an impact on this team. He is one average offensive linemen.This situation is being blown WAY out of proportion. It seems Davis is all of a sudden being looked at like a Walter Jones type player when he is clearly not, in my opinion (had to put in that last part, don't want anyone think I conjuring up another fact out of thin air).

I think you have a very incorrect perception of LD and this is affecting your view on this issue. To say he is "average at best" shows you don't really know his play that well. Please list 16 LTs in this league you would rather have to provide support for your claim that Big is "average at best."

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Whatever.

When did I state fact ?

When have I ever stated anything I have said so far is a fact ?

I have stated time and time again in all of my posts that this is MY OPINION.(look it up in a dictionary if you don't know what opinion means).

I also stated that I think the "source" talking about Big is a reliable one, and that I believe Davis wants out of Arizona. Furthermore, go do some research because before this rumor every appeared I have said that Big has looked like he has be done with this organization before. I said it earlier this year, last year, and years before so this is nothing new.

I like the fact that you label me to "use rumor to twist into facts". If that is your opinion then fine. But that makes you a lier, and a person who puts words into others mouths. I also find it quite childish that you cannot respect someone's opinion who differs from yours. It is nice to see you use insults, and talk down to others to make them look "crazy" or "stupid" instead of using your head or respectable conversation to show your points.

Furthermore how does K9 have a "slanted view". He has a strong opinion about Q. It is his opinion. If anyone is dumb enough to debate with him about then it is there fault for getting into that mess. It is not right, it is not wrong, it is an opinion from some dude on a message board.

So I guess you are saying. My opinion, or K9's opinion is just plain nuts. Made up of nonsense stats, and twisted rumours. But your opinion is God's law, and all who don't follow are heretics of the Cardinal chuch and should be casts away for blasphemy.

I don't know who peed in your corn flakes but take it down a notch. Try respecting other opinions and opening your mind to world outside of your little box. There is no 100% truth to what is going on with Davis and the Cardinals. Everything being said right now is opinions, heresay, and projection. It is mindless football banter. Not personal attacks on you are anyone else. Just a different opinion.

I take no offence at being called a "lier", as I couldn't find it the dictionary you suggested I consult. As for my earlier point, I admit to being somewhat confused; you jump so often from assertions that connote facts, to covering it later with IMO, that one gets lost. I'll refrain in future from attempting to understand your permutable musings. As you alluded; it's nothing more than banter over the rather mindless game of football.

 

[Skkorpion]

Enough sniping, please. Ignore each other or use the ignore option in your user cp.

 

[Mr.Dibbs]

From the East Valley Tribune:
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=81436

"Normally, tackle Leonard “Big” Davis lingers in the locker room after practice, taking his time like most of the offensive linemen before he showers and leaves.

Friday, Davis — who will be an unrestricted free agent this offseason — was the first player off the practice field and one of the first in and out of the shower. His locker had already been cleaned out.

Was it a signal Davis is done in Arizona?

“We’ll see,” Davis said.

Davis doesn’t become a free agent until early March. The Cards can try to extend his contract before then, or use the franchise tag, although both cases seem unlikely as of now. "

 

[Duckjake]

From the East Valley Tribune:
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=81436

"Normally, tackle Leonard “Big” Davis lingers in the locker room after practice, taking his time like most of the offensive linemen before he showers and leaves.

Friday, Davis — who will be an unrestricted free agent this offseason — was the first player off the practice field and one of the first in and out of the shower. His locker had already been cleaned out.

Was it a signal Davis is done in Arizona?

“We’ll see,” Davis said.

Davis doesn’t become a free agent until early March. The Cards can try to extend his contract before then, or use the franchise tag, although both cases seem unlikely as of now. "

Looks to me like LD is going home, where ever that is, from San Diego and won't be back. If he or the Cards intended on LD being back next year they would have extended during the season when they had all the cap space.

Green will also be gone and the offseason will once again be more entertaining than the regular season.

 

[joeshmo]

Looks to me like LD is going home, where ever that is, from San Diego and won't be back. If he or the Cards intended on LD being back next year they would have extended during the season when they had all the cap space.

Green will also be gone and the offseason will once again be more entertaining than the regular season.

Could mean a lot. Or it could mean nothing.

Lots of players on non-playoffs teams have cleaned out their lockers the last day of practice. He also may have wanted to get out of their before the media started to drill him on his status for next year. But then again the guy never shows any emotion so who the heck knows.

I think it all depends on who the next coach is and what input he will have, so this story is far from over IMO. We still got 3 and half months to go before we find out the real ending to this story.