Booker Upset with Front Office?

[Raindog]

I remember that, it was quite different. There wasn't an extension offered the previous year to Gordon like JJ, which is one thing, but he also said that if the Hornets matched then they matched and he'd give his all for them but he wanted to come to Phoenix. He played both sides, in a way, as far as I remember it. It wasn't like JJ's deal though. JJ made it very clear he did not want to return to Phoenix, he said that before he even got an offer from anyone. It wasn't that he wanted to be a Hawk that badly, he just didn't want to be a Sun. That's a big difference. I remember some veiled threats also but don't recall the specifics. Basically if the Suns did match, it could have gotten very ugly though. They had the right to, but it would have hurt them around the league with other players also if they did. Since the sign and trade was on the table, they did that instead of pushing the issue.

Joe wanted out because he was insulted that Sarver did not extend him the year before RFA - Sarver essentially said that he wasn't sure JJ was worth the money, that he needed to come back and prove it again the next year. At that point, JJ's feelings turned pretty hard against the Suns and he wouldn't have come back here for any amount of money. The Suns were riding high at the time with the success they were having and Sarver's giant ego wrecked the whole thing. All the stuff about Johnson wanting to go somewhere else to "be the man" was a lot of propaganda to make him look bad.

 

[Hoop Head]

Joe wanted out because he was insulted that Sarver did not extend him the year before RFA - Sarver essentially said that he wasn't sure JJ was worth the money, that he needed to come back and prove it again the next year. At that point, JJ's feelings turned pretty hard against the Suns and he wouldn't have come back here for any amount of money. The Suns were riding high at the time with the success they were having and Sarver's giant ego wrecked the whole thing. All the stuff about Johnson wanting to go somewhere else to "be the man" was a lot of propaganda to make him look bad.

Have to wonder how Sarver would be viewed if the Joe Johnson situation was handled differently. That set everything off on the wrong foot though. I can see his POV but it really wasn't a huge difference in money. Even then, he shot himself in the foot a few more times because he could have told JJ that he'd have a max offer after the season before everything ended. He could have approached him with a max offer as soon as free agency started also but he decided to tell him to go get a max offer and he'd match it, which was the final straw. We saw how valuable he was in the San Antonio series. If he didn't break his face, who knows how that might have played out. That started the "cheap" label though. It's only been talked up since then despite him paying into the luxury tax a few times. He'd spend money, just not how he should have. Instead of paying 1 player what they were worth he thought it was better to have 2 guys who totaled that cost. Like Hedo, Warrick, and Childress to replace Amare. That wasn't close to a fair exchange but Sarver thought it was. I think he's learned his lesson with that by now. He hasn't pulled anything as equally bad since then.

 

[GatorAZ]

Joe wanted out because he was insulted that Sarver did not extend him the year before RFA - Sarver essentially said that he wasn't sure JJ was worth the money, that he needed to come back and prove it again the next year. At that point, JJ's feelings turned pretty hard against the Suns and he wouldn't have come back here for any amount of money. The Suns were riding high at the time with the success they were having and Sarver's giant ego wrecked the whole thing. All the stuff about Johnson wanting to go somewhere else to "be the man" was a lot of propaganda to make him look bad.

JJ wanted out because the Suns gave Quentin Richardson the exact same deal they wouldn’t give JJ. It was a slap in the face. Had the Suns just decided to hold off on an extension and not signed Q I think he would’ve been fine getting matched a year later.

 

[Phrazbit]

So let me get this straight. The story you guys are weaving is if Booker doesnt get absolute max he will hold this grudge for years and bolt to pretty much anywhere but here. He won't care if JJ is a borderline allstar or Ayton is a generational big. He won't care if he has "friends" on the team or the fact that Arizona isn't a bad place to live. He won't care if the suns are on the cusp of something great. He will just dwell and dwell and dwell on the fact he didn't get max. He won't consider this a business and that other players need to be signed. He will be petty and just leave to anywhere because he felt slighted years prior and go to some other team where everything will be perfect.


Uh huh

So.... the story you're weaving is that we'll pointlessly NOT give Booker a max because we want "some edge" as you put it? Or... is it because the difference in Booker making 25 mil a year vs 23 or 24 mil a year will somehow have ANY impact on our ability to sign someone else? Or that we're now daring Booker to put up a fight over this because we have Ayton now?

Uh huh

This might be the silliest argument I've ever read here. I know I've said that once or twice before... but... I dunno...

 

[Superbone]

I think pokerface must be reading The Art of War or something trying to get this small advantage on Booker. Bad idea.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Define "almost max" because if it is close to max they may as well just offer max. No reason to get cute with negotiations. There is also precedence for a max contract because of guys like Wiggins getting the max and Booker is certainly better than Wiggins was before he got his deal.

But by all accounts Wiggins is a mistake. So you use a mistake as precedence? That’s stupid business.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

But by all accounts Wiggins is a mistake. So you use a mistake as precedence? That’s stupid business.

And Booker is absolutely better than Wiggins was when he got his deal. Thus Booker is certainly good enough for the max.

 

[pokerface]

We don't have multiple talents. We have multiple players with potential. Booker is the only proven talent we have. Booker has earned the max. He is only getting his piece of the pie. Jackson had a few decent games, and Ayton hasn't played in a single game yet. They will spend the next couple of years trying to earn their piece of the pie.

That is true. But then again....we just got two top 10 picks. Our previous two top ten picks (Chriss and Bender) I have hope will improve under a new coach and playing with Ayton. And of course we all have high hopes for Jackson .


Let's see how this plays out. If the suns max him 100% then I'm not against against it totally but I'd like to believe we can afford to keep the talent we've aquired. It may be years down the road before a salary problem surfaces so nothing to get concerned about now.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Anywhere but here!

Next you're going to say we can always tank another season to find someone to fill Booker's place. Are you trolling us, seriously? That's the only thing that might make sense.

Pay Booker now, lock him into his MAX extension. That gives us 5 years beyond next season. That only happens with max money though. If we don't give him the max, he's not signing anything. Then he requests a trade. The Suns need to accommodate that, if they don't they risk killing team chemistry completely and pissing off more than just Booker.

If they try keeping him, then he signs the QO and is not a restricted free agent anymore. He needs to play out 1 season to leave the Suns in the rearview completely. Basically game over. He's got 1 year left, the Suns can't trade him for anything of value, at that point Jackson and Ayton hate this organization and start demanding to be traded also.

Expect the players association to get involved also because no team has EVER tried telling a player to shut and play for 1 full season after they've asked out. The Suns won't be the first. Meanwhile fans turn on the SUns completely, they set record lows in attendance and the team is worthless as a whole.

That takes 2 years, tops. All because you wanted to save a couple million. You'd make a fantastic GM.

Hmm I seem to recall kobe demanding to be traded the lakers digging in and they eventually won a championship. And of course the Nbapa did NOT get involved bc they had zero standing to do so. As would be the case here. In fact to even mention the players association here is fearmongering at its best.

Look I’m not saying don’t give him the max, but all of you seem to advocate gm-ing from a position of fear and weakness. I don’t get it. But I can say I’d salivate sitting across a negotiating table from you.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Quit deflecting and rephrasing your argument because no one is agreeing with you. You're literally the only person here who thinks we can somehow keep Booker by lowballing him.

Instead of ignoring things you've been asked over and over by people, try answering some questions that have been asked of you. What you're asking here has already been answered. This won't be a multi-year thing. It's happening now.

I laugh every time I read that anything less that total max is “lowballing.” Sheesh.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't think anyone wants to go through the Joe Johnson scenario again - and with the personalities involved with running the franchise, it's not too hard to imagine history repeating itself with the egos involved. I think that is why everyone is nervous about this. The Suns don't have a good recent history of dealing with this sort of thing.

The (original) JJ situation was a colossal screw-up by the Suns - like franchise history altering, in all likelihood. If Sarver goes down that road again, playing chicken with another top level talent who could help take the franchise to greater heights, then there is just really no hope for this team for the foreseeable future.

True but I do remember Sarver saying he learned from that lesson, didn’t he?

 

[pokerface]

Look I’m not saying don’t give him the max, but all of you seem to advocate gm-ing from a position of fear and weakness. I don’t get it. But I can say I’d salivate sitting across a negotiating table from you.

That is EXACTLY my view on this. I don't like some defacto "Give him max because we are afraid" view point. This is a business and the more spent on Booker is less spent on someone else whom we may need. If we can lock Booker in for less then by all means do it!

 

[Hoop Head]

Hmm I seem to recall love demanding to be traded the lakers digging in and they eventually won a championship. And of course the Nbapa did NOT get involved bc they had zero standing to do so. As would be the case here. In fact to even mention the players association here is fearmongering at its best.

Look I’m not saying don’t give him the max, but all of you seem to advocate gm-ing from a position of fear and weakness. I don’t get it. But I can say I’d salivate sitting across a negotiating table from you.

There is no point in trying to negotiate a deal with Booker. He's a max player, end of story. What's the point in trying to sell him on being less than that? That would be idiotic.

When did Love try to demand a trade? It wasn't as a restricted free agent. I know that. I don't even recall him publicly asking out of Cleveland, which I assume is where you're saying he wanted to leave since you mentioned winning a championship. He had the chance to leave as a free agent not but a few months later and resigned, quickly. He asked out as a negotiating tactic. Unlike Lebron's buddies he wasn't in line to get max money from them and wasn't playing like he had previously in Minnesota so he had to leverage into his way into a big deal. It was not a toxic situation like the situation with Booker could be.

I think the players association would love for a player who is a restricted free agent to ask out of his current team and they openly sign him and tell him he can't do anything about it. Restricted free agency is not in the players benefit at all. If they could find the right situation to get behind it could go a long way in helping them try to abolish it altogether.

That's the main thing I took issue with here. Pokerface kept saying that it can't be an issue for 3-4 years down the road because we basically own Booker and control him for that much longer but that's simply not the case. If the Suns burn down the relationship with him now, he's a restricted free agent next offseason and can work his way out of here. It's not as simple as saying "Nope, you're not going anywhere, we'll match" because he could bash the Suns in the press to the point that we'd be beyond stupid for matching a deal, which is when I believe the players union might get involved, or he can say, fine I'll sign the QO and leave. If he did that, we'd be completely screwed because no one is trading for him on a 1 year qualifying offer.

Not offering him the max or trying to play hardball with him right now is not in the Suns best interest. Trying to argue differently doesn't make sense. Do you want to see McD blow things? If he can't get Booker to sign an extension that everyone thought was a sure thing a month or two ago because a couple million dollars then I'd bet you'd want to see him fired like just about every other Suns fan.

 

[Hoop Head]

That is EXACTLY my view on this. I don't like some defacto "Give him max because we are afraid" view point. This is a business and the more spent on Booker is less spent on someone else whom we may need. If we can lock Booker in for less then by all means do it!

Trying to say that people are advocating for the max now because we're "afraid" of something is ridiculous. Don't try to assume anyone's reason behind offering him the max. It's his market value. Pay him what he's worth. There isn't a question he'd get that money in the open market.

Look at how this thread started, everyone who is advocating the max now was doing the same thing a year ago. No one has gotten scared of anything. It's simply stupid to try to lowball him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Good

There is another thing that I haven't really seen taken into consideration here and that is the projection of the future cap. Booker would be signing a max against a cap that is currently 101 million, but that number is expected to get much higher in the following years. The cap is expected to be as high as 134 million in the last year of Booker's contract. Thus I don't see Booker's deal now having too much of an effect on our ability to extend JJ and Ayton later.

point

 

[pokerface]

Trying to say that people are advocating for the max now because we're "afraid" of something is ridiculous. Don't try to assume anyone's reason behind offering him the max. It's his market value. Pay him what he's worth. There isn't a question he'd get that money in the open market.

Look at how this thread started, everyone who is advocating the max now was doing the same thing a year ago. No one has gotten scared of anything. It's simply stupid to try to lowball him.

Not totally poop. Fans are saying all over the place we don't want to pay less than max because we might make him mad and want to leave. Plus Booker doesn't play both sides of the ball...so there is some room for improvement ...some room for negotiations.

We can max him this season or next. If he wants that security right now he might need to concede something...ESPECIALLY if he wants a player option at the end of his contract.

 

[AzStevenCal]

.

I laugh every time I read that anything less that total max is “lowballing.” Sheesh.

I've used lowballing several times but I don't know if I've drawn a line to max. I assume max but for all I know they might have reasons to offer something less. But it won't be because we're petty as one poster has implied. I'd be surprised if the dollar amount part of the negotiations is anything more than rubber-stamped. Both sides should have that line fairly well established by now. It's the player option(s) that will need to be sorted out.

AFAIC, most of the negotiations have already taken place. They took place when we told the world he was our future, on and off the court. You don't lowball someone like that. He certainly has not earned a max deal by his play, we're paying him mostly on potential. And if you say he has potential to be one of the game's best, you have to pay him like that IMO.

 

[Hoop Head]

I laugh every time I read that anything less that total max is “lowballing.” Sheesh.

You want to get into semantics now? What is it called when you offer someone less than their value? Lowballing, perhaps? Maybe you call it something else.

It's a negotiation, yes, but what is gained by trying to offer him less than the max? Every media member who mentioned Booker's eligibility for an extension has said it's expected we'll sign him to a max extension. I know that's not the Suns saying it but it does sort of shape expectations. McD and Sarver haven't disputed that when it's been brought up to them. They just state how important Booker is for the Suns and how he's the face of the franchise and the future of the team.

If we go into the negotiations and say "Yeah, they're all wrong, this is what we have for you" how do you think he'll respond? Especially the day after we already pissed him off by waiving his best friend.

It's not so much we waived his best friend either, it's how it was done. We said all decisions would be run by Booker because he's our franchise player. We didn't do that. Now we're offering him a chunk less than he's expecting to get, which he's expecting because it's his market value that any other team would gladly pay him and also been reported by every analyst that covers the NBA, so how does he respond?

From his perspective, it seems like things have changed recently and he's not as important as the Suns, Sarver, and McD said he was. First we go back on our word and then a day later we short change him? What does that do for the Suns? What sort of positive spin is there for this?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Not totally poop. Fans are saying all over the place we don't want to pay less than max because we might make him mad and want to leave. Plus Booker doesn't play both sides of the ball...so there is some room for improvement ...some room for negotiations.

We can max him this season or next. If he wants that security right now he might need to concede something...ESPECIALLY if he wants a player option at the end of his contract.

Because it would be a lowball offer. It would be different if people were saying “well I know he’s not worth the max, but we don’t want to upset him so just give it to him”.

The basis of my feelings on the matter and I assume for many others as well is that he is worth the max and offering less is an insult.

 

[pokerface]

Because it would be a lowball offer. It would be different if people were saying “well I know he’s not worth the max, but we don’t want to upset him so just give it to him”.

The basis of my feelings on the matter and I assume for many others as well is that he is worth the max and offering less is an insult.

Ok...Booker can just play this season out and risk injury. He can get max next season. He's still getting max right? If it's all about max then why do it now? What are the suns getting out of this by maxing him early? They need to get 'something'....not just uhh we don't want to hurt Booker's feelings. Suns are taking a risk signing him early. He could get hurt then we are stuck.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Ok...Booker can just play this season out and risk injury. He can get max next season. He's still getting max right? If it's all about max then why do it now? What are the suns getting out of this by maxing him early? They need to get 'something'....not just uhh we don't want to hurt Booker's feelings. Suns are taking a risk signing him early. He could get hurt then we are stuck.

It’s not about hurting or not hurting his feelings. It’s about keeping him away from free agency and sending a strong message about how we handle the guys that are important to this franchise. You don’t tout a guy as the face of the future of your franchise and then not be willing to pay up when the opportunity arises.

 

[BC867]

Sigh. More name calling? Really? How would YOU have prepped for negotiations? Oh, and what would your goal be as a GM in these negotiations?

By honoring the public commitment that Sarver and McDonough made to involve Booker in personnel transactions (especially when it involves a friend, whom BTW I agree should have not been kept).

How is it 'name calling' to conclude that Sarver and McDonough are the least skilled Managing General Partner/GM combination in the NBA? And now, the least honorable, going back on their word to the star of the team. That is ignorant behavior which I, as a Suns fan, don't appreciate. Do you?

 

[pokerface]

It’s not about hurting or not hurting his feelings. It’s about keeping him away from free agency and sending a strong message about how we handle the guys that are important to this franchise. You don’t tout a guy as the face of the future of your franchise and then not be willing to pay up when the opportunity arises.

The opportunity will be there next season
. We have the right to match any offer. Then if he gets hurt this season we dont know his name...lol.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

No one in the media has said anything about Booker getting less than the max, that's telling on it's own because it says what the market value is. It was even posted here a little bit ago about the only way the Suns could mess negotiations with Booker is by trying to short him on his exchange. .

First allow me to unequivocally state I am not opposed to giving booker the max. But I condition that on one thing - if that’s the appropriate market for him. If the team can sign him to less and keep him happy, that’s a win for all sides. All this talk of negotiating out of fear is so incredibly awful it makes me want to puke.

Second, the above statement by poop head is not true. I believe that within the last few days someone quoted a bordow tweet that said something to the extent of “offering him the max (or close to it)”. The part in parentheticals explicitly contemplated something less than the max. I hate when posters make something up or exaggerate (which is really still making something up) that isn’t true to try to win an argument.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The opportunity will be there next season
. We have the right to match any offer. Then if he gets hurt this season we dont know his name...lol.

Why treat our face of the franchise like an asset. They labeled him the face of the franchise, now they should prove it with their wallet.