Call your shot, who are we drafting...

[Solar7]

Sunk costs are sunk costs. Talent is talent. The two shouldn’t be confused or combined for analysis (unless it’s the analysis used to fire keim).

Anything I say about this whole situation is framed in the omnipresent issue of judging whether or not Keim can move us forward, and if Kyler is truly the answer and a generational QB, or just a guy who will pile up stats. The point is, either way, we've invested and we keep finding the need to invest in the same positions. It's either Keim can't make it work or the rest of the team can't make it work, you've eventually gotta hold someone accountable.

Again you’re conflating draft position with talent. Rodgers has one of the best receivers in the nfl and a top rb. So he’s already got one more weapon than kyler. Brees has always had some combination of top wr, top te, top rb. More than kyler has had. Brady is a good example, but that makes him the exception, not manning.

I'm talking about investment. Draft position frankly does correlate with investment, since higher picks are harder to get and where the bulk of the league's talent comes from. Rodgers has a top WR from the 3rd round and a top RB from the 5th round. We can't seem to make those things work. Brees' top skill players were undrafted (Colston), 2nd round picks (Thomas), 3rd round picks (Graham, Kamara), or free agents, outside of Mark Ingram and Brandin Cooks who are really just footnotes along his career in terms of top picks.

These teams didn't have to invest wildly into getting guys who ended up playing well because their QBs made the most of later picks.

Meanwhile, we're spinning our wheels every year talking about how Kyler needs more weapons to get by. First rounders, trading for top 5 WRs, etc. When's the day that Kyler's going to make a 4th round pick look better than he is because he's just that good of a passer?

That's the reason it's frustrating. We're repeating the same thing because we can't draft talent to save our lives and are desperately pressing the reset button at WR constantly.

 

[Solar7]

Or maybe they didn’t warrant the selection or they’ve detiorated. Again, WHEN THEY WERE DRAFTED DOESNT MATTER IF YOU’RE DETERMINING IF THEY'RE TALENTED OR NOT. The argument is he is surrounded by talent and other QBs didn’t need that talent. I’m saying no, he isn’t surrounded by talent. He’s got a HOF receiver, an adequate 3rd receiver, and reclamation projects (green and Conner) and not-yets (Edmonds) and nada (TEs).

The point is, if Kyler/Keim/Kliff can't make something out of that investment work, it's time one or multiple of them goes.

 

[Garthshort]

Earth to Solar, come in Solar. KM has played a total of TWO SEASONS. And he didn't even have an offseason before his second year. And he had us in playoff contention going into the final weeks of the season. And, just a reminder, Arizona, in the year before he arrived was the worst team in the NFL. My guess is that you're not a Kyler fan.

 

[Solar7]

Earth to Solar, come in Solar. KM has played a total of TWO SEASONS. And he didn't even have an offseason before his second year. And he had us in playoff contention going into the final weeks of the season. And, just a reminder, Arizona, in the year before he arrived was the worst team in the NFL. My guess is that you're not a Kyler fan.

It's not that I'm not a Kyler fan, it's that I'm not going to give him a free pass and call him a surefire superstar until he shows it, and most of this board seems to have an excuse for anything he does. All QBs need more talent, but we're now in year 3 of saying "he needs more weapons," which is starting to mean "he needs more 1st round talent."

This is on Keim and Kliff and his staff more than Kyler, but a 1st overall pick needs to be able to find success without being surrounded with 1st round pick talent all the time.

We already got him AJ Green. I would have preferred a different direction, but he's the #2 guy our staff identified. Now that's seemingly not enough and we're talking about a 3rd or 4th WR going at #16 to get Kyler weapons, and just... ugh. We're continuously repeating past mistakes and holding no one accountable for it, then saying "sunk cost fallacy" and continuing to swim against the current.

 

[QuebecCard]

Anything I say about this whole situation is framed in the omnipresent issue of judging whether or not Keim can move us forward, and if Kyler is truly the answer and a generational QB, or just a guy who will pile up stats. The point is, either way, we've invested and we keep finding the need to invest in the same positions. It's either Keim can't make it work or the rest of the team can't make it work, you've eventually gotta hold someone accountable.


I'm talking about investment. Draft position frankly does correlate with investment, since higher picks are harder to get and where the bulk of the league's talent comes from. Rodgers has a top WR from the 3rd round and a top RB from the 5th round. We can't seem to make those things work. Brees' top skill players were undrafted (Colston), 2nd round picks (Thomas), 3rd round picks (Graham, Kamara), or free agents, outside of Mark Ingram and Brandin Cooks who are really just footnotes along his career in terms of top picks.

These teams didn't have to invest wildly into getting guys who ended up playing well because their QBs made the most of later picks.

Meanwhile, we're spinning our wheels every year talking about how Kyler needs more weapons to get by. First rounders, trading for top 5 WRs, etc. When's the day that Kyler's going to make a 4th round pick look better than he is because he's just that good of a passer?

That's the reason it's frustrating. We're repeating the same thing because we can't draft talent to save our lives and are desperately pressing the reset button at WR constantly.

Really?

Kyler's entering his third season in the NFL after 17 College starts and generating offence at a record pace. The guy who got the ball in Dhop's hands 115 times can get in the hands of others if they are open.

The guy who complains about how few players we have under contract for next season might want to consider that it's Dhop and scrubs in 2022 at this point.

 

[Russ Smith]

The point is, if Kyler/Keim/Kliff can't make something out of that investment work, it's time one or multiple of them goes.

I suspect that's the plan if we can't get a CB in round 1 we're likely going to take a WR and then try and trade Isabella.

I'm in no way saying Kyler is infallible, he's not, but I don't think it's reasonable to blame him for Isabella's struggles so far. It's like the guy in the park in basketball who keeps saying guys I'm wide open and someone finally just decides not to be nice and says "there's a reason you're wide open, they WANT you to shoot."

It's been apparent for 2 years Kyler doesn't trust Andy, we've seen multiple examples of why on drops or balls he loses in the lights or plays he gives up on . If we cut or trade him and he becomes productive somewhere else ok that would suck but I'm sure not expecting that's going to be the case.


My dream scenario would be Waddle, I don't think that's happening so what I hope happens is we wind up moving down a bit and taking Toney, or we take a DB in round 1 and take a WR in round 2

My new sleeper guy at Wr is Eskridge from Western Michigan but apparently some NFL teams have him as high as the 2nd round which means not a sleeper

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Anything I say about this whole situation is framed in the omnipresent issue of judging whether or not Keim can move us forward, and if Kyler is truly the answer and a generational QB, or just a guy who will pile up stats. The point is, either way, we've invested and we keep finding the need to invest in the same positions. It's either Keim can't make it work or the rest of the team can't make it work, you've eventually gotta hold someone accountable.


I'm talking about investment. Draft position frankly does correlate with investment, since higher picks are harder to get and where the bulk of the league's talent comes from. Rodgers has a top WR from the 3rd round and a top RB from the 5th round. We can't seem to make those things work. Brees' top skill players were undrafted (Colston), 2nd round picks (Thomas), 3rd round picks (Graham, Kamara), or free agents, outside of Mark Ingram and Brandin Cooks who are really just footnotes along his career in terms of top picks.

These teams didn't have to invest wildly into getting guys who ended up playing well because their QBs made the most of later picks.

Meanwhile, we're spinning our wheels every year talking about how Kyler needs more weapons to get by. First rounders, trading for top 5 WRs, etc. When's the day that Kyler's going to make a 4th round pick look better than he is because he's just that good of a passer?

That's the reason it's frustrating. We're repeating the same thing because we can't draft talent to save our lives and are desperately pressing the reset button at WR constantly.

I think this is where we disagree. Regardless of how they were acquired these players didn’t play well because the QBs made the best of it. They had talent. Do you think if these players played elsewhere their talent wouldn’t have prevailed? If so, I think you’re out to lunch. If the question is does kyler have enough talent surrounding him the answer is compared to other top successful QBs, no - he hasn’t had the equivalent talent surrounding him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's not that I'm not a Kyler fan, it's that I'm not going to give him a free pass and call him a surefire superstar until he shows it, and most of this board seems to have an excuse for anything he does. All QBs need more talent, but we're now in year 3 of saying "he needs more weapons," which is starting to mean "he needs more 1st round talent."

This is on Keim and Kliff and his staff more than Kyler, but a 1st overall pick needs to be able to find success without being surrounded with 1st round pick talent all the time.

We already got him AJ Green. I would have preferred a different direction, but he's the #2 guy our staff identified. Now that's seemingly not enough and we're talking about a 3rd or 4th WR going at #16 to get Kyler weapons, and just... ugh. We're continuously repeating past mistakes and holding no one accountable for it, then saying "sunk cost fallacy" and continuing to swim against the current.

No, we are saying he needs more talent. And the first and second round are where a good gm identifies the best talent. Particularly if they’re not willing to pay for the best free agent talent. Now we have a lousy gm who sucks at his job in free agency and the draft. But that doesn’t mean you throw your hands in the air and not still try to add the needed talent.

let’s take Brees or Rodgers last year and compare to what kyler has right now . . .

Rodgers has adams and jones
Kyler has Hopkins and green (for the sake of argument I’ll put AJ bc there’s no one else that deserves the #2 weapon description). In terms of purely winning games you wouldn’t trade Aaron jones talent for greens current talent? You’re outta your mind if you say no.

Brees had Thomas and Kamara
Kyler has Hopkins and green. Also wouldn’t trade green current talent for kamara? Of course you would!

in other words, Brees and Rodgers played with more talented cast than kyler has headed into next season. They didn’t raise the play of untalented players like Lazard to any great heights.

 

[Solar7]

Really?

Kyler's entering his third season in the NFL after 17 College starts and generating offence at a record pace. The guy who got the ball in Dhop's hands 115 times can get in the hands of others if they are open.

The guy who complains about how few players we have under contract for next season might want to consider that it's Dhop and scrubs in 2022 at this point.

I'll repeat: I don't think Kyler is the problem. I also wonder what he's going to become in the future if the only way he can win is to surround him with 1st round picks (that hit) on offense. That won't be sustainable. Also, were it up to me, we would have signed a longer term, proven #2 this offseason instead of the 1 year rental of Green. I'm terrified we draft another bust rookie WR. Sick of investing there.

I suspect that's the plan if we can't get a CB in round 1 we're likely going to take a WR and then try and trade Isabella.

I'm in no way saying Kyler is infallible, he's not, but I don't think it's reasonable to blame him for Isabella's struggles so far. It's like the guy in the park in basketball who keeps saying guys I'm wide open and someone finally just decides not to be nice and says "there's a reason you're wide open, they WANT you to shoot."

It's been apparent for 2 years Kyler doesn't trust Andy, we've seen multiple examples of why on drops or balls he loses in the lights or plays he gives up on . If we cut or trade him and he becomes productive somewhere else ok that would suck but I'm sure not expecting that's going to be the case.


My dream scenario would be Waddle, I don't think that's happening so what I hope happens is we wind up moving down a bit and taking Toney, or we take a DB in round 1 and take a WR in round 2

My new sleeper guy at Wr is Eskridge from Western Michigan but apparently some NFL teams have him as high as the 2nd round which means not a sleeper

Isabella stinks and that's not Kyler's fault. Sometimes guys just don't have it, and whoever was standing on the table in that draft for him (looked like Kliff) made a terrible personnel judgement. It's probably best I put it this way: I don't mind investing more in Kyler's weapons, it's just the degree of the investment I'm tired of. We keep throwing money and assets trying to get our offense to work like our "offensive genius" coach wants it. Like @BritCard said, if you can only win with overwhelming force, it's time to look at the general.

 

[Solar7]

I think this is where we disagree. Regardless of how they were acquired these players didn’t play well because the QBs made the best of it. They had talent. Do you think if these players played elsewhere their talent wouldn’t have prevailed? If so, I think you’re out to lunch. If the question is does kyler have enough talent surrounding him the answer is compared to other top successful QBs, no - he hasn’t had the equivalent talent surrounding him.

No, I don't think these guys would have been surefire stars in different systems with different QBs. If they would have... they probably would have gone higher. I mean, Aaron Jones took forever to get his shot. Davante Adams took 4 years to really emerge as an elite weapon. Even still, surprisingly he's only had two years over 1,000 yards and has never played 16 games in a season. Rodgers knows how to get these guys in position and use them in different facets of the passing game. Kinda the same with Brees' guys.

When other QBs have played with them, the results haven't been as great. But I think it's a little symbiotic.

No, we are saying he needs more talent. And the first and second round are where a good gm identifies the best talent. Particularly if they’re not willing to pay for the best free agent talent. Now we have a lousy gm who sucks at his job in free agency and the draft. But that doesn’t mean you throw your hands in the air and not still try to add the needed talent.

let’s take Brees or Rodgers last year and compare to what kyler has right now . . .

Rodgers has adams and jones
Kyler has Hopkins and green (for the sake of argument I’ll put AJ bc there’s no one else that deserves the #2 weapon description). In terms of purely winning games you wouldn’t trade Aaron jones talent for greens current talent? You’re outta your mind if you say no.

Brees had Thomas and Kamara
Kyler has Hopkins and green. Also wouldn’t trade green current talent for kamara? Of course you would!

in other words, Brees and Rodgers played with more talented cast than kyler has headed into next season. They didn’t raise the play of untalented players like Lazard to any great heights.

It'd be misleading to say I don't want to pursue more talent, it's just that I want to start rethinking how we acquire that talent or holding our bad GM accountable when he keeps swinging and missing at the exact same pitch.

Obviously I'd rather have Jones & Kamara, but I'm also an advocate of taking an RB at #16.

I don't think Marquez Valdez-Scantling, Allen Lazard, Robert Tonyan, etc. are even on rosters without what Rodgers is doing. Same with Brees' guys. We'll see exactly how well they do with Winston and Hill this year... I bet it's nowhere near close.

I'd much prefer to see us adding some complementary 3rd or 4th round picks at WR and trying to coach them up rather than feeling like Kyler can't do this without his literal 3rd/4th WR being a 1st or 2nd round pick. We're passing up so much talent that could round out this team on defense or other parts of the offense by going WR, WR, WR, WR, every year... and still putting our entire hopes on Kyler. This team has no pathway to winning that isn't through him having an amazing game. If he's not 100% on, it's a loss almost guaranteed.

 

[dscher]

I'll repeat: I don't think Kyler is the problem

You've come a long way from the draft a couple years ago... Apparently, some don't remember just how steadfast you were against the guy before the draft. Baby steps man.. baby steps.

 

[juza76]

We are drafting Teven Jenkins after trading back in the early twenties

 

[QuebecCard]

I'll repeat: I don't think Kyler is the problem. I also wonder what he's going to become in the future if the only way he can win is to surround him with 1st round picks (that hit) on offense. That won't be sustainable. Also, were it up to me, we would have signed a longer term, proven #2 this offseason instead of the 1 year rental of Green. I'm terrified we draft another bust rookie WR. Sick of investing there.


Isabella stinks and that's not Kyler's fault. Sometimes guys just don't have it, and whoever was standing on the table in that draft for him (looked like Kliff) made a terrible personnel judgement. It's probably best I put it this way: I don't mind investing more in Kyler's weapons, it's just the degree of the investment I'm tired of. We keep throwing money and assets trying to get our offense to work like our "offensive genius" coach wants it. Like @BritCard said, if you can only win with overwhelming force, it's time to look at the general.

Say what?

 

[Solar7]

Say what?

I'm tired of swinging and missing on 2nd rounders and would be even more irritated if we messed up in the 1st after investing so much.

WR by this point should be considered a luxury pick. And honestly? It still kinda is. If we draft one in the first, we're spending a really high pick to see the field only when we go 4-wide, maybe 3-wide if he's immediately ready to play over Kirk. All while we have desperate need at ~3-4 positions both now and in the near future.

 

[BigDavis75]

I'm tired of swinging and missing on 2nd rounders and would be even more irritated if we messed up in the 1st after investing so much.

WR by this point should be considered a luxury pick. And honestly? It still kinda is. If we draft one in the first, we're spending a really high pick to see the field only when we go 4-wide, maybe 3-wide if he's immediately ready to play over Kirk. All while we have desperate need at ~3-4 positions both now and in the near future.

WR is a desperate need in the near future and we need a returner badly. Green is on a one year contract and none of the other guys - Andy, Kirk, Keesean - represent a long term fix for the position.

 

[Solar7]

WR is a desperate need in the near future and we need a returner badly. Green is on a one year contract and none of the other guys - Andy, Kirk, Keesean - represent a long term fix for the position.

It's still a position where we have a superstar going into next year though.

The real desperate future positions are RB, TE, with 0 players who have ever played in an NFL game. Next is CB with no starters next year, just Byron Murphy (and obviously an immediate need more than any other position). Even OLB is technically scarier than WR in the future, IMO.

 

[DVontel]

It's still a position where we have a superstar going into next year though.

The real desperate future positions are RB, TE, with 0 players who have ever played in an NFL game. Next is CB with no starters next year, just Byron Murphy (and obviously an immediate need more than any other position). Even OLB is technically scarier than WR in the future, IMO.

Boy it’s real alarming you listed RB & TE before CB.

 

[Solar7]

Boy it’s real alarming you listed RB & TE before CB.

In 2022.

Having one player is better than having 0, just by default.

 

[Proximo]

It's not that I'm not a Kyler fan, it's that I'm not going to give him a free pass and call him a surefire superstar until he shows it, and most of this board seems to have an excuse for anything he does. All QBs need more talent, but we're now in year 3 of saying "he needs more weapons," which is starting to mean "he needs more 1st round talent."

This is on Keim and Kliff and his staff more than Kyler, but a 1st overall pick needs to be able to find success without being surrounded with 1st round pick talent all the time.

We already got him AJ Green. I would have preferred a different direction, but he's the #2 guy our staff identified. Now that's seemingly not enough and we're talking about a 3rd or 4th WR going at #16 to get Kyler weapons, and just... ugh. We're continuously repeating past mistakes and holding no one accountable for it, then saying "sunk cost fallacy" and continuing to swim against the current.

It’s not enough because green most likely sucks and is on a 1 year deal.

I want our first 2 picks to be cb and WR, because I think they would make the biggest impact on the team.

I really don’t care about the past, sunk cost is sunk cost. Kyler only has one legit receiver IMO, and that is just not good enough in today’s nfl.

 

[FB94]

Big speed Wr and CB first two picks in no particular order. Trade back in round one and pick up a third would be ideal.

 

[GatorAZ]

Ceedee Lamb who I thought looked skinny in college is 32 lbs heavier than D Smith. I can’t make up my mind on him.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[juza76]

I hope in a trade back scenario

Terrance Marshall without Joe Burrow he had 735 yards and 10tds in seven games, lenght and speed what we need, then lsu has an history of great receivers

Melinfowu/Asante Samuel Jr/Paulson Adebo in round 2

Ossai in round 3

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

No, I don't think these guys would have been surefire stars in different systems with different QBs. If they would have... they probably would have gone higher. I mean, Aaron Jones took forever to get his shot. Davante Adams took 4 years to really emerge as an elite weapon. Even still, surprisingly he's only had two years over 1,000 yards and has never played 16 games in a season. Rodgers knows how to get these guys in position and use them in different facets of the passing game. Kinda the same with Brees' guys.

When other QBs have played with them, the results haven't been as great. But I think it's a little symbiotic.


It'd be misleading to say I don't want to pursue more talent, it's just that I want to start rethinking how we acquire that talent or holding our bad GM accountable when he keeps swinging and missing at the exact same pitch.

Obviously I'd rather have Jones & Kamara, but I'm also an advocate of taking an RB at #16.

I don't think Marquez Valdez-Scantling, Allen Lazard, Robert Tonyan, etc. are even on rosters without what Rodgers is doing. Same with Brees' guys. We'll see exactly how well they do with Winston and Hill this year... I bet it's nowhere near close.

I'd much prefer to see us adding some complementary 3rd or 4th round picks at WR and trying to coach them up rather than feeling like Kyler can't do this without his literal 3rd/4th WR being a 1st or 2nd round pick. We're passing up so much talent that could round out this team on defense or other parts of the offense by going WR, WR, WR, WR, every year... and still putting our entire hopes on Kyler. This team has no pathway to winning that isn't through him having an amazing game. If he's not 100% on, it's a loss almost guaranteed.

Man if you don’t think adams and kamara would be stars elsewhere in the league we just aren’t speaking the same language.

 

[BritCard]

It wouldn't matter who we add to this offense. Available talent isn't the limiting factor. Kliff is.

Hopkins had 1400 yards basically running 10 yard out routes and go's all year. All from the left. The only reason it worked is because Hopkins is so elite at the sideline. Kirk ran mostly curls to the sticks and skinny posts. All from outside right. The only way Kliff's scheme can succeed is if he has elite guys that are better than the guy they are up against. This isn't college ball where you can win by having taller, faster, more athletic receivers go against inferior CB's and win one on one most of the time.

Watch the Bills offense, or the Packers, and see how they scheme guys open by using combination routes (routes designed to work together to create space for receivers). We don't do any of that, or at best it's extremely rare.

And yet somehow, despite it's massive limitations in scheme and supposedly below average weapons we finished 6th in YPG last year.

Now this is where you want to say "Yeah but take away Kylers running..." but if you take away Kyler's running those plays would have been replaced with other plays that would net yards for someone else. Maybe not as many, but likely still enough to keep us in the top 10 offenses.

Even defensively we weren't bad. 13th in total yards per game. Top 10 in passing yards allowed. 12th in PPG allowed. Our only real poor area was vs the run.

The reason we failed to make the playoffs was again down to Kliff. Bad play calls at crucial times that cost us games or just poor strategic decisions like an untested Streveler at backup over a proven Hundley.

The main thing that needs to improve is Kliff.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

The main thing that needs to improve is Kliff.

This is the main thing

There are many areas we need to improve on and it starts at the top