Call your shot, who are we drafting...

[juza76]

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[QuebecCard]

I'm tired of swinging and missing on 2nd rounders and would be even more irritated if we messed up in the 1st after investing so much.

WR by this point should be considered a luxury pick. And honestly? It still kinda is. If we draft one in the first, we're spending a really high pick to see the field only when we go 4-wide, maybe 3-wide if he's immediately ready to play over Kirk. All while we have desperate need at ~3-4 positions both now and in the near future.

Luxury pick?

Sure, if you conveniently ignore that it's Dhop and scrubs under contract in 2022.

 

[QuebecCard]

It's still a position where we have a superstar going into next year though.

The real desperate future positions are RB, TE, with 0 players who have ever played in an NFL game. Next is CB with no starters next year, just Byron Murphy (and obviously an immediate need more than any other position). Even OLB is technically scarier than WR in the future, IMO.

If you actually think that finding RB, TE, OLB for 2022 is more difficult than finding a true #2 next to Dhop... you're alone, I suggest.

 

[BritCard]

If you actually think that finding RB, TE, OLB for 2022 is more difficult than finding a true #2 next to Dhop... you're alone, I suggest.

He's not alone. I'm with him.

We have Kirk and Green. If neither of them can be better than a rookie then we are screwed anyway.

Rookie wide receivers generally suck. Even those who are eventually great. Metcalf and Jefferson are outliers.

Your lucky to get 800 yards out of a 1st round pick WR in year one. Keyshawn Johnson 866 yards. Megatron 756 yards. Hopkins 802 yards. Larry 780 yards. Marvin Harrison 836 yards. Of the 102 receivers drafted in round 1 since '94 only 10 have 1000 yard rookie seasons.

If we can't get 800 yards from Green or Kirk we have much bigger issues.

And we are drafting a WR2. We have Nuk for years yet. So why do we need to use a 1st on a WR2? Why not our 2nd and get Rondale Moore, or Dyami Brown etc who are more than talented enough to be a WR2.

All the positions he mentioned are greater needs than WR. Especially when a rookie wide receiver is very unlikely to give you what you envision.

 

[Krangodnzr]

It wouldn't matter who we add to this offense. Available talent isn't the limiting factor. Kliff is.

Hopkins had 1400 yards basically running 10 yard out routes and go's all year. All from the left. The only reason it worked is because Hopkins is so elite at the sideline. Kirk ran mostly curls to the sticks and skinny posts. All from outside right. The only way Kliff's scheme can succeed is if he has elite guys that are better than the guy they are up against. This isn't college ball where you can win by having taller, faster, more athletic receivers go against inferior CB's and win one on one most of the time.

Watch the Bills offense, or the Packers, and see how they scheme guys open by using combination routes (routes designed to work together to create space for receivers). We don't do any of that, or at best it's extremely rare.

And yet somehow, despite it's massive limitations in scheme and supposedly below average weapons we finished 6th in YPG last year.

Now this is where you want to say "Yeah but take away Kylers running..." but if you take away Kyler's running those plays would have been replaced with other plays that would net yards for someone else. Maybe not as many, but likely still enough to keep us in the top 10 offenses.

Even defensively we weren't bad. 13th in total yards per game. Top 10 in passing yards allowed. 12th in PPG allowed. Our only real poor area was vs the run.

The reason we failed to make the playoffs was again down to Kliff. Bad play calls at crucial times that cost us games or just poor strategic decisions like an untested Streveler at backup over a proven Hundley.

The main thing that needs to improve is Kliff.

I think you can't separate the two; the fact that the Cardinals were top ten offensively while Kliff called the plays means that Kliff isn't 100% the problem.

I think Kliff was mostly good as a play caller. WR talent WAS an issue outside of Hopkins. I think Kirk isn't a true outside receiver and Fitz was basically a TE.

Kliff sucked at situational football at times, but he did show tremendous growth calling plays in the redzone. Once Murray got hurt is when this offense took a real nosedive.

 

[slanidrac16]

I'm sticking with my Mock:

C. Farley in the 1st
R. Moore in the 2nd

Moore will be gone.

 

[BritCard]

Kliff sucked at situational football at times, but he did show tremendous growth calling plays in the redzone. Once Murray got hurt is when this offense took a real nosedive.

This is why. Kliff sucks at situational football. He's ultra conservative when it comes to the crunch. Sure, he'll go for it on 4th and 1 if we are behind and desperate. Basically take the choice out of his hands.

But in single score games he butt puckers up and he calls the conservative play. For all the talk about Gonzalez losing us the Fins and Pats games it was Kliff that cost of those games. We should have won both easily (although VJ takes some blame for the Fins too). We saw the same thing in his first season.

And while his RZ stats were great to start the season, teams soon figured him out come the 2nd half and those stats dropped way off. We don't need any more offensive weapons if Kliff can start using the ones we have better.

The Murray thing I feel is overblown. Yes, it bothered him some but the main difference it made was we didn't run Kyler as much which exposed how weak the rest of Kliff's playbook was. When he had to rely solely on his scheme teams had little trouble handling us.

 

[QuebecCard]

He's not alone. I'm with him.

We have Kirk and Green. If neither of them can be better than a rookie then we are screwed anyway.

Rookie wide receivers generally suck. Even those who are eventually great. Metcalf and Jefferson are outliers.

Your lucky to get 800 yards out of a 1st round pick WR in year one. Keyshawn Johnson 866 yards. Megatron 756 yards. Hopkins 802 yards. Larry 780 yards. Marvin Harrison 836 yards. Of the 102 receivers drafted in round 1 since '94 only 10 have 1000 yard rookie seasons.

If we can't get 800 yards from Green or Kirk we have much bigger issues.

And we are drafting a WR2. We have Nuk for years yet. So why do we need to use a 1st on a WR2? Why not our 2nd and get Rondale Moore, or Dyami Brown etc who are more than talented enough to be a WR2.

All the positions he mentioned are greater needs than WR. Especially when a rookie wide receiver is very unlikely to give you what you envision.

I take that you either misunderstood or ignored what I actually said.

I was addressing a partner to Dhop in 2022 selected in this draft and it may be the best value at #16.

And, yes, we all know that new players have an adjustment period; perhaps none more so than w/o and CB's. We selected DRC at #16 and it took half a season to blend him into the defence in season one.

So I repeat: If you actually think that finding a RB, TE, OLB for 2022 is more difficult than finding a true #2 next to Dhop... you're confused, I suggest, but you are not alone.

 

[slanidrac16]

I think the cards trade down. We swap #1’s and pick up another 2nd.

We end up with Wr Toney ( or Moore) rb Entiene and cb Stokes.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It wouldn't matter who we add to this offense. Available talent isn't the limiting factor. Kliff is.

Hopkins had 1400 yards basically running 10 yard out routes and go's all year. All from the left. The only reason it worked is because Hopkins is so elite at the sideline. Kirk ran mostly curls to the sticks and skinny posts. All from outside right. The only way Kliff's scheme can succeed is if he has elite guys that are better than the guy they are up against. This isn't college ball where you can win by having taller, faster, more athletic receivers go against inferior CB's and win one on one most of the time.

Watch the Bills offense, or the Packers, and see how they scheme guys open by using combination routes (routes designed to work together to create space for receivers). We don't do any of that, or at best it's extremely rare.

And yet somehow, despite it's massive limitations in scheme and supposedly below average weapons we finished 6th in YPG last year.

Now this is where you want to say "Yeah but take away Kylers running..." but if you take away Kyler's running those plays would have been replaced with other plays that would net yards for someone else. Maybe not as many, but likely still enough to keep us in the top 10 offenses.

Even defensively we weren't bad. 13th in total yards per game. Top 10 in passing yards allowed. 12th in PPG allowed. Our only real poor area was vs the run.

The reason we failed to make the playoffs was again down to Kliff. Bad play calls at crucial times that cost us games or just poor strategic decisions like an untested Streveler at backup over a proven Hundley.

The main thing that needs to improve is Kliff.

While I agree with your overall premise that kliff needs to improve your first statement is wrong, as evidenced by the fact that you state “The only reason it worked is because Hopkins is so elite at the sideline.” So obviously it would matter who we add to this offense. If they’re an elite talent they’ll help make up for kliffs deficiencies. Will it be enough to make us an elite team? No. I don’t believe you can be elite with a subpar coach. But will it matter who is added to the offense? Absolutely.

 

[BritCard]

While I agree with your overall premise that kliff needs to improve your first statement is wrong, as evidenced by the fact that you state “The only reason it worked is because Hopkins is so elite at the sideline.” So obviously it would matter who we add to this offense. If they’re an elite talent they’ll help make up for kliffs deficiencies. Will it be enough to make us an elite team? No. I don’t believe you can be elite with a subpar coach. But will it matter who is added to the offense? Absolutely.

My point is, it wouldn't matter because it wouldn't be enough to overcome Kliff's deficiencies.

The biggest weakness last year was Kliff. If Kliff improves that alone should be enough for a playoff run.

I also think Nuk, Green, Kirk is better than what we had last year. Our O line is better without Sweezey and Cole and with Hudson. Our RB room is about the same. The offense is already better in my opinion outside of TE.

We were already 6th ranked offense and got better.

 

[DVontel]

I forgot about Teven Jenkins.

He might actually be the pick.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think is Keim will try to move up in the draft for a player he wants even if it costs a future first round pick.

Figuring out who he wants is a tough call. It could be someone like Jaycee Horn or DeVonta Smith.

 

[Solar7]

If you actually think that finding RB, TE, OLB for 2022 is more difficult than finding a true #2 next to Dhop... you're alone, I suggest.

Have you looked at the available players at these spots for next year? Adding a #2 shouldn't be that hard compared to rebuilding entire positions from the ground up, or finding a superstar pass-rusher.

No matter what, having D-Hop in hand makes that position so much better than the others.

 

[QuebecCard]

Have you looked at the available players at these spots for next year? Adding a #2 shouldn't be that hard compared to rebuilding entire positions from the ground up, or finding a superstar pass-rusher.

No matter what, having D-Hop in hand makes that position so much better than the others.

OK fine.

This is what I deserve for responding to a fantasist.

 

[slanidrac16]

It comes down to who do you think we should draft and who do you think we will draft.

I think we should do everything in our power to trade down and pick up an additional 2 nd round pick. Give me Toney, Williams and Stokes, Wr,rb,cb. The cb’s worth the 16th Pick will be gone.

What I think Keim will do? At 16 welcome Travis Etienne and with #49 OT Liam Eichenberg.

 

[slanidrac16]

It comes down to who do you think we should draft and who do you think we will draft.

I think we should do everything in our power to trade down and pick up an additional 2 nd round pick. Give me Toney, Williams and Stokes, Wr,rb,cb. The cb’s worth the 16th Pick will be gone.

What I think Keim will do? At 16 welcome Travis Etienne and with #49 OT Liam Eichenberg.

 

[DVontel]

Some folks here want to avoid DeVonta but wants a damn 270 tweener ILB likes it 1978.

 

[Garthshort]

My wish list. Before I get to the Cardinals, my first wish is that SF selects Jones and not Lance or Pitts.

My Final Five, in order:
1. Smith, WR
2. Toney, WR
3. Harris, RB
4. Collins, LB
5. AVT, OL

And, naturally I listed guys who have a chance to be there when we pick.

 

[BritCard]

Can we stop picking slot WR's when we need an outside guy? Waddle, Elijah Moore, Kadarius Toney, Rondale Moore. All exclusively slot guys in college.

You look at the heat maps on all these guys and nearly all their targets are behind the LOS or between the hashes.

If we want an outside WR2 it's Bateman or Marshall.

 

[slanidrac16]

Can we stop picking slot WR's when we need an outside guy? Waddle, Elijah Moore, Kadarius Toney, Rondale Moore. All exclusively slot guys in college.

You look at the heat maps on all these guys and nearly all their targets are behind the LOS or between the hashes.

If we want an outside WR2 it's Bateman or Marshall.

Maybe some are looking at Kirk as being gone next year.

 

[BritCard]

Maybe some are looking at Kirk as being gone next year.

I doubt it. I expect him to have at least a decent year and then to keep him at reasonable value.

But also because Kliff's scheme (and Kyler's height limitations) limit what we do between the numbers. I don't see us ever having a bunch of targets for a slot receiver. I don't see us ever getting more than 600-700 yards out of a slot.

Larry had more in Kyler's first year but a bunch of those were on deep routes towards the sidelines.

 

[QuebecCard]

The question is who?

No idea... but I'll go with the Slim Reaper or Z. Collins.

 

[TRW]

The wrong guy.

 

[Garthshort]

Can we stop picking slot WR's when we need an outside guy? Waddle, Elijah Moore, Kadarius Toney, Rondale Moore. All exclusively slot guys in college.

You look at the heat maps on all these guys and nearly all their targets are behind the LOS or between the hashes.

If we want an outside WR2 it's Bateman or Marshall.

That's why I listed Smith, number one. And Toney gives us insurance if we don't have Kirk, next year. And I believe he's also, punt returner, which Kirk is terrible at.