Cardinals at Vikings PS gameday thread 8-26-23

[TheCardFan]

Allen was not expendable and Thomas may become a better player but isn’t right now. Keim didn’t extend Allen when he should have in my opinion. I believe Allen was leaving before the new regime was put in place.

I liked Zach Allen but paying him top 11 DE money (15m/year) for a career best 5.5 sacks on a team that is in full rebuild mode doesn't make sense.

You will get his production from Cam Thomas plus some and a higher ceiling IMO.

 

[BirdGangThing]

Cam is going to be a better version of Zach Allen.

Already much better than Allen after first season in NFL.

Also why Allen was expendable.

I don't think Zach Allen was expendable - I think he was too expensive during a tear down year, same for Murphy

 

[PJ1]

I liked Zach Allen but paying him top 11 DE money (15m/year) for a career best 5.5 sacks on a team that is in full rebuild mode doesn't make sense.

You will get his production from Cam Thomas plus some and a higher ceiling IMO.

You don’t mention batting down 8 passes which was top of the league for a DL. The Cardinals could have extended him for less than he received in FA. They just waited too long.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

You don’t mention batting down 8 passes which was top of the league for a DL. The Cardinals could have extended him for less than he received in FA. They just waited too long.

I'm sure Allen would have stayed if the money was right, but I also know that he mentioned wanting to continue Vance Joseph's system. Murphy did say he wanted to stay in AZ.

 

[PJ1]

I'm sure Allen would have stayed if the money was right, but I also know that he mentioned wanting to continue Vance Joseph's system. Murphy did say he wanted to stay in AZ.

They could have extended him before last season or early in the season. For much less than he got in FA in my opinion. Agree he wasn’t staying at all after the season ended.

 

[ajcardfan]

Then why was he playing deep into the third preseason game?

Same reason Rashad Lawrence was. He isn't Monti-Gannon guy.

 

[Garthshort]

Then why was he playing deep into the third preseason game?

Possibly, and I don't know, because by playing more it will make him a better player. I'm sure, he's a lock for the 53.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Cam is going to be a better version of Zach Allen.

Already much better than Allen after first season in NFL.

Also why Allen was expendable.

He almost matched Allen's best year producing sacks last year playing a fraction of the downs.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Then why was he playing deep into the third preseason game?

This logic is so ridiculously stupid, and obviously intentionally negative and contrarian.

Thomas played a total of 17 snaps, most of those coming early in the game. Destroys your inane argument.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Same reason Rashad Lawrence was. He isn't Monti-Gannon guy.

Kerouac is wrong, he only played 17 snaps early in the game.

 

[PACardsFan]

He almost matched Allen's best year producing sacks last year playing a fraction of the downs.

Had Allen stayed healthier, I’m pretty certain we would have seen more production from him & extended him. I really do like Cam, and think he will have a nice career with the Cardinals.

 

[kerouac9]

This logic is so ridiculously stupid, and obviously intentionally negative and contrarian.

Thomas played a total of 17 snaps, most of those coming early in the game. Destroys your inane argument.

Triggered much bro? His position on the depth chart and that fact that he was playing deep into the second quarter of the third preseason game are facts that you can’t deny. He was second string in the third preseason game.

I like Thomas too, but nothing about the way he’s been handled by the coaching staff supports their seeing him in the same light we do.

Jesse Luketa was getting snaps ahead of him.

 

[BritCard]

Then why was he playing deep into the third preseason game?

Because he missed game 2 and a week of camp with a knock

 

[BritCard]

They could have extended him before last season or early in the season. For much less than he got in FA in my opinion.

This is the worst of all fan myths.

How would that happen? Is the guys agent in a coma?

You're a player that's FA next year and your team offers you $10m now that you won't get until next year.

If you wait until next year you can have up to 32 teams bidding for your services. And you're an ascending player (that's why your team is offering you now) so chances are after another season you're worth $15m per year.

So why would you take $10m now?

The only money you would take now is the $15m you think you will get next year.

 

[PJ1]

This is the worst of all fan myths.

How would that happen? Is the guys agent in a coma?

You're a player that's FA next year and your team offers you $10m now that you won't get until next year.

If you wait until next year you can have up to 32 teams bidding for your services. And you're an ascending player (that's why your team is offering you now) so chances are after another season you're worth $15m per year.

So why would you take $10m now?

The only money you would take now is the $15m you think you will get next year.

Nonsense. If you want to keep a player you don’t wait until the last year of their contract is over to do so. The player turning down a good offer is also taking a risk. Successful teams keep ascending players. Allen or his agent had no idea a $15M offer was waiting nor did they know how the season would turn out.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Triggered much bro? His position on the depth chart and that fact that he was playing deep into the second quarter of the third preseason game are facts that you can’t deny. He was second string in the third preseason game.

I like Thomas too, but nothing about the way he’s been handled by the coaching staff supports their seeing him in the same light we do.

Jesse Luketa was getting snaps ahead of him.

Not triggered at all bub. I just love listening to these yarns you spin that have no basis in reality. I'm laughing at it.

You started out saying he played deep into the game (which is patently false) and then have now changed it to deep into the 2nd quarter.

Thomas started the game, not Luketa, and they were also on the field to together once Ojulari was pulled for Luketa. Again you are wrong. @BritCard answered why he likely played even as much as he did (a fairly paltry 17 snaps).

Edited to add: How was Luketa getting snaps over Thomas, while Thomas was getting beat in pass coverage on the first drive?

 

[BritCard]

Nonsense. If you want to keep a player you don’t wait until the last year of their contract is over to do so. The player turning down a good offer is also taking a risk. Successful teams keep ascending players. Allen or his agent had no idea a $15M offer was waiting nor did they know how the season would turn out.

Sure, you can sign them early. If you pay then future market rate. The nonsense part is the "You can sign them cheaper if you sign them early".

How many players going into year 4 have signed extensions from this list? This is round 2. But same goes for round 3 if you want to look.

Far as I can tell Diggs is the only guy who's not Jalen Hurts and he signed a 5 years $97m deal. Hardly "cheap".

If this is something that really happens it should be easy for you to show me some examples. Let's say 5 from the last 5 years. Guys that signed early for a price you consider cheap. And while you're at it find me a guy thats JAG adjacent like Allen that signed early.

The only players that sign early are guys that already proved they are top players for top of the market rates.

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[PJ1]

Sure, you can sign them early. If you pay then future market rate. The nonsense part is the "You can sign them cheaper if you sign them early".

How many players going into year 4 have signed extensions from this list? This is round 2. But same goes for round 3 if you want to look.

Far as I can tell Diggs is the only guy who's not Jalen Hurts and he signed a 5 years $97m deal. Hardly "cheap".

If this is something that really happens it should be easy for you to show me some examples. Let's say 5 from the last 5 years. Guys that signed early for a price you consider cheap. And while you're at it find me a guy thats JAG adjacent like Allen that signed early.

The only players that sign early are guys that already proved they are top players for top of the market rates.

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Since you seem to know. What did the Cardinals offer Allen? Did they make an offer at all? His value increased after the last season for sure but I maintain the Cardinals could have extended him for less than 15M. I never read anywhere that he turned down an offer before the season. This a specific case pertaining to Allen. You have stated he was overpaid and is a JAG. That doesn’t make it so. Just your opinion. Would seem to me if he wasn’t a high performer he would be more anxious to sign.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

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[slanidrac16]

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I’d love it if the keep this kid and use a fullback in certain situations.

 

[BritCard]

Since you seem to know. What did the Cardinals offer Allen? Did they make an offer at all? His value increased after the last season for sure but I maintain the Cardinals could have extended him for less than 15M. I never read anywhere that he turned down an offer before the season. This a specific case pertaining to Allen. You have stated he was overpaid and is a JAG. That doesn’t make it so. Just your opinion. Would seem to me if he wasn’t a high performer he would be more anxious to sign.

Your assertion is that the Cards could have signed him for less had they signed him early. Yet he got $15.25m a year in FA. So Allen and his agent would have been dumb to take less right?

So what would be their motivation to sign early? What possible reason would Allen have to sign early for less money? It just doesn't happen, which is why there is absolutely no evidence of it around the league. Or if there is, it's rarer than hen's teeth.

Yet you talk about it as if it's something the Cards could have done routinely. As if had the offered Allen $10m a year ago he would have taken it. It's just not true, or remotely logical.

 

[PJ1]

Your assertion is that the Cards could have signed him for less had they signed him early. Yet he got $15.25m a year in FA. So Allen and his agent would have been dumb to take less right?

So what would be their motivation to sign early? What possible reason would Allen have to sign early for less money? It just doesn't happen, which is why there is absolutely no evidence of it around the league. Or if there is, it's rarer than hen's teeth.

Yet you talk about it as if it's something the Cards could have done routinely. As if had the offered Allen $10m a year ago he would have taken it. It's just not true, or remotely logical.

Yes a JAG like you say would have jumped at 3 years 10m per.

 

[BritCard]

I’d love it if the keep this kid and use a fullback in certain situations.

I think he makes the roster. I thought he looked pretty good at Edge too to be honest and made some nice plays in practice.

The odd man out at OLB for me is Dimukeje. Did nothing in preseason, was a ghost really, and doesn't play ST's. Doesn't really seem to be a scheme fit either.

 

[Garthshort]

Brit, your posts make a lot of sense. If King George had an advisor like you, way back when, we might all be driving on the left side of the road.

 

[BritCard]

Yes a JAG like you say would have jumped at 3 years 10m per.

Fantasy.

Why? Why would he JUMP at it? He's coming off a 4 sack season (with a 59 PFF grade BTW) and feels he's finally getting it. He's a year away from FA and all his focus is on being the best he can in the coming year to get that first fat contract and set him up for life.

What possible motivation would he have for taking $10m per? If the team are offering $10m early it's because THEY think he's ascending and want to get him cheap. Why wouldn't you wait for more?

The only possible reason is injury. But the odds of career ending injury are miniscule.

But most importantly, and this part is key, if this is a thing that players and agents would actually do where is the mountain of players being signed early for cheap? Every team wants to sign players cheaper, so where are all these players signing up early for less money?

Or is Zach Allen just especially stupid?