Cardinals, Brown in talks

[Redheart]

Because holding out of training camp is the only leverage that players and agents have to getting a better contract....If the team is already getting its value from the player (because he's participating in camp/playing games....

I think the leverage would still be with "playing games". Training camp does not give the team any vaule unless the player is playing in the first game.

If the player came in and had a full training camp under his belt, he would even be MORE valuable to the team to have for the first and subsequent game.

No contract, no games. Training camp; OK with appropriate insurance coverage.

 

[ajcardfan]

The entire NFL rookie system is a joke. The NBA has more first rounders signed than the NFL does right now. And, their draft was just a few weeks ago and their camps are still months away.

The current system does not benefit teams or players on the field. The biggest winners are the agents.

 

[kerouac9]

I think the leverage would still be with "playing games". Training camp does not give the team any vaule unless the player is playing in the first game.

If the player came in and had a full training camp under his belt, he would even be MORE valuable to the team to have for the first and subsequent game.

No contract, no games. Training camp; OK with appropriate insurance coverage.

So you'd be happier if teams just didn't work on contracts until the season starts, and then the player leaves camp and goes and sits at home?

There's plenty of time to get rookie deals done under the current system. It's the deadline mentality that keeps this system going. Graves and Brown's agent still haven't entered serious bargaining with less than 7 days from camp. I'd personally rather have the pressure start mounting now than have the player walk away in Week 1.

 

[joeshmo]

Except in off-season workouts with insurance coverage.

Why can't they get training camp insurance coverage for a little more money and get this show rolling on schedule?

Then again, that would take all the angst out of training camp starting date.

OTA's and voluntary workouts = no hitting more playbook and terminology work.
Mini camp = lots of hitting and a lot more injuries.

There wouldn't be just a little more money involved in insurance coverage it would be a huge increase.

 

[kerouac9]

OTA's and voluntary workouts = no hitting more playbook and terminology work.
Mini camp = lots of hitting and a lot more injuries.

There wouldn't be just a little more money involved in insurance coverage it would be a huge increase.

You mean training camp.

 

[Redheart]

So you'd be happier if teams just didn't work on contracts until the season starts, and then the player leaves camp and goes and sits at home?

There's plenty of time to get rookie deals done under the current system. It's the deadline mentality that keeps this system going. Graves and Brown's agent still haven't entered serious bargaining with less than 7 days from camp. I'd personally rather have the pressure start mounting now than have the player walk away in Week 1.

I hear your point; if you move the deadline, the deal would just take longer to do.

You may be right, but strictly speaking, there is no reason the weeks of training camp could not be used to address more difficult "contract" issues while the player continues with his professional duties.

Their will be a significant cost for the "Training Camp" insurance, all the more reason to avoid it and sign before training camp. But if the deal is not done, players can still train and prepare with their teams until the deal is done, at which time the Contract cancels the insurance. The cost of the insurance? That could be split between the Team and the Agent's commission; talk about putting an incentive in place for both...

...anyway, just a little thinking out loud, things can usually be improved and the current system has some inherent flaws. Agents love to wait and see what the player after and before them sign for; then they try to get a better deal and earn “points” as being a better agent. They really are not that concerned with the player and his professional development or the Team and their preparation needs. Nor, is their any real incentive to be; the perception being that it is more important for future business and being the agent that gets “better than market” value for his clients.

The problem is clear, with the big-price signings, agents are waiting to get as much information as possible and assure they do not sign their guy to a perceived “under valued” contract as well as trying to make a killer deal to market with.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I don't know if he's telling the truth,or not, but it was reported that Condon said Graves never even approached him about talking contract until day 1 of camp last year with Leinart. That, if true,is just another "feather" in the Rod Graves GM legacy and is pretty amazing to me.It should tell you all you need to know about whether Brown will be holding out. I tend to think it's a true statement. Otherwise, why would we have an announcement that they have been in contact with each other this year.

 

[az1965]

Cards, top picks talk deals

Kent Somers
The Arizona Republic
Jul. 24, 2007 12:00 AM

The Cardinals and the agents for their top two draft picks have agreed on the structure of contracts, but one pesky little detail is holding up negotiations.

Money.

"We have made proposals that are indicative of where our beliefs are to where the market will be," said Rod Graves, the team's vice president of football operations.

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"And obviously the agents have a slightly higher opinion about that."

Still, Graves is encouraged that the parties aren't haggling over years, types of bonuses and escalator clauses, especially with their first-round pick, offensive tackle Levi Brown.

The higher the pick, the more complicated the contract, so it's especially important to the Cardinals that the framework of a deal is in place for Brown, the fifth overall pick.

Players are due to report to training camp in Flagstaff on Friday, and Graves is hopeful that Brown and defensive tackle Alan Branch, the first pick in the second round, will be signed by then.

"I've had almost daily conversations with (the agents)," Graves said. "Talks have been progressing well on both sides. At this point, I'd say we're further along on Branch."

There is a large chasm to cross before a deal is reached with Brown and his agent, Joel Segal.

Only three first-round picks have signed - none in the top 10. Many agents appear to be waiting until more deals are reached so they can slot their clients according to the contracts of those drafted around them.

Last year's fifth overall pick, Green Bay linebacker A.J. Hawk, signed a six-year deal worth a reported $37.5 million, including $15 million in guarantees. His salary cap figure last year was $2.185 million.

The 33rd overall pick, Texans linebacker DeMeco Ryans, signed a four-year deal worth about $5 million.

The NFL salary cap increased from $102 million to $109 million this year, so it figures that rookie contracts would increase about 7 percent.

Brown and Branch are the Cardinals' only unsigned players, and the Cardinals have dealt with their agents before.

Segal represents receiver Bryant Johnson, a first-round pick in 2003. Johnson missed four days of camp before signing. Branch's agent, Ben Dogra, represents Antrel Rolle, the eighth overall pick in 2005. Rolle missed the first eight days of training camp. [Argghh... not good... az1965]

 

[Mulli]

Please sign Levi already, in tradition with the family plan.

 

[JeffGollin]

- Gaines Adams at #4 is said to have signed for $46.0 mil ($18.5 mil guaranteed).

- We drafted Brown at #5.

- Last year's #5 (AJ Hawk) signed a contract which included $15.0 mil guaranteed money.

- With Brown the only unsigned rookie, the remaining available money in the rookie pool can go to him.

- This year's total cap figure is said to be 7% higher than last year's.

If you set paramaters based on (a) Adam's$18.5 mil, (b) Hawk's $15.0 mil (c) which would project to $16.05 mil guaranteed when adjusted for 7% inflation and (d) limits established by the remaining cap budget, you can logically conclude that Brown's deal will fall somewhere between $16.0 - $17.0 mil guaranteed.

Even a cave man should be able to negotiate that contract.

 

[PoolBoy]

hey man, dont you watch commercials? you cant mess with cave men anymore

 

[joeshmo]

- Gaines Adams at #4 is said to have signed for $46.0 mil ($18.5 mil guaranteed).

- We drafted Brown at #5.

- Last year's #5 (AJ Hawk) signed a contract which included $15.0 mil guaranteed money.

- With Brown the only unsigned rookie, the remaining available money in the rookie pool can go to him.

- This year's total cap figure is said to be 7% higher than last year's.

If you set paramaters based on (a) Adam's$18.5 mil, (b) Hawk's $15.0 mil (c) which would project to $16.05 mil guaranteed when adjusted for 7% inflation and (d) limits established by the remaining cap budget, you can logically conclude that Brown's deal will fall somewhere between $16.0 - $17.0 mil guaranteed.

Even a cave man should be able to negotiate that contract.

If it were only that simplistic. If it were that easy contracts would be done weeks ago.

You cant just slot top 10 picks in between to other picks then say add 7%. It just doesn't work that way. These contracts are getting so creative now a days and certain positions do get a premium, that slotting between a slot in front of you and behind your, or basing numbers on last year #5 just doesn't fly.

Player at #4 can get 18 Million but the player at #5 could get 20 Mill in guaranteed. It all depends on how the contract is laid out. What portion of that guaranteed is signing bonus, and what is the roster bonuses, and how is the roster bonus spread out and in what year does the player get, what are the base salaries look like, is it base minimum the first year then 15 Mill in the 5 year, what are the incentives, are they hard to get or easy to get, and so on.(run on rambling sentence).

 

[Ryanwb]

Joe Thomas signed today so I bet Levi signs first thing tomorrow

 

[JeffGollin]

You cant just slot top 10 picks in between to other picks then say add 7%. It just doesn't work that way. These contracts are getting so creative now a days .

Normally, I'd agree; however, there were reports quoting Graves as saying that the structure of the contract had been pretty much agreed to; the key remaining issue was money.

 

[football karma]

Jurecki -- with a FWIW --

says that talking to his sources, really beleives the Brown deal will get done this weekend. Says that they are down to guaranteed money and how it breaks down between year 1 vs years 2 and 3.

 

[Red Hawk]

2007 FIRST-ROUND SIGNINGS
No. Team Player, Position Contract Length
1 Oakland JaMarcus Russell, QB Unsigned
2 Detroit Calvin Johnson, WR Unsigned
3 Cleveland Joe Thomas, OT 6 years
4 Tampa Bay Gaines Adams, DE 6 years
5 Arizona Levi Brown, OT Unsigned
6 Washington LaRon Landry, FS Unsigned
7 Minnesota Adrian Peterson, RB Unsigned
8 Atlanta Jamaal Anderson, DE 5 years
9 Miami Ted Ginn Jr., WR 5 years
10 Houston Amobi Okoye, DT 6 years
11 San Francisco Patrick Willis, LB Unsigned
12 Buffalo Marshawn Lynch, RB 5 years
13 St. Louis Adam Carriker, DE 5 years
14 N.Y. Jets Darelle Revis, CB Unsigned
15 Pittsburgh Lawrence Timmons, LB 5 years
16 Green Bay Justin Harrell, DT signed
17 Denver Jarvis Moss, DE Unsigned
18 Cincinnati Leon Hall, CB Unsigned
19 Tennessee Michael Griffin, FS Unsigned
20 N.Y. Giants Aaron Ross, CB 5 years
21 Jacksonville Reggie Nelson, FS signed
22 Cleveland Brady Quinn, QB Unsigned
23 Kansas City Dwyane Bowe, WR Unsigned
24 New England Brandon Meriweather, FS signed
25 Carolina Jon Beason, LB Unsigned
26 Dallas Anthony Spencer, DE 5 years
27 New Orleans Robert Meachem, WR 5 years
28 San Francisco Joe Staley, OT 5 years
29 Baltimore Ben Grubbs, G 5 years
30 San Diego Craig Davis, WR 5 years
31 Chicago Greg Olsen, TE 5 years
32 Indianapolis Anthony Gonzalez, WR 5 years


Must be waiting on Washington.

 

[artp]

Graves is waiting for Landry or Peterson to sign. Thats fair.

 

[joeshmo]

Meriweather is signed as of mid-day today.

As for Brown he will be in by Monday practices as will 75% of the remaining 1st round picks in the NFL. Things seem to always magically go very fast in negotiations once players have to report to camp and media starts writing stories about how the team has a hold out. And 75% of the teams report to camp this weekend.

If Brown isn't in camp by Monday talks have gone horribly wrong and we will have to wait for another week past that for the talks to get back on track.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Levi and Laron have the same agent.... They shouldn't have to wait on Washington.

 

[joeshmo]

Harrell and Nelson are also signed.

Carolina and Beasons agent negotiations are getting really, really ugly.
Oakland seems to be talking like they don't expect Russell to be in camp any time and soon and most likely miss most of preseason, and they don't seem to really care.
Calvin Johnsons agent is asking for 30 Mill signing bonus which is mathematically impossible because of the rookie cap.
Quinn is still looking for top 10 money.

I think we could have 3-4 really, really long holdouts this season with all of them getting really ugly.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

I think we could have 3-4 really, really long holdouts this season with all of them getting really ugly.

Hopefully Brown won't be one of them ...

 

[Dr. Jones]

Hey Seigel!!! Sit Your Boy Down And Have Him Sign!!! Cmon Levi!!!!!!!!!!

 

[PoolBoy]

we need him to work with the o line so it doesnt take as much time as last year to get everyone on the same page.

 

[nidan]

I don't know if he's telling the truth,or not, but it was reported that Condon said Graves never even approached him about talking contract until day 1 of camp last year with Leinart. That, if true,is just another "feather" in the Rod Graves GM legacy and is pretty amazing to me.It should tell you all you need to know about whether Brown will be holding out. I tend to think it's a true statement. Otherwise, why would we have an announcement that they have been in contact with each other this year.

Yes and if not true its BS from an agent leaked to put pressure on the club.

Of course you tend to think it is true, you believe anything that comes out that paints the Cardinals organization in a poor light.

The point is you keep say 'if it is true', you don't really mean that, you believe it is true and you then proceed to talk based on that assumption being accurate.

The fact that it might not be true never is a consideration

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes and if not true its BS from an agent leaked to put pressure on the club.

Of course you tend to think it is true, you believe anything that comes out that paints the Cardinals organization in a poor light.

The point is you keep say 'if it is true', you don't really mean that, you believe it is true and you then proceed to talk based on that assumption being accurate.

The fact that it might not be true never is a consideration

so, moderators can call people names (hater), put words and thoughts into people's mouths and they can accuse people of being liars. good to know.