Cardinals not paying Pace's salary

[clif]

It's not just me that sees this team as cheap.

It's about 50 years of history proving it's a culture of cheapness. It's not opinion it's fact.

Now if they'd have spent themselves silly relative to the other teams in the league and then still failed it wouldn't be because they are cheap. That's not something we have to debate though because it is in fact not true.

Bidwill is legendary in his cheapness, Dan Dierdorf has some hilarious stories of how cheap he actual can be.

I firmly believe that Michael wants to change that and I also firmly believe it's still embedded in their culture to be that way.

I believe they are trying to change, so if you are reading this as a same old same old arguement you have it wrong.

It dosen't mean that cheapness beast is all the way dead though, I think it still shows up in some things they do and if they really want to change it they are going to have to go the extra mile to change it.

So you think that the team should have paid the guy for lying just to save face in the public perception? That doesn't make good business sense to me as others have alluded to... he was not a marquee player and given his past.. he should have known not to lie about it.

 

[Russ Smith]

So you think that the team should have paid the guy for lying just to save face in the public perception? That doesn't make good business sense to me as others have alluded to... he was not a marquee player and given his past.. he should have known not to lie about it.

Assume for a second that what LV wrote is the honest truth, Pace's buddy attacks him, he defends himself, they both go through a window. Can't you see that even a reasonable person might think you know I don't want my childhood friend to go to jail over this?

 

[conraddobler]

So you think that the team should have paid the guy for lying just to save face in the public perception? That doesn't make good business sense to me as others have alluded to... he was not a marquee player and given his past.. he should have known not to lie about it.

How bout publicly stating you never bought his story, cut him when you can and let him keep more than you could have taken away.

I love how everyone takes the ultimate uber power trip on this. Of course that's easy to do and they are in the right but that dosen't do you any good when you are dealing with a largely spoiled I get what I want crowd that serves as your employee base.

It's a balancing act and being right is not going to win you games.

Teams put up with tons more than this just to try and balance it out. Some teams go too far down that road and let the players start running the team. The Vikes are a good example of this.

Teams that never go down that road get to look like the Arizona Cardinals..

We don't put up with that kind of stuff around HERE!!!

But being 2-16 well that's just the breaks!

 

[clif]

Assume for a second that what LV wrote is the honest truth, Pace's buddy attacks him, he defends himself, they both go through a window. Can't you see that even a reasonable person might think you know I don't want my childhood friend to go to jail over this?

Sure it is honerable, but it begs the question.. why did he lie to the cards about it. How is lying to them protecting this 'friend'? I asked earlier was this an accident or was he attacked? Which is it? If an accident then why lie? If he was truely attacked why protect?

 

[NEZCardsfan]

Assume for a second that what LV wrote is the honest truth, Pace's buddy attacks him, he defends himself, they both go through a window. Can't you see that even a reasonable person might think you know I don't want my childhood friend to go to jail over this?

Or maybe he didn't want to press charges because an investigation would have turned up drugs and other such illegal activities.

Anyway you slice this, Pace was putting himself in a position that was detrimental to himself, and the team.

Sorry, football is a business.

 

[conraddobler]

Or maybe he didn't want to press charges because an investigation would have turned up drugs and other such illegal activities.

Anyway you slice this, Pace was putting himself in a position that was detrimental to himself, and the team.

Sorry, football is a business.

Yep it is and any way you measure it, our way of doing things sucks.

Attendance, win loss, money making.

So forgive me if my business sense tells me they may have handled this wrong.

Heck I could almost just take the opposite position of everything they do and come up with a Constanza like Super Bowl victory.

 

[clif]

How bout publicly stating you never bought his story, cut him when you can and let him keep more than you could have taken away.

I love how everyone takes the ultimate uber power trip on this. Of course that's easy to do and they are in the right but that dosen't do you any good when you are dealing with a largely spoiled I get what I want crowd that serves as your employee base.

It's a balancing act and being right is not going to win you games.

Teams put up with tons more than this just to try and balance it out. Some teams go too far down that road and let the players start running the team. The Vikes are a good example of this.

Teams that never go down that road get to look like the Arizona Cardinals..

We don't put up with that kind of stuff around HERE!!!

But being 2-16 well that's just the breaks!

Sorry it's been slow for the last couple of weeks.. so this topic probably is getting more pub than it probably deserves.

I get your view I just don't agree with it. Its easy for people to say what others should do with their money so of course you could say hey go ahead and give him that money even though in the back of everyone's mind something fishy was going on. My sticking point is the lie. Why did he lie? Did his agent suggest this? I mean if he didn't want to press charges that is perfectly fine, and I believe it would have been his right to not press charges without making up some lame story. The cards aren't the police so why would he feel the need to protect his friend from them?

 

[joeshmo]

But being 2-16 well that's just the breaks!

Jeez, we suck so bad that we loss 2 more games then actually allowed in a 16 game season.

2+16 = 18 games.

 

[Pariah]

It is fair, it's just the pro rated portion, it isn't like they are rescinding the whole thing.

I understand the "fairness." That's not what bothers me. Whether or not this is a "cheap" move isn't the point--the point is that sometimes perception is reality.

We need to change our perception, IMO, and this would have been an opportunity to do something about it.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I actually don't like this move regardless of Pace will be here next year or not. It's a paltry sum in the scheme of things for the Cardinals, so they must be doing it to send a message: Don't F with us.

Personally, I don't think that's a message a team like the Cardinals should be sending. They should continue to pay him his salary, let him have his bonus and tell him--"you get better, rehab your ass off and we'll talk in the offseason." That sends message, too: We're an organization that cares about its players.

Which message is going to be more attractive to FAs like Hutchinson in the offseason?

Thats the view I am taking. I mean this amount of money is not much in the big scheme of things and I can tell you Pace wont be back next year!

Oh and for the record, he came clean about the incident prior to the Cards "finding out". Granted with a police report being filed etc there wasnt much chance they wouldnt find out anyway.

 

[Russ Smith]

Sure it is honerable, but it begs the question.. why did he lie to the cards about it. How is lying to them protecting this 'friend'? I asked earlier was this an accident or was he attacked? Which is it? If an accident then why lie? If he was truely attacked why protect?

Maybe he didn't know at the time a police report had been filed ?

I don't know, all I'm saying is just like millions of battered wives refuse to press charges against their husband when it's obvious to everyone else they should, it's conceivable that Pace's actions were about protecting his friend, not lying to the Cards to protect his money.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Originally Posted by clif
Sure it is honerable, but it begs the question.. why did he lie to the cards about it. How is lying to them protecting this 'friend'? I asked earlier was this an accident or was he attacked? Which is it? If an accident then why lie? If he was truely attacked why protect

If it was an accident, why was there a police report in the first place?

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Sorry it's been slow for the last couple of weeks.. so this topic probably is getting more pub than it probably deserves.

I get your view I just don't agree with it. Its easy for people to say what others should do with their money so of course you could say hey go ahead and give him that money even though in the back of everyone's mind something fishy was going on. My sticking point is the lie. Why did he lie? Did his agent suggest this? I mean if he didn't want to press charges that is perfectly fine, and I believe it would have been his right to not press charges without making up some lame story. The cards aren't the police so why would he feel the need to protect his friend from them?

He lied to protect his friend. He couldnt very well tell the police that nothing happened and turn around and tell the Cards it was his friends fault for attacking him. When it is all said and done he realized that since he told the police the truth there would be no way the Cards wouldnt find out. Regardless, it was a lie. He lied, he knows it was wrong and now the lie will cost him money and he will not be back w/the cards next year.

EDIT; Also keep in mind he severed an artery in his arm so the first thing was to get him to the hospital.

 

[Russ Smith]

If it was an accident, why was there a police report in the first place?

IIRC a neighbor heard glass breaking and called the police, they went through a plate glass window so it's fairly plausible that neighbors heard and called the police.

At that point the police presumably did their CSI bit and determined this was not a case of 2 old friends hugging each other, tripping over Brian Griese's dog, and falling through a window. So they took a report.

 

[clif]

Maybe he didn't know at the time a police report had been filed ?

I don't know, all I'm saying is just like millions of battered wives refuse to press charges against their husband when it's obvious to everyone else they should, it's conceivable that Pace's actions were about protecting his friend, not lying to the Cards to protect his money.

Again I am not saying he lied to protect his money. I wouldn't know. It seems more likely he was protecting his friend, but why? Why protect someone that pushed you through a window? I keep harping on that because LV said he was "attacked".

 

[clif]

He lied to protect his friend. He couldnt very well tell the police that nothing happened and turn around and tell the Cards it was his friends fault for attacking him. When it is all said and done he realized that since he told the police the truth there would be no way the Cards wouldnt find out. Regardless, it was a lie. He lied, he knows it was wrong and now the lie will cost him money and he will not be back w/the cards next year.

EDIT; Also keep in mind he severed an artery in his arm so the first thing was to get him to the hospital.

Was it an accident or was he attacked? Was there intent to do harm by this friend or were they just playing around?

 

[Big D]

This is the smartest move the organization has made all year. You have to take his money. You can't just let guys hurt the team, and hurt themselves and not face serious repercussions. In Pace's case, he had already been demoted, and was actually deactivated last year, other than cutting him, what more can the team do to send a message to this guy to get his act together?

 

[Sandan]

I believe they are trying to change, so if you are reading this as a same old same old arguement you have it wrong.

I think I understand and I don't mean to be too contentious but then try not to work in the 'Bidwill is cheap' with almost every post.

I know that this has been a problem in the past, you are 100% correct but let's not tar MB with the same brush as BB Snr just yet.

 

[Sandan]

Assume for a second that what LV wrote is the honest truth, Pace's buddy attacks him, he defends himself, they both go through a window. Can't you see that even a reasonable person might think you know I don't want my childhood friend to go to jail over this?

Then that is the first thing you tell the Cardinals when they ask.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Again I am not saying he lied to protect his money. I wouldn't know. It seems more likely he was protecting his friend, but why? Why protect someone that pushed you through a window? I keep harping on that because LV said he was "attacked".

Yeah it isnt fair to get into the "attacked" part. Suffice to say he was attacked in the apartment after some razzing that Pace was "cheap"....It wasnot malicious at first but turned that way as tempers flared and party two attacked party one. Party one defending himself and bracing himself against a window went through said window. lots of blood.

At that point, seeing as how serious the situation was, the confrontation ended. It was not suppose to have escalated like that. When police came Party one said it was an accident (party two btw, had some previous law enforcement issues) to protect his friend from possible trouble. Party one went to hospital during which time party two fessed up to incident and a police report was filed.

Party one lied to his employer to keep his friend protected. When party one found out about police report and that party two revelaed the truth, party one fessed up to the real story to his employer, PRIOR (for whatever it is worth) to party one's employer finding out true story....

that clear it up??

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Then that is the first thing you tell the Cardinals when they ask.

And Pace will tell you the same thing.....Bad move lieing. But to be clear it was doen to protect his friend fwiw

 

[clif]

And Pace will tell you the same thing.....Bad move lieing. But to be clear it was doen to protect his friend fwiw

And that my friend is the crux of the problem IMO. Forget for a moment this one incident. By its self it would have been a non issue, but I think it points to a bigger problem. The kid has made some poor judgements in the past and this is just another example that points to a pattern. His ill advised comments last year about not knowing what is expected of him.. not working out with the team.. and now this. It just shows as proof that he doesn't have his priorities in the right place. Right or wrong it does not look good on him.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

The kid has made some poor judgements in the past and this is just another example that points to a pattern. His ill advised comments last year about not knowing what is expected of him.. not working out with the team.. and now this. It just shows as proof that he doesn't have his priorities in the right place. Right or wrong it does not look good on him.

He didint work out with the team for a total of 1 week according to Jim O. He then showed up and began working out and adding 15lbs to his frame. He, according to Green, worked his but off this year and also worked at multiple positions thus allowing the team to release Zellner and absorbing the King injury.

This was a kid who played on a broken leg in a bowl game his senior year and was defensive captain at Wake two years running. I dont think you can say he doesnt have his priorities in the right place. You can argue all day long he is overrated, drafted too high etc, but I fdont agree that he isnt focused on what he needs to do.

 

[Assface]

Signing bonus and his contract are 2 seperate entities.

Signing bonus=just that, a payment made to sign his contract. He's already fulfilled that. No matter what he's already met the stipulations for his signing bonus. Now, if he did something to "unsign" his name, ala Ricky Williams, then they should get the bonus back. Otherwise it's untouchable.

Regular salary=this is where they can freely withhold payments. This contract is for him to be on the field and participating in football like activities. Since he's not playing he's not living up to his end of the contract, therefore freeing the team from their obligation to pay him.

This is why signing bonuses are considered gauranteed money. That payment is for nothing other than writing your name on the dotted line. Once you've done that you've earned that money, period.

 

[clif]

He didint work out with the team for a total of 1 week according to Jim O. He then showed up and began working out and adding 15lbs to his frame. He, according to Green, worked his but off this year and also worked at multiple positions thus allowing the team to release Zellner and absorbing the King injury.

This was a kid who played on a broken leg in a bowl game his senior year and was defensive captain at Wake two years running. I dont think you can say he doesnt have his priorities in the right place. You can argue all day long he is overrated, drafted too high etc, but I fdont agree that he isnt focused on what he needs to do.

Look, I don't want it to seem like I have a personal thing against him. I can see from your insight that this is a little more personal for you as you may know him on that level. I personally like Pace and the abilities he brings to the table. You have to admit that he has not always portrayed the right attitude while he has been a cardinal. I can't comment on his days at Wake, because I didn't follow him then.

As for the missing time working out, I was talking about last year. I agree that he seemed to be getting his stuff worked out this year, but this incident just wreaks of a bigger problem and that is a pattern of not always making the right decision. It is unfortunate, but there is a pattern developing.