Cardinals not paying Pace's salary

[Ryanwb]

Does your boss typically give you money before you've earned it?

No, but my salary is not structured like an NFL player. They get a signing "bonus" and that money is factored into their yearly salary. They pay taxes on their bonus because it is income, so are the Cardinals going to refund that portion that he had to pay out in taxes?

Bottom line: It was money the Cardinals gave him freely. I don't think they have the right to take it back

 

[earthsci]

I don't think they have the right to take it back

I think that they have the right to. I just don't think that they should.

 

[Russ Smith]

As I have said I don't have a problem with it per se.

The only issue about it is if we are going farther than a normal team would in the same situation then we take the legit risk that other players will note it and file it away for later thought if they happen to have a chance of landing here.

My take exactly. Near as I can recall Cleveland did NOT take back bonus from K2, who clearly violated his contract and did not just have an accident he was by all reports being a complete jackass stunt riding before he was really capable of riding the motorcycle. That he got hurt was inevitable given what he was doing at his novice skill level.

Cleveland didn't want to get a reputation as not being player friendly, they want K2 to be a big part of their future, so they chose to let it slide this time.

 

[conraddobler]

I would get fired and I've seen it happen. Pace didn't show up drunk. Without knowing the whole story and going on what we've been told, it seems too much to me. Now if Pace was pounding beers right before the accident maybe I feel differently, if Pace was playing mumblypeg with a Rambo knife and cut himself I feel differently. All I can go in is what I've read and heard and that is alcohol was not involved. If it was, by all means withold the bonus.

Winslow specifically violated a clause in his contract about riding a motorcyle, he deserved to lose his bonus (and I believe Cleveland didn't actually take it back they considered it but opted to let him keep it), I don't think Calvin was violating a specific clause, it was an accident. A stupid one for sure, but an accident.

That's a perfect example, they could have but they didn't.

If you take every single opportunity to get your money back then don't chirp and moan about being called cheap.

You are what you are, you may be in the right but don't whine and wonder why people say you're are cheap when that's exactly how you act relative to your peers.

 

[Sandan]

They're going to fire your ass, not take away money they've already given you

They might if I had a up front bonus that clauses about professional behaviour in it

 

[Sandan]

I would get fired and I've seen it happen. Pace didn't show up drunk.

Russ, I know that.

I was trying to come up with an analogy that made sense.

The point was that his body [in large part] is what he brings to the table along with experience. In our cases few of us have such a responsiblity.

I think I heard the military does

 

[Russ Smith]

Believe me I think what happened was stupid and careless, but based on the info we have, it was probably a fluke accident.

Now who knows, maybe Pace is one of those guys who's always horsing around with others and this was something he'd been warned about already, I don't know.

 

[Sandan]

Again, they have every right I assume to do what they did, but that dosen't mean it had to be done that way or that it should.

Wrong.

They sure did go after the bonus money. Howver as Winslow was not a marginal player they also gave him a chance to earn most of it it back but with significant strings attached.

Utterly different.

That is more than fair, sends the signal you won't tolerate it but also says you aren't a cheapskate taking every chance to get your money back.

The problem is that this that you see the Cardinals as Cheapskates. It comes across in most of your posts, so of course you think this way. And like I said you are wrong big time about Winslow's bonus

 

[Sandan]

Believe me I think what happened was stupid and careless, but based on the info we have, it was probably a fluke accident.

Now who knows, maybe Pace is one of those guys who's always horsing around with others and this was something he'd been warned about already, I don't know.

Exactly, you [and we] don't know but the default here is 'Cardinals are cheap'

 

[joeshmo]

Bottom line: It was money the Cardinals gave him freely. I don't think they have the right to take it back

No. Its, "in good faith" money. Follow your contract and we wont ask for it back.

Its just like buying something. You paid for it already but if it breaks to easily you ask for the money back.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Russ, I know that.

I was trying to come up with an analogy that made sense.

The point was that his body [in large part] is what he brings to the table along with experience. In our cases few of us have such a responsiblity.

I think I heard the military does

He didnt show up drunk and by all accounts, and the news I have, he wasnt drinking at all. I also will tell you that he absolutly lied about what happened at first and he shouldnt have.

He was also scared though b/c the "wrestling match" was more than that. He was attacked...and was defending himself and didnt press charges coz the dude was his friend from way back.

Thats all I am willing to say except that you are way off base Nidan on this one as Pace was not drunk or acting reckless.

 

[clif]

He didnt show up drunk and by all accounts, and the news I have, he wasnt drinking at all. I also will tell you that he absolutly lied about what happened at first and he shouldnt have.

He was also scared though b/c the "wrestling match" was more than that. He was attacked...and was defending himself and didnt press charges coz the dude was his friend from way back.

Thats all I am willing to say except that you are way off base Nidan on this one as Pace was not drunk or acting reckless.

So that just leads me to beleive he is even dumber than before. Why do you not press charges against someone (no matter who it is) that attacks you and potentially ends your career and then lie about it to your employer? Who is he protecting? Himself or some so called friend?

 

[joeshmo]

My take exactly. Near as I can recall Cleveland did NOT take back bonus from K2, who clearly violated his contract and did not just have an accident he was by all reports being a complete jackass stunt riding before he was really capable of riding the motorcycle. That he got hurt was inevitable given what he was doing at his novice skill level.

Cleveland didn't want to get a reputation as not being player friendly, they want K2 to be a big part of their future, so they chose to let it slide this time.

Winslow is a bad example IMO. He is deemed as a future piece to their puzzle and a recent top 10 pick. Pace is none of those things.

Plus the Browns did get back some of the money they gave him. They just did it a little differently since he is a important future peice of their team.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/4975866

FOXSports.com has learned the Browns and Winslow have agreed to terms on a new deal that includes a one-year extension and several incentives to recoup much — but not all — of the bonus money he lost due to injuries sustained in a motorcycle accident.
The contract has not been signed yet as the two sides still need to "dot the I's and cross the T's" according to league sources, but the numbers and just about all of the language has been agreed upon by both parties.

The new deal calls for his contract to run through 2010 and also stipulates that he'll lose out on nearly $1 million in bonus money even if he's a perfect soldier from this point on. He was due a bonus of $950,000 on Dec. 15 but will now forfeit that money.

Another bonus of $2 million that was withheld can be earned back by playing a certain amount of time over the next three seasons, provided he passes his physical. If Winslow were not able to return due to the extensive injuries sustained in his off-season motorcycle crash, he would not make back his money. However, if he were to return in time for camp next year and pass his physical at the start of training camp, he would earn another large bonus back. This bonus could also be tied to some additional provisions.

The team wanted to ensure that they got an additional year out of the deal, as they lost a year due to this injury. While the contract makes both sides happy, the deal could not be completely penalty free. The additional year added — as well as the loss of the $950,000 bonus — in essence hold Winslow accountable for his mistake.

Finally it isnt like they are asking for everything back. They are only asking for pay for games missed, that is all. This also happens far more often then one might think but the media only grabs a hold of it when its a big name. Pace is still reletively a big name being a first rounder and all.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

So that just leads me to beleive he is even dumber than before. Why do you not press charges against someone (no matter who it is) that attacks you and potentially ends your career and then lie about it to your employer? Who is he protecting? Himself or some so called friend?

Well you can believe he is dumb. I wont get in your way. I can see why he did it. His mistake was to lie about it. The lie wasnt to protect his money but to protect a childhood friend. I doubt in the heat of the moment while the Cops were at his apartment questioning him that he thought about the money. It was more about protecting his friend from prosecution.

 

[Russ Smith]

Wrong.

They sure did go after the bonus money. Howver as Winslow was not a marginal player they also gave him a chance to earn most of it it back but with significant strings attached.

Utterly different.



The problem is that this that you see the Cardinals as Cheapskates. It comes across in most of your posts, so of course you think this way. And like I said you are wrong big time about Winslow's bonus

Winslow was signed to an extension that gave him the chance to recoup most of the money he lost in bonus. And again, he completely violated his contract it said right there no riding motorcycles, not to mention how reckless he was being.

In this case maybe the Cards will do the same with Pace, hey you screwed up but we still want you around so we'll give you a chance to recoup the money?

 

[clif]

Well you can believe he is dumb. I wont get in your way. I can see why he did it. His mistake was to lie about it. The lie wasnt to protect his money but to protect a childhood friend. I doubt in the heat of the moment while the Cops were at his apartment questioning him that he thought about the money. It was more about protecting his friend from prosecution.

I'm not saying protect his money. You said he was attacked by a childhood friend. What kind of 'friend' attacks you so severly that you require surgery on your arm?

Why is he protecting this person? Was it truely an accident? I don't expect you to answer these questions. I'm just simply throwing these out as questions I would have asked if I was Cards management. If he was not forth right in what happened, then I think the cards did the right thing.

 

[Russ Smith]

Finally it isnt like they are asking for everything back. They are only asking for pay for games missed, that is all. This also happens far more often then one might think but the media only grabs a hold of it when its a big name. Pace is still reletively a big name being a first rounder and all.

So are the Cards asking for a portion of Pace's signing bonus back, or a roster bonus?

It sounds like we're asking for part of his signing bonus, and what is a signing bonus for, signing?

 

[NEZCardsfan]

So are the Cards asking for a portion of Pace's signing bonus back, or a roster bonus?

It sounds like we're asking for part of his signing bonus, and what is a signing bonus for, signing?

It seems to me that the term "signing bonus" is getting thrown around way too much in the NFL.

When we give a signing bonus at work.....it is usually to a college grad so that he can afford to fly out here to live and put a down payment on an apartment.

In the NFL.....it seems like it is nothing more than a portion of your contract, paid to you up front, in hopes that you fulfill your contract.

 

[joeshmo]

It sounds like we're asking for part of his signing bonus, and what is a signing bonus for, signing?

They are asking for a prorated protion of the contract about 10 games worth.

Again, signing bonus is not gauranteed, there is no such thing. It is a "good faith" up front money of which the team will not ask for back if the contract parameters are not brocken.

 

[joeshmo]

In the NFL.....it seems like it is nothing more than a portion of your contract, paid to you up front, in hopes that you fulfill your contract.

Ding, Ding, Ding.

 

[Sandan]

He didnt show up drunk and by all accounts, and the news I have, he wasnt drinking at all.

I know that, I never said he did or suggested he was drunk.

I was trying to come up with an analogy for Russ, geeze.

 

[Sandan]

Winslow was signed to an extension that gave him the chance to recoup most of the money he lost in bonus. And again, he completely violated his contract it said right there no riding motorcycles, not to mention how reckless he was being.

In this case maybe the Cards will do the same with Pace, hey you screwed up but we still want you around so we'll give you a chance to recoup the money?

We are [now] saying the same thing, the difference being Pace was marginal Winslow is not

 

[Pariah]

I actually don't like this move regardless of Pace will be here next year or not. It's a paltry sum in the scheme of things for the Cardinals, so they must be doing it to send a message: Don't F with us.

Personally, I don't think that's a message a team like the Cardinals should be sending. They should continue to pay him his salary, let him have his bonus and tell him--"you get better, rehab your ass off and we'll talk in the offseason." That sends message, too: We're an organization that cares about its players.

Which message is going to be more attractive to FAs like Hutchinson in the offseason?

 

[conraddobler]

Wrong.

They sure did go after the bonus money. Howver as Winslow was not a marginal player they also gave him a chance to earn most of it it back but with significant strings attached.

Utterly different.



The problem is that this that you see the Cardinals as Cheapskates. It comes across in most of your posts, so of course you think this way. And like I said you are wrong big time about Winslow's bonus

It's not just me that sees this team as cheap.

It's about 50 years of history proving it's a culture of cheapness. It's not opinion it's fact.

Now if they'd have spent themselves silly relative to the other teams in the league and then still failed it wouldn't be because they are cheap. That's not something we have to debate though because it is in fact not true.

Bidwill is legendary in his cheapness, Dan Dierdorf has some hilarious stories of how cheap he actual can be.

I firmly believe that Michael wants to change that and I also firmly believe it's still embedded in their culture to be that way.

I believe they are trying to change, so if you are reading this as a same old same old arguement you have it wrong.

It dosen't mean that cheapness beast is all the way dead though, I think it still shows up in some things they do and if they really want to change it they are going to have to go the extra mile to change it.

 

[NEZCardsfan]

I actually don't like this move regardless of Pace will be here next year or not. It's a paltry sum in the scheme of things for the Cardinals, so they must be doing it to send a message: Don't F with us.

Personally, I don't think that's a message a team like the Cardinals should be sending. They should continue to pay him his salary, let him have his bonus and tell him--"you get better, rehab your ass off and we'll talk in the offseason." That sends message, too: We're an organization that cares about its players.

Which message is going to be more attractive to FAs like Hutchinson in the offseason?

I actually believe the opposite. I think the Cardinals HAVE to deal with Pace this way.

Why send the message to FAs that you can come here, act unprofessional, and still get paid. It is fair, it's just the pro rated portion, it isn't like they are rescinding the whole thing.