"Cards' secondary has potential for greatness"

[Cheesebeef]

Hey Cheese, please list knee injuries that haven't scared them.

broken bones and regular ACLs?

 

[BigRedRage]

Hey Cheese, please list knee injuries that haven't scared them.

scratches, bruises, upurassitus

 

[TJ]

I don't know about Gimme's detailed knowledge of human anatomy, but I trust my father and my best friend, one of which has been a pretty well respected orthopod for years and another who's been an orthopod at the Mayo Clinic for the last six years and when both of those guys (who are die hard Cards fans and have had season tickets since the Cards moved to Phoenix) tell me what they think of his injury and how it should be handled, I give them the benefit of the doubt...especially when they've not only been right about guys like Beanie, Wadsworth, Swann and Ryan Williams, but the team has gotten those injuries and their rehab wrong in the past.



that's the reason I'm most skeptical here. I (and they) hope to be proven wrong, but I remember a lot of people laughing in my face when I said Williams would likely never be the same. Again, hope I'm wrong here, but I don't want to see HB suffer the same fate.

Unless your friend and dad have detailed knowledge about HB's particular situation, I'm going to defer to those who are in the know. It's easy to go to doctors and ask, "hey, Player X has this injury. What can We expect for recovery?" But they don't know the degree of damage to his knee or his progress through rehab. It's a lot more complex than what you're trying to assert. And Gimmie's response that he should sit out for the year is nonsensical.

 

[BigRedRage]

i think we should sit fitz, pp21, hb and juke this year and save them all for next year.

 

[juza76]

i think we should sit fitz, pp21, hb and juke this year and save them all for next year.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Unless your friend and dad have detailed knowledge about HB's particular situation, I'm going to defer to those who are in the know. It's easy to go to doctors and ask, "hey, Player X has this injury. What can We expect for recovery?" But they don't know the degree of damage to his knee or his progress through rehab. It's a lot more complex than what you're trying to assert. And Gimmie's response that he should sit out for the year is nonsensical.

I'm not "asserting" anything. just stating my fears based on their experience (not just as doctors, but as doctors who specifically work on these exact same type of injuries for decades) and my own past experience watching this team rush people back on the field who aren't ready.

 

[52brandon]

I don't expect the badger back to his old ways this season.

Having been through an ACL during my playing days (no not NFL) I can tell you...

how long ago though? And I'm not saying this to be a smartass if it comes across that way. Medical advancements, especially on this particular surgery due to the amount of money on the line, have come along amazingly in the past decade. Adrian Peterson's recovery and subsequent performance were unreal. He may just be the exception, but he may be an indication of the improvements. I hope it's the latter...

Cards secondary has as much a chance to be medicore as well as great. Is AC's hip fully recovered? Will DB fit in as an enforcer SS or will we see more TEs scoring TDs over the SS position?

TM needs to sit. Period. He needs to be out for the YEAR. Hope the medical staff and the Cards mgmt/coaching know better than to risk his NFL career by putting him on the field before he is fully healed. Even if he himself is the one pushing to get on the field. ARZ Cardinal is right in regards to recovery. We saw RGIII give it a try last year and we saw his play really suffer. For TM, it was not just a MCL but LCL as well. His whole game is based on his quick cut and reaction ability---without that he is an undersized DB with average speed.

Time for Bethel to move into a bigger role as a DB. He has the speed---does he have the moves to play the slot/FS role that TM played last year? Jefferson and Johnson stepped up with TM out in our win vs. Seattle. Time for them to do it again

you really think we could easily be mediocre? I don't see any area where we didn't improve aside from ILB. So it's hard for me to imagine that we get any more than just slightly worse. Also, like I said in my OP. I think our O improvements will give our guys needed rest and result in improved performance from everybody we have. I thought Johnson really improved 2 years ago, and last year was just more of that. Jefferson impressed me though, he came out of nowhere. I'd like to see Bethel prove to be good enough to play a good amount on D. But he's so important to us on ST that I give his ability to play there the priority

I think Washington is a superstar, but I think you devalue the impact those two guys made last year. They helped take a good defense the year before and their additions (along with the studs we already had) took the defense up another notch.

I think the performance across the board was better last year. There was a lot of energy and a never-say-die attitude that was an impact on our record. Maybe Mathieu gets a lot of that credit, because that attitude wasn't any more apparent than on his forced fumble in game 1 on the goal line. I think he'll be back healthy though. He's a smart kid. I think he's doing everything right rehabbing it and wont push himself to start if he can't. But I do believe he's doing everything and more to be as ready as humanly possible

 

[GimmedaBall]

Unless your friend and dad have detailed knowledge about HB's particular situation, I'm going to defer to those who are in the know. It's easy to go to doctors and ask, "hey, Player X has this injury. What can We expect for recovery?" But they don't know the degree of damage to his knee or his progress through rehab. It's a lot more complex than what you're trying to assert. And Gimmie's response that he should sit out for the year is nonsensical.

I see you didn't bother to read the medical studies I provided that discusses recovery from ACL. There is nothing nonsensical there should you invest the effort to read and understand them.

Cheesebeef is correct---TM had additional damage besides the ACL so his recovery needs to be extended even beyond that for an ACL alone.

You want to put all your faith in the team doctors? The ones who are getting paid by the team to get the players back on the field? Hopefully we don't have the same team doctor that kept RGIII on the field when he could barely hobble around.

 

[GimmedaBall]

i think we should sit fitz, pp21, hb and juke this year and save them all for next year.

Did they all have an injury last December that takes at least one year minimum to rehab and recover from?

 

[GimmedaBall]

An ACL alone ends the career for 20% of the NFL players who suffer the injury. Even when a player gets field, they are only about 60% of what they were prior to the injury. 55% of those who return from an ACL are out of the league in two years.

If you really want TM to have his best chance to fully rehab and play the way we saw last season, you will want him to sit out this year. His game is based on his instincts and quickness---he needs a fully recovered knee to be the player we enjoyed. If you don't believe me or Cheesebeef, read the medical studies for yourself----and then post.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You want to put all your faith in the team doctors? The ones who are getting paid by the team to get the players back on the field? Hopefully we don't have the same team doctor that kept RGIII on the field when he could barely hobble around.

this is what I find to be one of the most confusing things about people putting trust in NFL Doctors. They're paid and pushed to get guys back on the field as soon as possible. I think it's a little naive to think the latest lawsuit the NFL is facing from guys about painkillers and the like is much ado about nothing. Now, I don't necessarily agree with the players getting paid because the doctors said they could play and would shoot them up with painkillers because those guys all KNOW the risks they're taking when they do whatever they can to get on the field, but do I believe these guys are repeatedly pressured to get back on the field (either from the team or pressure from within themselves for fear of losing a job) and it can have serious long-term effects.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

not sure if I totally agree with the analogy. in this analogy, the dog already has cancer and him playing hoping he'll be okay is like saying it's okay to smoke until his cancer gets worse. maybe not the best analogy seeing as dogs can't smoke and a variety of other reasons,

Ha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAH-YAhkU9M

 

[GimmedaBall]

. . .you really think we could easily be mediocre? I don't see any area where we didn't improve aside from ILB. So it's hard for me to imagine that we get any more than just slightly worse. Also, like I said in my OP. I think our O improvements will give our guys needed rest and result in improved performance from everybody we have. I thought Johnson really improved 2 years ago, and last year was just more of that. Jefferson impressed me though, he came out of nowhere. I'd like to see Bethel prove to be good enough to play a good amount on D. But he's so important to us on ST that I give his ability to play there the priority

I think the performance across the board was better last year. There was a lot of energy and a never-say-die attitude that was an impact on our record. Maybe Mathieu gets a lot of that credit, because that attitude wasn't any more apparent than on his forced fumble in game 1 on the goal line. I think he'll be back healthy though. He's a smart kid. I think he's doing everything right rehabbing it and wont push himself to start if he can't. But I do believe he's doing everything and more to be as ready as humanly possible

There are a lot of 'ifs' that have to happen to make our secondary great. If Cro is fully recovered from the hip . . . if DBuc can cover TEs in the middle and be the enforcer at the backend of the D . . . if we can replace TM's play while he heals . . . if our ILB can provide middle-of-the field pass coverage. I'm a Card fan and want to answer that all the 'Ifs' are covered and we will have a great secondary. Our really big improvement on D last season was in stopping the run----IF we can get the secondary to handle the passing game . . . yes, it wil be Great!

 

[Duckjake]

We had our best defensive performance without HB in Seattle. The key is the underatted Dline and Washington. honey badger wasn't the reason we were #1 against the run and you see Dansby magically became a stud around Game 5 which coincided with Washington's return.

I actually think Wash is underatted by this board. He is by far the most indespensible player on defense for us. We go from average to elite with him. Here's hoping his suspension is only a game or 2

Dansby was a stud in the NFL when Washington was still in High School. Washington didn't magically make anyone any better. Replacing a Jasper Brinckley with a Daryl Washington would make any defense better . No magic to it.

 

[TJ]

I see you didn't bother to read the medical studies I provided that discusses recovery from ACL. There is nothing nonsensical there should you invest the effort to read and understand them.

Cheesebeef is correct---TM had additional damage besides the ACL so his recovery needs to be extended even beyond that for an ACL alone.

You want to put all your faith in the team doctors? The ones who are getting paid by the team to get the players back on the field? Hopefully we don't have the same team doctor that kept RGIII on the field when he could barely hobble around.

I'm familiar with the research. Probably more so than you. I've actually had to write about sports injuries, particularly those in the knees, as part of my Master's program, rather than pick-and-choose words in a futile effort to further an argument. Wanna lecture me on time invested, again?

And yes, I'll put my faith in the doctors who are licensed professionals and are qualified enough to work for one of 32 NFL teams. After all, they know more than any of us on HB's current condition.

 

[desertdawg]

I'm familiar with the research. Probably more so than you. I've actually had to write about sports injuries, particularly those in the knees, as part of my Master's program, rather than pick-and-choose words in a futile effort to further an argument. Wanna lecture me on time invested, again?

And yes, I'll put my faith in the doctors who are licensed professionals and are qualified enough to work for one of 32 NFL teams. After all, they know more than any of us on HB's current condition.

I still think every injury and every player is different, and I'm with you in the whole letting the doctor that is seeing the patient making the call. Time lines on these things aren't as specific as some will make it out to be, two cats with the same basic injury (or injuries) can return months apart.

 

[ajcardfan]

Dansby was a stud in the NFL when Washington was still in High School. Washington didn't magically make anyone any better. Replacing a Jasper Brinckley with a Daryl Washington would make any defense better . No magic to it.

Hell yeah. No, Dansby didn't have any turnovers or sacks in the four games DWash was out, but he was still the best player we had on defense for those games. They complemented each other really well once they were on the field together. I think each benefited from the other stats wise.

 

[ajcardfan]

I'm familiar with the research. Probably more so than you. I've actually had to write about sports injuries, particularly those in the knees, as part of my Master's program, rather than pick-and-choose words in a futile effort to further an argument. Wanna lecture me on time invested, again?

And yes, I'll put my faith in the doctors who are licensed professionals and are qualified enough to work for one of 32 NFL teams. After all, they know more than any of us on HB's current condition.

Knee surgery, and rehab from knee injuries, has come one hell of a long way in the last twenty years.

One of my students, who is good enough to have colleges looking at him, blew out his knee in late September this past season. He fully participated in spring practice.

Every case is different, but if the Badger's doctors are saying he is ahead of schedule, then I do not doubt that he is. There is no benefit to the team, or the player, saying he's doing better than he actually is. All it would take is one funny step to set him back, and the doctors are under pressure to make sure the injury doesn't get worse than it already is. They won't be a team doctor for long if they keep blowing it by rushing guys back too soon and then putting them on the shelf for even longer.

 

[GimmedaBall]

I'm familiar with the research. Probably more so than you. I've actually had to write about sports injuries, particularly those in the knees, as part of my Master's program, rather than pick-and-choose words in a futile effort to further an argument. Wanna lecture me on time invested, again?

And yes, I'll put my faith in the doctors who are licensed professionals and are qualified enough to work for one of 32 NFL teams. After all, they know more than any of us on HB's current condition.

Ok, I will lecture you on time invested. I see that you still have not read the links to the medical articles I posted earlier. I was hoping your response would be in terms of the medical data and not your emotional response. There are plenty of people on this forum with degrees---so what? The degrees don't mean a thing if you don't at least stick to the science and debate the merits of the data.

Team doctors have a vested interest in getting a high-salaried player back out on the field. The doctors are employees of the team---they are not going to be on the payroll for long if they are not getting guys off the injury list and back playing. Of course they know more about HB's condtion---and if they have the player's best interst at heart they take the conservative approach and sit that player. There is a long, long list of players who were OK'd by the team doctor and went out and tried to play and lost their career and future health as a result. Do you recall RGIII consulting with the doctor along the sidelines and getting the OK to limp back onto the field?

We all want to see HB back on the field. I don't want to see him back before his time and I don't want to see that result in a career cut short.

 

[desertdawg]

Ok, I will lecture you on time invested. I see that you still have not read the links to the medical articles I posted earlier. I was hoping your response would be in terms of the medical data and not your emotional response. There are plenty of people on this forum with degrees---so what? The degrees don't mean a thing if you don't at least stick to the science and debate the merits of the data.

Team doctors have a vested interest in getting a high-salaried player back out on the field. The doctors are employees of the team---they are not going to be on the payroll for long if they are not getting guys off the injury list and back playing. Of course they know more about HB's condtion---and if they have the player's best interst at heart they take the conservative approach and sit that player. There is a long, long list of players who were OK'd by the team doctor and went out and tried to play and lost their career and future health as a result. Do you recall RGIII consulting with the doctor along the sidelines and getting the OK to limp back onto the field?

We all want to see HB back on the field. I don't want to see him back before his time and I don't want to see that result in a career cut short.

Are you even a Dr?

 

[GimmedaBall]

Knee surgery, and rehab from knee injuries, has come one hell of a long way in the last twenty years.

One of my students, who is good enough to have colleges looking at him, blew out his knee in late September this past season. He fully participated in spring practice.

Every case is different, but if the Badger's doctors are saying he is ahead of schedule, then I do not doubt that he is. There is no benefit to the team, or the player, saying he's doing better than he actually is. All it would take is one funny step to set him back, and the doctors are under pressure to make sure the injury doesn't get worse than it already is. They won't be a team doctor for long if they keep blowing it by rushing guys back too soon and then putting them on the shelf for even longer.

Agreed. A blown ACL used to be an automatic career ending injury. The surgical techniques have grown . . . but it still is high on the career-ending injuries. A lot of players would rather have a concussion over an injury to their knees.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sportsdoc/The-evolution-of-ACL-injuries.html

Of course their is a range of reaction and recovery. Not all knee injuries are equal---all the fans hear is 'Torn ACL' when a player goes down. As Cheesebeef pointed out, HB is not just dealing with an ACL. At a minimum, a pro player should be down for at least a year---that's what the research is saying. HB went out in December. Do the same for him that the team did for Jonathan Cooper---put him on the shelf with no expectations of playing this year.

We saw what happened to Ryan Williams---he was cleared by the doctor(s) looking at his MRI---but he still felt pain and stayed off the field. How well did that go over with the coaching staff?

 

[52brandon]

I see you didn't bother to read the medical studies I provided that discusses recovery from ACL. There is nothing nonsensical there should you invest the effort to read and understand them.

Cheesebeef is correct---TM had additional damage besides the ACL so his recovery needs to be extended even beyond that for an ACL alone.

You want to put all your faith in the team doctors? The ones who are getting paid by the team to get the players back on the field? Hopefully we don't have the same team doctor that kept RGIII on the field when he could barely hobble around.

FYI... RGIII's dr said he shouldn't play. His coach rushed him back out of fear for his own job. The team drs do what's best for the players, because that IS what's best for the team. RGIII waiting until the next season would have been unquestionably better for the organization. They invested so much into him, anything less than a franchise stud is a failure. By rushing him back, they decimated the chances of him attaining that status

 

[52brandon]

There are a lot of 'ifs' that have to happen to make our secondary great. If Cro is fully recovered from the hip . . . if DBuc can cover TEs in the middle and be the enforcer at the backend of the D . . . if we can replace TM's play while he heals . . . if our ILB can provide middle-of-the field pass coverage. I'm a Card fan and want to answer that all the 'Ifs' are covered and we will have a great secondary. Our really big improvement on D last season was in stopping the run----IF we can get the secondary to handle the passing game . . . yes, it wil be Great!

of course. There's a billion ifs. "If Peterson isn't hit by a meteorite", etc. It's all about calculating those ifs. I do believe Johnson and Jefferson will fill in well for Mathieu if he isn't ready to go. They wont replace him, but they'll be manageable substitutes. Bucannon is supposed to have that coverage ability according to our FO, only time will tell, but I trust in their ability to scout a player far beyond my own. Even if Cromartie isn't fully recovered from his hip, Cason is who we had at that spot last year, so that doesn't get any worse. Though I do believe Cromartie will be ready to play. And I believe he will be ready to put in work. Even with his bum hip, the guy was still a Pro Bowler last year. I whole-heartedly believe that given the risks of these ifs, our secondary will in-fact be improved come week 1. By mid-season, it will be among the most dominant

 

[ajcardfan]

Agreed. A blown ACL used to be an automatic career ending injury. The surgical techniques have grown . . . but it still is high on the career-ending injuries. A lot of players would rather have a concussion over an injury to their knees.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sportsdoc/The-evolution-of-ACL-injuries.html

Of course their is a range of reaction and recovery. Not all knee injuries are equal---all the fans hear is 'Torn ACL' when a player goes down. As Cheesebeef pointed out, HB is not just dealing with an ACL. At a minimum, a pro player should be down for at least a year---that's what the research is saying. HB went out in December. Do the same for him that the team did for Jonathan Cooper---put him on the shelf with no expectations of playing this year.

We saw what happened to Ryan Williams---he was cleared by the doctor(s) looking at his MRI---but he still felt pain and stayed off the field. How well did that go over with the coaching staff?

Hey, if his knee hurts once the season starts, I have ZERO problem with him going on IR. I just don't understand why so many fans seem willing to write him off in the Spring.

 

[TJ]

Ok, I will lecture you on time invested. I see that you still have not read the links to the medical articles I posted earlier. I was hoping your response would be in terms of the medical data and not your emotional response. There are plenty of people on this forum with degrees---so what? The degrees don't mean a thing if you don't at least stick to the science and debate the merits of the data.

Team doctors have a vested interest in getting a high-salaried player back out on the field. The doctors are employees of the team---they are not going to be on the payroll for long if they are not getting guys off the injury list and back playing. Of course they know more about HB's condtion---and if they have the player's best interst at heart they take the conservative approach and sit that player. There is a long, long list of players who were OK'd by the team doctor and went out and tried to play and lost their career and future health as a result. Do you recall RGIII consulting with the doctor along the sidelines and getting the OK to limp back onto the field?

We all want to see HB back on the field. I don't want to see him back before his time and I don't want to see that result in a career cut short.

Your articles were published in 2010, 2006, and 2005. Very old studies that don't come close to today's advances in research and surgical approaches.

And your 2010 research, which comes the closest to today's technology, uses subjects from the general population, not pro athletes who are inherently much more fit, recover from injury faster, and have the best technology, doctors, and PTs at their disposal.