Cards vs Atlanta game thread

[red desert]

I like the DC of the Jags too.

Al Saunders. Watch what he does with Washington as the season progresses.

 

[Covert Rain]

Fumbling at the 5 yard line to give the 9ers a chance in the first game
The wounded duck INT in the Seattle game where no one was around him
The St Louis game all but possibly one of the turnovers was on him
Throwing directly to a LB when staring down Boldin

Inability to throw the ball away, holding onto it for way too long, inability to take care of the ball, inability to read the defense and notice when the TE and the RB are WIDE OPEN

Do you want me to continue?

Warner is a good guy that used to be a good player. Unfortunately for him his time has passed

Were we watching the same game? There was almost no point in that game that someone from Seattle wasn't in the back field either collapsing the pocket, pushing a linemen back or chasing Kurt.

I will give you the fumble at the end of the one game. However, that doesn't begin to tell the picture of how bad this line has been. I don't agree he has been holding the ball too long. MOST of the fumbles were from break downs in protection.

It's hard to make reads when your running for your life. Matt is going to find that out over the next few weeks when his fumble and interception numbers add up. I am sure it will be Matt's fault for holding the ball too long and making bad reads too.

So please go on.

 

[conraddobler]

Al Saunders. Watch what he does with Washington as the season progresses.

Why start with a coach?

We need a GM who knows which of the hot new things are the real deal and which aren't

We need a GM who'll hash out a budget BEFORE they take the job and have it written into their contract so that the cap issue disappears for the most part.

We need a GM who knows what they are doing, this team has talent, some need to stay, some need to go and some need to be coached, a good GM needs to sort all of this out.

 

[Evil Ash]

Were we watching the same game? There was almost no point in that game that someone from Seattle wasn't in the back field either collapsing the pocket, pushing a linemen back or chasing Kurt.

I will give you the fumble at the end of the one game. However, that doesn't begin to tell the picture of how bad this line has been. I don't agree he has been holding the ball too long. MOST of the fumbles were from break downs in protection.

It's hard to make reads when your running for your life. Matt is going to find that out over the next few weeks when his fumble and interception numbers add up. I am sure it will be Matt's fault for holding the ball too long and making bad reads too.

So please go on.

The Int in the Seattle game I was referring to was when Bergen was Wide Open with no one near him. Warner threw a wounded duck that fell 10 yards short of where Bergen was. No pressure on him.

During the Rams game, he had 3 INTs and was only pressured on one of them. The fumble had zero to do with the OLine

In the game today he threw it to a LB when he wasn't pressured.

He also had problems getting rid of the ball, reading defenses, going to the TE or RB, etc

Yeah the Oline had its problems in Seattle and today in Atlanta but that doesn't explain his problems at home where the Oline did their jobs.

 

[moklerman]

So if you're going to sit there with a straight face and say that INT was a great play by a LB and not a veteran QB getting baited into a bad throw, fine, can't be bothered to argue with you anymore

I just don't think it was a case of Warner not seeing the defender and making a bad throw. The pre-snap read was likely incorrect but that isn't the issue here. In terms of their respective interceptions it's being opined that Leinart didn't do anything wrong on his play and Warner just threw it right to the defense. I don't feel that's accurate in either case.

Overall, the o-line is the problem so I don't know why there's so much dissection of this one particular pass by Warner. This will likely be a carbon copy of the 2004 Giants for the Card's this year. Leinart will have to go through some lumps but Warner isn't capable of overcoming bad o-line play, dropped passes, bad coaching, bad playcalling and his own limiations. With all of those circumstances being prevelant with the Cardinals right now, Leinart has to start playing. The team can't go anywhere now or in the future with Warner.

Until the o-line quits being blasted into the backfield by the defense though, I feel for whichever qb is back there. I don't even think this will be Warner's last action since Leinart will probably be hurt when defenses opt to punish him to see if he can take it.

 

[Covert Rain]

I just don't think it was a case of Warner not seeing the defender and making a bad throw. The pre-snap read was likely incorrect but that isn't the issue here. In terms of their respective interceptions it's being opined that Leinart didn't do anything wrong on his play and Warner just threw it right to the defense. I don't feel that's accurate in either case.

Overall, the o-line is the problem so I don't know why there's so much dissection of this one particular pass by Warner. This will likely be a carbon copy of the 2004 Giants for the Card's this year. Leinart will have to go through some lumps but Warner isn't capable of overcoming bad o-line play, dropped passes, bad coaching, bad playcalling and his own limiations. With all of those circumstances being prevelant with the Cardinals right now, Leinart has to start playing. The team can't go anywhere now or in the future with Warner.

Until the o-line quits being blasted into the backfield by the defense though, I feel for whichever qb is back there. I don't even think this will be Warner's last action since Leinart will probably be hurt when defenses opt to punish him to see if he can take it.

DING DING DING. You are correct sir. Warner has made his mistakes but the majority of them were a direct or indirect result of line play. Like I said before I want to see the Warner critics be just as critical about Matt 3 weeks from now.

 

[Russ Smith]

I just don't think it was a case of Warner not seeing the defender and making a bad throw. The pre-snap read was likely incorrect but that isn't the issue here. In terms of their respective interceptions it's being opined that Leinart didn't do anything wrong on his play and Warner just threw it right to the defense. I don't feel that's accurate in either case.

Overall, the o-line is the problem so I don't know why there's so much dissection of this one particular pass by Warner. This will likely be a carbon copy of the 2004 Giants for the Card's this year. Leinart will have to go through some lumps but Warner isn't capable of overcoming bad o-line play, dropped passes, bad coaching, bad playcalling and his own limiations. With all of those circumstances being prevelant with the Cardinals right now, Leinart has to start playing. The team can't go anywhere now or in the future with Warner.

Until the o-line quits being blasted into the backfield by the defense though, I feel for whichever qb is back there. I don't even think this will be Warner's last action since Leinart will probably be hurt when defenses opt to punish him to see if he can take it.

Because this one play completely turned the game, it was still only 15-10 when Kurt threw that pick, from that point on the rout was on.

I didn't say Matt's pick wasn't a mistake, but he didn't literally hit a defender in stride like Kurt did.

 

[moklerman]

They don't need to be as critical of Leinart and likely won't be. He's a rookie on a bad team and not much will be expected from him. Warner has played poorly but not always due to his own mistakes/limitations. The key difference is that Warner is/was expected to lead the Cardinals to the playoffs this year. Leinart will be expected to show improvement each week and no one will really care if he wins this year. Very different pressure for each guy. Warner was playing under the sword of Damoclies(sp?) all year. I don't think there are many guys who perform their best when it's understood that any mistakes will bring chants of the backup that everyone wants to see. That's why Brees was such a story in San Diego. He stepped up his game and held off the rookie...temporarily. Even after leading the Chargers to the playoffs and getting himself elected to a pro bowl, he still lost his job to an unproven guy. Warner never had a chance. He earned his benching, but he never had a chance with this team. I don't think any qb can play in fear of making a mistake. That's something else Leinart won't have. It doesn't matter if he makes a mistake, he's a rookie. Heck, some have already said it. Leinart's interception was okay, Warner's wasn't. Is it really fair to expect Warner to not make any mistakes? Before you go crazy, yes, he's made too many mistakes. But each one has been deemed inexcusable. It seems that too much responsibility is being placed on his shoulders to me. He's been disappointing but he's also being blamed for all the Cardinals' woes.

 

[Russ Smith]

They don't need to be as critical of Leinart and likely won't be. He's a rookie on a bad team and not much will be expected from him. Warner has played poorly but not always due to his own mistakes/limitations. The key difference is that Warner is/was expected to lead the Cardinals to the playoffs this year. Leinart will be expected to show improvement each week and no one will really care if he wins this year. Very different pressure for each guy. Warner was playing under the sword of Damoclies(sp?) all year. I don't think there are many guys who perform their best when it's understood that any mistakes will bring chants of the backup that everyone wants to see.

Hard to argue with that. I mean it's not like LAST WEEK we all watched a guy with a repuation for imploding who's job was on the line go out and play brilliantly against the Patriots and gain himself a probable 4 week reprieve. nope, Jake Plummer went out there and just like Kurt folded up his tent and blew his last chance to secure that job for the forseeable future.

Look, nobody wants this team to win more than I do, in no way would I cheer for Kurt to screw up. the problem is his screwups are inevitable, he's taken too many hits, he's done as a starting QB, he can probably play off the bench now and then but when he's out there week after week the hits simply add up and he falls apart. I realize he's your favorite player and it's tough to watch your hero fade away, but we've all been there and at some point you have to accept that he IS fading away.

 

[moklerman]

nope, Jake Plummer went out there and just like Kurt folded up his tent and blew his last chance to secure that job for the forseeable future.

Hey, it isn't impossible for a guy to have a good game under pressure I'm just saying it doesn't usually take long for a qb to lose his job to a highly paid rookie waiting in the wings. Jon Kitna, Billy Volek, Drew Brees, etc. are all recent examples. I don't know that I'd get too high on Plummer just yet but for now he might be okay. With that o-line and running game I think most qb's would be able to attain the lofty position of 28th ranked qb in the league though.

Warner's got problems for sure though and I don't know that he'll get any more opportunites. I pray for his sake that he takes a backup job with a solid team next year rather than these o-line project teams.

 

[Russ Smith]

Hey, it isn't impossible for a guy to have a good game under pressure I'm just saying it doesn't usually take long for a qb to lose his job to a highly paid rookie waiting in the wings. Jon Kitna, Billy Volek, Drew Brees, etc. are all recent examples. I don't know that I'd get too high on Plummer just yet but for now he might be okay. With that o-line and running game I think most qb's would be able to attain the lofty position of 28th ranked qb in the league though.

Warner's got problems for sure though and I don't know that he'll get any more opportunites. I pray for his sake that he takes a backup job with a solid team next year rather than these o-line project teams.

you've definitely got me pegged with that high on Plummer comment. My point is a guy who's notorious for melting down under pressure managed to buck up and play well when he had to, Warner in the same situation fell apart again. Why would we possibly expect any difference in the future?

Denver's OL isn't as good this year, the pass blocking hasn't been great at all, run blocking is still pretty good but the problem they had is they need the QB to do more this year, and in asking him to do it, he started turning the ball over. That's why his job is in trouble. all we need our QB to do is distribute the ball and protect it, it won't be simple because we all know the OL isn't good, but he can't just simply give it away. The pick today he had zero pressure on him, and it turned the game around. I'm not saying we win the game if he doesn't throw that pick but it was huge.

When Wilson got the pick six earlier, Wolfley said on air that it was one of those plays that can turn around a season, unfortunately, Kurt gave it back with his pick six and it probably ended his season as a starter, unless there's a trade.

you're acting like Kurt has played well and they're simply going to him because we drafted Matt and need to justify his contract, that's nonsense they WANTED Matt to sit this year, but we can't continue to put Kurt out there when he's playing this badly.

 

[moklerman]

you're acting like Kurt has played well and they're simply going to him because we drafted Matt and need to justify his contract, that's nonsense they WANTED Matt to sit this year, but we can't continue to put Kurt out there when he's playing this badly.

That's not really what I'm saying, and I agree at this point it's time to put Leinart in there. I just think Warner was in a lose/lose situation that ultimately wasn't going to end well no matter what. If he played well, a la Kitna in Cincy, he would likely have lost his job next year anyway. If he played poorly, he would lose his job even sooner. I just don't feel that his poor play is strictly because of his limitations. He's compounded the problems by making poor decisions but I feel that way more of the team's problems stem from coaching, personnel, schemes, mistakes and everything else that the Card's have done to themselves. Warner is definitely part of the problem, but I don't feel he's the only reason the Card's are losing. Replacing him won't solve all of the other problems. That's what's so disappointing to me, is how the team isn't really any better than it was last year.

The team is as healthy as it's been in two years, the players have been in the system for plenty of time now, they have a better rb, more depth on the o-line, etc. and it's just like watching last year other than Warner making more mistakes this year than last.

 

[Russ Smith]

That's not really what I'm saying, and I agree at this point it's time to put Leinart in there. I just think Warner was in a lose/lose situation that ultimately wasn't going to end well no matter what. If he played well, a la Kitna in Cincy, he would likely have lost his job next year anyway. If he played poorly, he would lose his job even sooner. I just don't feel that his poor play is strictly because of his limitations. He's compounded the problems by making poor decisions but I feel that way more of the team's problems stem from coaching, personnel, schemes, mistakes and everything else that the Card's have done to themselves. Warner is definitely part of the problem, but I don't feel he's the only reason the Card's are losing. Replacing him won't solve all of the other problems. That's what's so disappointing to me, is how the team isn't really any better than it was last year.

The team is as healthy as it's been in two years, the players have been in the system for plenty of time now, they have a better rb, more depth on the o-line, etc. and it's just like watching last year other than Warner making more mistakes this year than last.

Fair enough. My point is if you're going to lose and see tons of QB mistakes, might as well be from the QBOF, not the 35 year old guy. If there's a trade market out there for Kurt by all means look into it, I just kind of doubt a GOOD team is going to be interested in him so he'd end up in Tampa or some other team that's got a huge QB problem and a bad OL itself.

Matt will struggle at times the Bears came in a few weeks could be ugly can you imagine Step trying to block Tommie Harris or Ross block ogunleye? But we might as well get his feet wet and start the learning curve Matt is going to be a very good QB IMHO he understands the game at a different level than the average rookie.

 

[moklerman]

I think Warner's pride has hurt him more in the long run than anything else. If he was smart about the whole thing, he would have gone somewhere as a backup with the potential to start(like Chicago or Denver, etc.). He's not going to get a shot as a starter anymore but he might have a shot at a Cinderella story if an injury occurs. How ironic would it be if he went to a place like New England? I still think he's got a lot to offer behind a solid line where he can manage the game. There's just too much responsibility and punishment that he has to take in Arizona right now. Yes, he has the receivers but I don't know, as great as they are, how open they were getting today in the time that he had to throw. Even when Leinart came in in garbage time, there was no time to throw the ball even to an intermediate route.

I truly feel for Warner but at this point, it's best for him to get out of this particular lineup. It's best for the Card's as well even though there will likely be wholesale changes next year that he'll have to adjust to. Leinart will be perfect for this offense when a line can protect him. I'll still hold out hope for Warner I don't see there being many suitors out there. Maybe as a backup in Detroit next year? There are some possibilities but his "legacy" is so tarnished at this point I just don't know what to think. My three favorite players of all time: Ferragamo, Everett and Warner. Was there ever a more dubious lot?