Cards won't get Leinart

[john h]

One thing in Leinart's favor is that he's been leading a national championship team for so long and doing it with turnover at key positions. It hasn't been Bush carrying the team the past two year's and Leinart getting the credit. This year, I think Leinart's been unspectacular to say the least.

I wasn't aware of his shoulder issue so that is a good theory. It seems that most of the USC passing game is short to intermediate stuff but I don't know if that's by design or because Leinart's shoulder is bother him. I don't catch all the games but the handful I've watched this year I don't see him slinging the ball downfield with any kind of authority. For the most part, he still seems to be making good decisions which will work in his favor.

Actually, as good as the two wr's are for USC this year I don't think they're of the same caliber as in previous year's, so Leinart may be limited in what looks he's getting downfield. USC seems to stay in pro set's most of the time, no 4 and 5 receiver, run & shoot looks for the most part, so it's possible that he may be having to dump the ball off to the back's rather than force the ball downfield if there's no seperation. If that's the case, then he's learning exactly what he'll need in the NFL and his stock should stay strong. If he's just unable to get the ball to open receivers and his shoulder, knee and concussions become more of an issue then he might struggle or fail in the NFL.

All in all, I think he can be a good NFL qb if his smarts and leadership are real (rather than manufactured by the media). He has the size and strength to make it but he will need to be taken by a team that will cater to his strengths and not depend on him alone to win games. Houston drafted the face of their franchise and he's been getting killed. After all these years, the Texans still don't have a good line. Now, Carr isn't the untouchable icon that he once was. But, if the Texans lay the blame on him, they'll be falling into the same trap that the Cardinals have.

I think Carr has been sacked around 26 times so far this year. That does not count the knockdowns. He will be lucky to make it through the season.

 

[moklerman]

If you have a good QB you draft Bush. If you have no QB worth keeping you have to think about this real hard. Bush and Leinhart are both #1s in my mind. Depends on your need.

I don't agree with this philosophy. If you have a high pick, you trade down, gain picks and build a nucleus of good players. Teams that draft qb's high in the draft hardly, if ever, win the Super Bowl. Look at all the Super Bowl winning qb's from the recent past. Brady-7th round, Warner-undrafted, Dilfer, Johnson, Favre, etc. Elway was the last high drafted qb to win the Super Bowl and it took him 12 years until Terrel Davis showed up to do it. A "franchise" qb isn't what the Cardinals need (IMO).

 

[john h]

The question is not whether he will be a great NFL QB - it's whether his record and stats are good enough to justifythe risk. Clearly they are in almost every case, IMO. That being said, the Cardinals might be one of the worse fits for him. It may be just defeatist Cards thinking, but I hate the thought of paying through the nose for him and then watching him be another Carr behind a line we can't afford to upgrade.

Someday, somehow we are going to have to draft a top QB. There is no guarantee off success with any position. The chances greatly improve the higher you draft. Some of our great QB's were just that both in college and in the pros and scouts could see it all the way. A lot of them today think Leinhart is a special QB so if you got a shot at such a QB take him. You do not get those chances often or else continue playing with castoffs or guys like McCown who may be an average QB. Anyone think this guy will be a special QB is seeing something not many are seeing. He is almost 4 years into this league and we are crowing about two good games one of which was lost.

 

[conraddobler]

This is a tough call and it really depends on other players who are there.

I'd like to take the best offensive lineman that was available if you know that person will play for the Cardinals for like 12 to 15 years then take them by all means.

I'm not much of a draft expert, I don't know who is great this year as far as the non skill positions but to me the Cards would benefit most from taking a great lineman for either side of the ball the most.

We had our shot at a QB in Big Ben, Leinart is good maybe even very good but that is meaningless without a solid team around him.

To stop this utter madness we experience every year we need to build a rock solid offensive and defensive line, not a good one but a great one.

You can then take a good back not great and a good QB not great and win it all.

It's been done that way several times, more so than someone like Manning winning it all although he may this year but that's because the solidness of the overall team improved, not because Manning did.

 

[Russ Smith]

I agree that Barlow and Gore may not be the next Walter Payton but I also don't think they are a problem or weak link. I wasn't aware of Gore's knee problems. I actually don't know anything about him other than what I've seen on the 49ers, which has been mostly good. The few times I've seen him he has clearly outplayed Barlow. My perception of Barlow may be outdated too. He was a stud when he first came into the league and basically ran the other rb out of town. Now, he hasn't realized his potential but the 49ers have been so bad lately that I don't know if you can fairly assess the rb's actual ability.

Aside from all of that though, I don't really think the 49ers have the cap space to rebuild and pay Bush the kind of money he's going to get. They would be a lot better off to trade down in my opinion. There just aren't any sure things coming out of college anymore in terms of "win's". Cadillac Williams came into a lot better situation than Bush would in SF and as good as he's looked, he's still dinged up and missing playing time. It's just not worth sinking all that money into a skill player when you have so many pressing needs on the o-line and defense.

They have capspace but part of that is assuming they let Peterson walk and they probably will.

Gore has had ACL surgery on BOTH knees. He blew out one after his freshman year and then another after i think his junior year? Too bad the kid was spectacular before he hurt his knees, as a freshman he was amazing off the bench, he'd beaten out McGahee as a soph but he blew his knee out and then McGahee became a star before blowing his knee out. Gore was special he ran really hard but he was also extremely elusive, sort of a poor man's Barry Sanders.

 

[FrustratedFan04]

What is all the hype about Leinart. I have watched 4 Usc games this year and i have not seen him do any thing more spectacular than Josh Mcnown. yes his stats are high but mainly becuse he dose a 2 yard drop off pass to to Bush or White and they are they are so good they turn that in to a 70 yard TD pass. never do you see him throw deep. usc also has a awesome O-Line that gives alot of time. I cant wait till he flops in the nfl. Josh for sure has a better arm.

Couldn't agree more. McCown may or may not have a "better arm" but Leinart looks like his is dead. We'll be picking #2 or #3 and praying for Reggie Bush to come to us.

 

[Evil Ash]

We must not be talking about the same guys. You are talking about a two time Heisman winner and a team that has won something like 28 straight games against tough competition. Who would even consider McCown over Leinhart? We have watched McCown for 3.5 years. What has he done for the team? This is like comparing JJ with Barry Sanders.

What exactly has Leinart done in the NFL? Oh yeah nothing

Can we quit putting the guy in the HOF before he plays a single game?

 

[conraddobler]

What exactly has Leinart done in the NFL? Oh yeah nothing

Can we quit putting the guy in the HOF before he plays a single game?

We take him and he starts a dot.com bead company and retires after consecutive 3-13 seasons.

Someone else does and he's a HOF QB with 5 Super Bowl rings.

It's simple Cardinal Karma.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

What exactly has Leinart done in the NFL? Oh yeah nothing

Can we quit putting the guy in the HOF before he plays a single game?

Umm im not sure i follow this logic....what has anyone done in the NFL before they are drafted....?

Its called projecting...Its what Mel Kiper likely makes millions to do...you take Mental, Physical, and Production at a high level and use those to guesstimate who translates best to the NFL.

As i have stated ad nauseum about this guy. I could care less that he is built physically like what you would want if you built the perfect QB. I could care less that he has played in a pro style offense with and NFL offensive coordinator and has lead his ridiculously talented team to a soon to be three titles...( he is the guy pulling the trigger) I could also care less in even the games i watch where his numbers dont look that great in the end (and admittedly these last three games i think the beating he has taken has began to effect his consistency) he still throws the ball more accuratly and to the right place better than any college QB i have seen since, ironically enough, Carson Palmer (and no im not a SC fan, UA all day) None of this is why i project him to be a great NFL, QB barring injury.

Its his mental makeup and intangibles. Hes tough. He's a leader. He's very intelligent at reading defenses. and most importantly hes a winner. He just gets it done. I want Bush more for this team but watch another team pick him (im thinking the raiders) and have a starter for the next 12 years......

Im not going to go back and reread this entire post but did domeone really compare McCown to Lienert in terms of who is better for the Cardinals.....I am not even going to comment to that except to say im thinking Sam Houston State or wherever the heck he went is just a notch below SC in terms of football programs. That and McCown has actually had three and a half years in the NFL (unlike Lienert, Ash) and has STILL done nothing in the NFL ...Lay off the Josh lovers.......

 

[Redsz]

Im not going to go back and reread this entire post but did domeone really compare McCown to Lienert in terms of who is better for the Cardinals.....I am not even going to comment to that except to say im thinking Sam Houston State or wherever the heck he went is just a notch below SC in terms of football programs. That and McCown has actually had three and a half years in the NFL (unlike Lienert, Ash) and has STILL done nothing in the NFL ...Lay off the Josh lovers.......

Comparing schools as the crutch of your argument for and against a player really is flawed. There are guys who come from 'big' schools and do nothing. While guys from 'small' schools come in and achieve a great deal.

Josh looks like he has significantly improved from last year and looks like he could achieve something with this team in the near future. I would agree with Ash in saying that the passing game is the LEAST of our problems right now. Josh just set a franchise record over the last two games for goodness sakes! And yet we have had several pages of debate in regards to the merits of selecting a QB in the first round to fix what exactly?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Comparing schools as the crutch of your argument for and against a player really is flawed. There are guys who come from 'big' schools and do nothing. While guys from 'small' schools come in and achieve a great deal.

Josh looks like he has significantly improved from last year and looks like he could achieve something with this team in the near future. I would agree with Ash in saying that the passing game is the LEAST of our problems right now. Josh just set a franchise record over the last two games for goodness sakes! And yet we have had several pages of debate in regards to the merits of selecting a QB in the first round to fix what exactly?

It wasn't really the crux of my argument (that was the previous three paragraphs) but i get your point....Josh has significantly improved. Trust me i am as impressed as anybody. Still he lacks all those mental intangibles I was referring to previously. That and he manages to make the play that loses the game (see Carolina halftime interception) instead of the play that wins the game (see Lienert 4th and 9 at ND) He might end up getting it at some point, but i dont want to sit around waiting that out. He is actually VERY similar to everones main man Jake, and the Broncos have finally figured out that you let your stellar running game and defense carry the team, not your mistake prone QB. And now they actually look pretty good. The Cards have neither a stellar D (although gettin close) and no semblance of a running so a caretaker QB aint really going to do it.

I agree we have other needs. A couple O linemen, a stud RB and MLB and even a TE would all be nice.....

But over a QB that can carry the team???? No way man, this is the NFL which stands for Not For Long if you don't have at least a competent QB. And we need much more than a competent QB, we need a playmaker....Put away the Lienert argument for a sec and just consider that....I think with the same team and the offensive line improving (im convinced by week 16 we have both the players and OC to be average to good which is good enough to get by) the only difference between 6-10 and 9-7 or better is a QB who makes more game winning plays than game ending plays. Neither Josh or even Kurt is that at this point.

I know its difficult to recognize a franchise QB since we have never had one but its the one link between this team being bad for so long. Look at the revival in Cincy:

Esiason - Bengals=good: Everyone inbetween - Bengals=no good : Palmer - Bengals=good

Its not quite that simple and there are exceptions but its no doubt important. Look at the best teams over the last five years. Colts have Manning, Eagles have MCNabb, and Pats have Brady....thats no concidence. The only time our poor fans have had reason to be happy is when our QB played out of his a$$ and we went to the playoffs. Unfortunatly we then give hime big money and true to Cardinal form he falls off the face of the earth....

Lienert or not, this team has no bigger need then a great QB and we are all kidding ourselves if we think Warner and Josh are going to be able to carry a team with just pretty good other aspects of the team. Now if we had the Baltimore defense and Pittsburgh running game, it would be a whole different story......

 

[john h]

Umm im not sure i follow this logic....what has anyone done in the NFL before they are drafted....?

Its called projecting...Its what Mel Kiper likely makes millions to do...you take Mental, Physical, and Production at a high level and use those to guesstimate who translates best to the NFL.

As i have stated ad nauseum about this guy. I could care less that he is built physically like what you would want if you built the perfect QB. I could care less that he has played in a pro style offense with and NFL offensive coordinator and has lead his ridiculously talented team to a soon to be three titles...( he is the guy pulling the trigger) I could also care less in even the games i watch where his numbers dont look that great in the end (and admittedly these last three games i think the beating he has taken has began to effect his consistency) he still throws the ball more accuratly and to the right place better than any college QB i have seen since, ironically enough, Carson Palmer (and no im not a SC fan, UA all day) None of this is why i project him to be a great NFL, QB barring injury.

Its his mental makeup and intangibles. Hes tough. He's a leader. He's very intelligent at reading defenses. and most importantly hes a winner. He just gets it done. I want Bush more for this team but watch another team pick him (im thinking the raiders) and have a starter for the next 12 years......

Im not going to go back and reread this entire post but did domeone really compare McCown to Lienert in terms of who is better for the Cardinals.....I am not even going to comment to that except to say im thinking Sam Houston State or wherever the heck he went is just a notch below SC in terms of football programs. That and McCown has actually had three and a half years in the NFL (unlike Lienert, Ash) and has STILL done nothing in the NFL ...Lay off the Josh lovers.......

I think it is almost even money that Bush/Leinhart or Leinhart/Bush go 1-2 in the draft barring any injury. This seems like a no brainer.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I think it is almost even money that Bush/Leinhart or Leinhart/Bush go 1-2 in the draft barring any injury. This seems like a no brainer.

I was actually thinking of starting a thread on that very topic. While I think that Bush will be the best player in not only this years draft but even possibly the last five drafts, I could definitely see a scenario where he goes third.

With QB being the most important position on every team and a remarkable inability for 20 out of the 32 teams to not be happy with their play under center every year, it is no wonder that a QB has been the first pick every year for like the last six years. I think people are going to find out that Alex Smith was not the best choice at #1 when its all said and done, but the position is so important that the players are overrated. I think this was the case with numerous guys like Smith, Couch, and even David Carr (although I’m not sure he is completely hopeless)

I don’t see this to be the case with Lienert. I think he will be the number one pick and rightfully so. I don’t care if the Texans, 9ers, or whomever has that initial pick, they will follow suit and do the smart thing and trade the pick for the team most desperate for a franchise QB. Like I keep saying, I think the Raiders will be picking top 5 and either one of those teams could use D’brickshaw or Bush and end up getting another first rounder out of it. Al Davis, with his love of Heisman winners and USC, will salivate at having Matt behind his high power offense. Miami, Cleveland, Baltimore, Detroit, Tampa Bay, NY Jets, and even our beloved AZ Cardinals also would be asinine not to find out what the cost will be. So I definitely see Lienert going one.

Where I see Bush dropping another spot is for two reasons. Now it will be a lot harder to project who goes #2 due to the variety of factors. But lets say a QB starved team has the number one pick. Then all those other teams might be jockeying for number two and a shot at Vince Young. I am surprised the swell for this guy has been slow in gaining momentum, but he seems like a smarter better passing Vick to me (at least when Vick was at VT) Remember how Vick mania went off the charts after he almost single handedly took down FSU in the title game? Well I would bet my first born that Texas will not lose another game and depending on how the BCS ends up shaking out, that would put them in the title game against SC. Anyone recall the last time Young had a national stage like that. Suffice to say he did pretty well and I’m not sure SC has had to deal with a player quite like him. I would say that even though SC will smack down UT (and I actually think the talent is comparable. But Mack Brown against Pete Carroll…..You can’t see me right now but I’m rolling my eyes. This ain’t Lloyd Carr, Mack) Young could have a HUGE game.

So then he goes to the combine and shows off that projected sub 4.3 speed and its all over. Some team will become enamored (to be honest I need to see more before I make a decision on his pro prospects) and take him number two. I coincide this with the fact that although unfair, Bush will be nitpicked and people tend to forget the season once the evaluation time comes up. I think Caddy is a poor man’s Bush, and look how many people worried he would be unable to carry a full load (someone should have sent Gruden that memo)….He even had a player in the SAME backfield come out before him, even though Tubberville always lauded Caddy more, he got the goal line carries, and had better production numbers. I just don’t understand NFL evaluation sometimes. So I was not shocked at all when Caddy came out and out played Brown. I think Brown will be good but I have always thought Caddy was special.

This might be a little far off but I could actually see the same thing happening this year as well (although I strongly doubt it). Imagine if Lendale White declares and runs a 4.3 something (its possible, dude is fast)..Everyone will be so enamored with his size AND speed he will be highly coveted.


So it could go like this:

1. Lienert

2. Young

3. White

4. Bush



But this is more accurate to me:

1. Bush

2. Lienert

3. Young

4. White



We will see because the draft is a long way off and things do change. But if I look at recent history I think the Cardinals could be in a damn fine spot with that # 3 pick. They can trade up if they are convinced of Lienert or choose between the left overs of Bush and Young. Not bad at all. I think Denny will get a more experienced QB (im hoping he does not give Jeff George a call….) and stick with his BPA and draft Bush…and that would make me and Cardinal fans ecstatic for years to come……..