Channel 10 news... trade?

[JJ Slim]

From Suns.com posted yesterday.

2003-04 Position Breakdown
Center

By Steven Koek, Suns.com
Posted: Sept. 29, 2003

Once again, the Suns enter the season with their biggest question mark coming from the men in the middle. The three-headed center monster returns with Jake Tsakalidis coming off last season’s back surgery, Jake Voskuhl having made great strides in “Big Jake’s” absence and the veteran presence of Scott Williams. Bo Outlaw also saw some action at the five spot in 2002-03, but if the three biggest men remain healthy and productive, they should see the bulk of the minutes at the center position.

Jake Tsakalidis

This could be a make or break season for Tsakalidis. While his second NBA campaign in 2001-02 took a drastic turn for the better after the promotion of Frank Johnson to head coach, last season saw the 7-2 center limited to 33 games due to a bulging disk problem in the early portion of the campaign, followed by back surgery in January.

Holding dual citizenship in the Republic of Georgia and Greece, Tsakalidis played for the Greek National Team in the European Championships this summer after working out with Suns coaches in Phoenix early in the offseason.

“He’s got to be what was wanted from day one,” said assistant coach Marc Iavaroni, “a physical presence inside, able to battle the big guys like Shaq, like Jermaine O’Neal and be able to hold his own defensively. I like him as a support player and when I say support, he doesn’t have to make a lot of plays on the ball. He just has to make very good plays off the ball. He has to do a good job offensive rebounding and defensive rebounding. He has to do a consistent job of just making the open shot, which he can do, understanding that Amaré (Stoudemire) is going to be our primary post-up guy.”

Playing out the last year of his contract, this should be the season that the 24-year-old lives up to the potential the Suns envisioned when they selected him with the 25th overall pick in the 2000 draft. If not, it could be his last in Phoenix.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/center_0304.html

 

[Griffin]

One question: why is that Trybanski dude making so much money? He should be getting the minimum.

I would guess Archibald will be released, and I wouldn't be surprised if Trybanski doesn't make the team either. The Suns just wanted to unload Outlaw's contract and apparently had no intention of resigning Big Jake either. They didn't care who they were getting in return. Knight will be servicable, but that's about all the Suns wil get from this trade, that and a few millions saved, though i don't see how that directly translates to cap flexibility.

If the Suns knew they were gonna unload Big Jake and wanted to improve their center rotation while at it, why not swing a deal for Drobnjak that the Clippers got for a second round pick? This trade was in no way intended to improve the team, and may end up being detrimental.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by elindholm

The problem is that the Suns forfeited Tsakalidis to the Grizzlies just to get Outlaw's 2004-05 salary off their hands.

Yes, that happened from Suns' viewpoint.
Archibald is a throw-in and Knight won't contribute more than Outlaw did.
BTW, I like Knight, he is a nice, hard-working, 1st pass PG but he will hardly contribute more than Outlaw had plus Knight is injury prone.

That's potentially a very high price to pay for a few million dollars. I hope that this decision doesn't come back to haunt the Suns, but I think it's quite likely that Tsakalidis will prove to be a better "true" center than anyone the Suns will have in the next five years.

I agree again.

About the Tsakaildis-Trzybanski swap:

Trybanski was a NOBODY in Europe.Even the craziest Eurobaskets fans haven't any idea about him.
He was a role player for a "nothing special" polish team. He wasn't a polish national player.
I never understood why West gave him a 5 mil./3 year contract maybe he saw something in Trybanski which anyone else did not.

Right now Tsakalidis HAS TO BE a MUCH better player than Trybanski because Tsakalidis is a starting C for a much better european national team while Trybanski is not a national player.
Since we all know how good is Tsakalidis this fact determines how big will be Trybanski's impact on Suns' play this coming season.
It will be ZERO I'm sure.

Only for the record I saw 2 games of the greek national team in Eurobasket and Tsakalidis was their starting C.
Big Jake was much bigger than his opponents and he still had difficulties with the low-post scoring.
He was a more important factor of their defense but he usually got quick fouls partially because of the different officiating in Europe.
All in all he seemed to be more athletic but it was hardly imaginable that he will become more than a role-playing borderline starter C in NBA----which is definitely more than you can expect from Trybanski right now and in the future as well.


So Suns got a decent backup PG for 6 minutes/game in 40-50 games of the season-- and lost Outlaw.
They got a C prospect who will probably never earn a roster spot in NBA once when his contract will expire---and lost Tsakalidis.
They dumped Outlaw's last year's salary which is welcomed in my eyes and they reduced their team pay-roll to about 50 mil. in the next offseason which frees up the possibility to sign a significant FA next offseason without paying the luxury tax.

That deal was similar to the Robinson-trade where Suns sacrified talent for saving some millions.
In this actual trade there is at least some hope that Suns will use the saved money for signing of a decent FA in 2004.
Colangelos are seeming to be more profit-oriented than most of people on this board thought.

 

[Chaplin]

One, I don't like the trade, but I am starting to get fed up with the way people like slinslin have taken upon themselves to talk down to the rest of us who don't like the trade. He has his reasons to like it, fine, but that's no reason to be an a-hole about it.

This trade is a disaster for us. It might put us in a better position next summer, but by how much, really? Googs was already going to be gone by then, and Bo's salary, while high, was going to go down, not up. Sure, we'd have to worry about resigning Jake, but if we did resign him, then obviously he would have showed that he's worth resigning in the first place, right? So we'll save 3.5, maybe 4 million dollars next year. So what? That's not even the amount of the MLE. That's about 1/3 of what Steph will be making this year alone.

This guy Tryblinski or whatever has NO reputation. Not even slinslin, who likes the trade can say anything about him. hcsilla has further demonstrated that point with his last post. Tryblinski and Archibald together aren't worth any of our players. Right now, based on past performances (or lack thereof) they are actually worse than Dan Langhi! And that's pretty bad.

So it comes down to Brevin Knight and worse-than-Dan Langhi for Jake and Bo.

And that is one of the worst trades I've EVER seen. We weren't that hard up for a backup point guard.

 

[JJ Slim]

Originally posted by Chaplin
And that is one of the worst trades I've EVER seen.

Isn't that the truth? And to give up a fan favorite in Bo, not to mention the loss of defense. And I think it was Eric that mentioned all the hard work that Suns had invested in Big Jake, to just throw that away for nothing.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by JJ Slim
to just throw that away for nothing.

EXACTLY.

I can just see the headline...

Suns Trade Starting Center and top Energy Defender for backup point guard and Big Bucket of Memphis Barbeque

BC says it gives us more flexibility. Flexibility to do what, exactly?

Usually, when I think on a trade more and more, the more it becomes ok. In this case, it is not. I seem to be getting angrier and angrier.

Maybe this thread should be in the Bird Droppings forum. Wait a sec, Bird Droppings make more sense.

 

[KK Chub]

Well, try as I might, I just can't find anything good about this trade. I can't see where shaving less than $1,000,000.00 off the books is really going to make much of a difference financially. I don't see a need for another PG, especially one whose numbers are nothing to get excited about and who appears to have injury issues.

Nor do we need a forward who is a veritable unknown rookie and whose numbers also leave me unimpressed, to replace Bo who may have had some bad moments, but was also the spark we needed many times when our game started to slow. Whose personality and chutzpah helped to coalesce the team and build its chemistry.

As for this young center who I have never heard of until tonight, he might-- and I do stress the word might--pan out and become a force to be reckoned with someday, but who knows when that will be, and why are we taking on another project center when we already had one who was showing good progress before his back went out? One who gave us a big body to go up against the likes of Shaq, Yao, etc.. This other guy is 7'1" but he's only about 250 lbs.

Small ball is all I see right now for our future, and that saddens me to no end. There is nothing that can make this trade alright in my eyes, if anything I feel like the revolving door has been reopened. They should have left it alone for another season, let the chemistry build and they should have given Jake a fair chance to prove himself after his surgery last year. Period!

 

[3rdside]

One, I don't like the trade, but I am starting to get fed up with the way people like slinslin have taken upon themselves to talk down to the rest of us who don't like the trade. He has his reasons to like it, fine, but that's no reason to be an a-hole about it.

Chaplin, I don't want to upset you but, no offence, many of your posts convey the exact feeling your getting upset at slin slin for. It seems a touch hypocritical to me. When slinslin and hcsilla get pis*ed at ya (and i'm sure most everyone else has seen you guys go at it sometimes) then this is the reason. You tend to be a bit a-holeish in your opinion as well sometimes.

As for the trade, does clearing this room mean we can sign someone for the MLE/ or sign a player period? I intially thought this was a pretty good trade but after reading your's and jj's/kk's opinion, I'm beginning to think otherwise.

 

[arthurracoon]

Originally posted by ...tTs*...
I intially thought this was a pretty good trade but after reading your's and jj's/kk's opinion, I'm beginning to think otherwise.

I do not like this trade.

Bo meant a lot to this team, chemistry wise and defense wise.

 

[BC867]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Do you guys realize, though, that our center rotation consists of Jake Voskuhl, Scott Williams and this Trybanski guy.

Well, looks like we're back to having the worst center rotation in the league.

This isn't inconsistent with past years. The Suns center rotation usually consists of Forwards for most of the game.

Ironically the only time we had a true Center on the floor during 4th quarters was when Rick Robey was brought in to play Power Forward.

Edwards was usually in there near the end, but he played offense 20 feet away from the basket.

Nope, it's not inconsistent at all.

With the game on the line, our Center rotation is going to be Amare!

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Hmm, slin, so who exactly guards Shaq?

Heh. No one. No one in the enitre league guards Shaq.

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by arthurracoon
Me too.

Who is going to lead our full court press.

The press was one main reason we were good last year.

And it was also readily apparent that Bo was oftentimes WAY out of position defensivley becasue he would jump out on anybody with the ball, at anytime, leaving his man open.

Its a wash. Hate to see a good guy go, but we're not going to lose any games because of his absence, IMHO.

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by slinslin


Fans are acting like crybabies (just look at phxsuns.net) about this trade because Outlaw was a funny guy and Big Jake a dumb looking poor russian that everyone seemed to have a soft spot for keeps up their hopes for him for forever.

Neither Big Jake nor Outlaw would have gotten meaningful playing time.

And go ahead and mark the date and time here as well. Slin and I are in 100% agreement.

 

[arthurracoon]

Ok then...you guys said the Bo's absense will not mean playing wise...what about chemisrtry wise?

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by arthurracoon
Ok then...you guys said the Bo's absense will not mean playing wise...what about chemisrtry wise?

I see your point, but I dont put as much weight in that as you apparently. Sure its a loss from a lockeroom standpoint. But oin matters of business, lockeroom presence is rarely accounted for. Especially when the team is losing 10 + mil a season.

Its a business move. One that might hurt now, but helps the financial health of the organization in the future. And an instable franchise will give us all far more headahces as fans in the future than the immediate impact of the Outlaw loss.

And again, I dont believe we'll lose OR win any more games without Outlaw. I wish him and Jake well.

 

[SirStefan32]

The only thing I like about this trade is that we dumped Outlaw's contract. I like Bo as much as you guys do, but his contract was terrible.

As far as Jake goes, I don't understand why C's just gave him away. I thought we could get more in return than Brevin Knight and a couple of nobodys.

I don't like the trade, UNLESS Colangelo has another trade or FA signing in mind.

 

[slinslin]

It is a wonder we were able to get Brevin Knight for Outlaw and Big Jake.

Not really because it is Knight but because he has an expiring contract.

Earlier many of you were saying that nobody in the league would take on Outlaw's contract and give us an expiring one.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin


So it comes down to Brevin Knight and worse-than-Dan Langhi for Jake and Bo.

And that is one of the worst trades I've EVER seen. We weren't that hard up for a backup point guard.

Now who's going overboard. "One of the worst trades EVER seen." Surely you must be joking.

Let's get something straight. For the Phoenix Suns this was not a move made to improve personnel. It was a move to save money. If I remember correctly last year the Phoenix Suns reported a $2 million loss in revenue. This season with Shawn Marion's extension that is expected to jump to $20-25 million in the red ink.

This season Brevin Knight, Trybanski, and Archibald will combine to make around $7 million. I doubt Archibald's contract is guaranteed for this season though. Basic second-round contracts are usually only guaranteed for the first season (team option). Bo Outlaw and Big Jake will make a combined $6.5 million. So this season the trade really does not save the Phoenix Suns any money. In fact it may cost them a couple hundred thousand dollars.

But the true savings come next season. Yes, Tom Gugliotta's salary comes off the books this summer, but before this trade the Suns salary next season would have been around $53 million. And that doesn't include re-signing Jake Tsakalidis (restricted free agent). Now, after the trade, next year's team's salary looks to be around $48 million.

That means they stand to save $5 million in salary. $53 million salary would have put them dangerously close to the luxury tax. If they wanted to re-sign Jake Tsakalidis they would have been in luxury tax territory. That would have cost them at least an additional $5 million. That's $10 million in savings. If you assume it would have taken at least $1.5 million per season to re-sign Big Jake that's another $3 million in savings.

That's a lot of money, especially for a team posting losses.

Originally posted by elindholm

This is the same old story of the Suns expecting to find a gem in someone else's garbage. They are constantly picking up no-talent big men that another team has thrown on the scrap heap, thinking that somehow the player will magically blossom when he puts on a Suns uniform.

You mean like Jake Voskuhl? What other "garbage" have the Colangelos expected big things from when they were signed or traded to the Phoenix Suns? Come on Eric. I don't think anybody in the Phoenix Suns organization is expecting Trybanski to be a gem. At least they haven't indicated anything like that so far. They made the move for salary reasons and to get a decent backup point guard to move the offense when Marbury is on the bench.

The problem is that the Suns forfeited Tsakalidis to the Grizzlies just to get Outlaw's 2004-05 salary off their hands. That's potentially a very high price to pay for a few million dollars. I hope that this decision doesn't come back to haunt the Suns, but I think it's quite likely that Tsakalidis will prove to be a better "true" center than anyone the Suns will have in the next five years.

I think slin has been a little bit harsh regarding his assessments of Jake and Bo Outlaw, but much of it has been pretty accurate. The only guys Big Jake can really defend at all are the bigger, slower centers in the NBA. Even many of those guys still eat him alive. The smaller, faster centers were telling him a new one night in and night out. On the other end of the court, well, I really don't even have to go there. Big Jake was a negative factor on offense. Every once in awhile he was able to get a put back were shot put an "hook shot" into the basket. Nobody can deny that it was ugly and difficult watch.

As far as Outlaw goes on long board with Schudt and slin. I think the team will miss Bo Outlaw , but for all the good things he did Bo also did a lot of things poorly. We all know he had a minimal offensive presence. And like schudt pointed out already he had a real tendency to get out of position on defense because of his aggressiveness.

BTW I congratulate you if you made it through this entire post. It was much longer than I expected.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

Especially when the team is losing 10 + mil a season.

They might lose that kind of money this season, thanks to Gugliotta. But this is the only year that the Suns will be way over the luxury tax. For 2004-05, they were at around $53 million before the trade went through. (Edit: Not $51 million as I originally wrote.) That isn't so bad.

The Suns will still get hammered by the luxury tax this season.

Also, Outlaw was (and is) a very good candidate to get picked up in next summer's expansion draft. There's a decent chance that the Suns could have gotten out of the last year of his deal anyway.

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by elindholm
Especially when the team is losing 10 + mil a season.

They might lose that kind of money this season, thanks to Gugliotta. But this is the only year that the Suns will be way over the luxury tax. For 2004-05, they were at around $51 million before the trade went through. That isn't so bad.

The Suns will still get hammered by the luxury tax this season.

Also, Outlaw was (and is) a very good candidate to get picked up in next summer's expansion draft. There's a decent chance that the Suns could have gotten out of the last year of his deal anyway.

Thats an assumption. You dont normally abide by using logic based on assumption. Only when you disapprove?

 

[scotsman13]

guys look at it like this. this off season the suns will remove knights 5 million, williams 1 million, googs 11.7 million, and maybe (i hope) hardaways 14.6 million (in the expantion draft). that brings the suns down to around 18 million with hardway gone around 32 million. that would place the suns well under the cap. the suns are at 63 million this year. wow that would place the suns well under the cap at 54 and may bring them to the point that they are free of the match point on the cba. that means if they are over that pointever dollar they are over they must match. so around 10 million dollors. then this off season we can go out and sign someone like mehmet okur who own big jake in europe this summer.

that means we have the room to keep marbury, marion, amare and joe johnson plus build around them a good team. in the next couple year shaq will be gone and the only center out there that might cause us any problems is yoa and his biggest point is his outside play. it has come down to the fact that hands of stone is a player with limited value and high costs that the suns couldnt afford.

 

[elindholm]

but before this trade the Suns salary next season would have been around $53 million.

I thought it was $51 million. Am I overlooking someone? Don't forget that the Suns have now added Trybanski's salary for 2004-5, which is $1.76 million.

What other "garbage" have a Colangelos expected to big things from when they signed or were traded to the Phoenix Suns?

Danny Schayes and Dan Langhi are two recent glaring examples. Both were untalented big men who "could shoot." Well, no, actually they couldn't.

Regarding Voskuhl, the Suns gave up almost nothing for him -- Soumaila Samake and a second-round pick.

 

[elindholm]

I thought it was $51 million. Am I overlooking someone?

Whoops, yes I am. I'm overlooking Joe Johnson. I always forget that HoopsHype doesn't include team options in its total.

$53 million is correct, sorry. Still, the savings is only $3.6 million, because the Suns will still have to pay Trybanski.

 

[elindholm]

Thats an assumption. You dont normally abide by using logic based on assumption.

It's not an assumption to assess it as likely. I think it is likely. It would be an assumption if I said it was going to happen.

Would you rather have $10 or a 50-50 chance to win $50? Estimating the likelihood of a financial outcome is fair game.

 

[slinslin]

The Suns will also likely have a first round pick next season maybe even 2 if Cleveland does well.

Plus the Suns will want to go shopping in the offseason.