CNNSI says Cards / Green close

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by TheCardFan
I am not sure if your kidding or not (tongue in cheek and all) but these guys Billick, Dungy, and Tice were not pushed out the door by anyone...they were promoted to Head Coach.

That's success to have your people move onward and upward. Very much the same way Dennis Green and many others have done the same from Bill Walsh.

Did Bill Walsh force out Holmgren, Shannahan, Gruden, Grenn, and the others? I don't think so.

First of all....

Tony Dungy is not a "Dennis Green" product, as such. Yes, Dungy spent 4 years in Minnesota as DC before leaving to take the Tampa Bay job. I'm sure he learned something in those 4 years. But he is probably more a product of Marty Schottenheimer's tutelage, as well as maybe Chuck Knoll than that of Dennis Green. Dungy broke into coaching in Pittsburgh, under Knoll, after playing DB for them. Green was smart enough to steal Dungy, who was starting to become a "commodity" then, away from Schottenheimer in Kansas City, where Dungy was DB coach at the time.

Brian Billick is the only assistant coach that I would credit Green with, in that sense. Green hired him out of the college ranks, where I think their paths had crossed at Stanford. I'd have to double check, but I think that's where it was.

Mike Tice a Dennis Green disciple? Maybe. I was a Seahawk fan before the Cards moved to Az., Where Tice played TE. I'd be willing to bet that Chuck Knox might also have had an influence. Tice certainly is an entirely different breed of cat than Dennis Green in a lot of ways.

There was only 1 assistant coach that started and ended with Green. That was Richard Solomon. Yes, THAT Richard Solomon, the coaching legend. I posted this once before...one of the contributing factors to Owner, Red McCombs getting rid of Green was Green's refusal to fire Soloman as McCombs requested.

Every other NFL experienced coach under Green didn't stay long. And left given any decent opportunity to do so. Very few ever moved as a "promotion".
Monte Kiffin, whom Green inherited from Jerry Burns when he took over.
John Marshall
Willie Shaw
Chris Foerster
John Teerlinck
Tom Batta
Jerry Rhome
Ray Sherman
Foge Fazio
Tom Olivadatti
Dave Atkins
Sherman Lewis
Emmitt Thomas

Stability was never the rule of thumb in Minnesota during those years of 1992-2001.

Green also hired many "unknowns" so to speak. that didn't last long and were never seen or heard much of in the NFL other than their stint there:
Keith Rowan
Gary Zauner
Carl Hargraves
John Levra
Chip Myers
Trent Walters
Hubbard Alexander
Andre Patterson
Alex Wood
Charlie Baggett
John Fontes
John Tice
Fred von Appen
Brian Baker

Tyrone Willingham is the only other assistant that I would term a Green disciple. Green brought him to Minnesota from Stanford. Willingham returned there as HC after serving as RB coach under Green for the Vikings. He is one of the few former assistants that has ever expressed much vocal support of Green once no longer in his employ. Willingham's NFL experience is still very limited.

 

[Evil Ash]

Originally posted by D-Dogg
Did you read these lines?



Is that just posturing and conjecture or are there perhaps some rumblings of the Cardinals making a play for Eli?? Graves and Bidwill were at the Cotton Bowl, and maybe they are playing up the Eli card to Green? Dunno, but it is interesting that this reporter goes off for a bit on this angle.

I would say that it is mostly conjecture at this point but not totally out of the realm of possibility. If you go by the draft rumors that are going around right now ... San Diego won't pick a QB because they're willing to give Brees another shot and the Raiders are supposedly in love with Roy Williams so they aren't picking a QB either.

Could Eli and/or Ben be available when we pick? Right now its too early to tell but I'd say that it is possible.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
First of all....

Tony Dungy is not a "Dennis Green" product, as such. Yes, Dungy spent 4 years in Minnesota as DC before leaving to take the Tampa Bay job. I'm sure he learned something in those 4 years. But he is probably more a product of Marty Schottenheimer's tutelage, as well as maybe Chuck Knoll than that of Dennis Green. Dungy broke into coaching in Pittsburgh, under Knoll, after playing DB for them. Green was smart enough to steal Dungy, who was starting to become a "commodity" then, away from Schottenheimer in Kansas City, where Dungy was DB coach at the time.

Brian Billick is the only assistant coach that I would credit Green with, in that sense. Green hired him out of the college ranks, where I think their paths had crossed at Stanford. I'd have to double check, but I think that's where it was.

Mike Tice a Dennis Green disciple? Maybe. I was a Seahawk fan before the Cards moved to Az., Where Tice played TE. I'd be willing to bet that Chuck Knox might also have had an influence. Tice certainly is an entirely different breed of cat than Dennis Green in a lot of ways.

There was only 1 assistant coach that started and ended with Green. That was Richard Solomon. Yes, THAT Richard Solomon, the coaching legend. I posted this once before...one of the contributing factors to Owner, Red McCombs getting rid of Green was Green's refusal to fire Soloman as McCombs requested.

Every other NFL experienced coach under Green didn't stay long. And left given any decent opportunity to do so. Very few ever moved as a "promotion".
Monte Kiffin, whom Green inherited from Jerry Burns when he took over.
John Marshall
Willie Shaw
Chris Foerster
John Teerlinck
Tom Batta
Jerry Rhome
Ray Sherman
Foge Fazio
Tom Olivadatti
Dave Atkins
Sherman Lewis
Emmitt Thomas

Stability was never the rule of thumb in Minnesota during those years of 1992-2001.

Green also hired many "unknowns" so to speak. that didn't last long and were never seen or heard much of in the NFL other than their stint there:
Keith Rowan
Gary Zauner
Carl Hargraves
John Levra
Chip Myers
Trent Walters
Hubbard Alexander
Andre Patterson
Alex Wood
Charlie Baggett
John Fontes
John Tice
Fred von Appen
Brian Baker

Tyrone Willingham is the only other assistant that I would term a Green disciple. Green brought him to Minnesota from Stanford. Willingham returned there as HC after serving as RB coach under Green for the Vikings. He is one of the few former assistants that has ever expressed much vocal support of Green once no longer in his employ. Willingham's NFL experience is still very limited.

I like how you get on people for making assumptions then you do the same thing by assuming Dungy learned more under Noll and Marty than Green. I guess that i'll assume that Dungy learned nothing under Marty/Noll and everything under Green.Plus, anyone who think Foge the Stoge was a respected coach should have their head examined.

 

[Southpaw]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
You might want to ask Jeff Diamond that. He was the Vice President of Football Operations (just like Graves is now, for the Cards) until Green managed to run him out, in a power struggle, and add his title to that of head coach.

It figures , that when the rest of the league starts taking " full authority " away from head coaches a la Holmgren, Parcells, Waanstedt, etc., the Cards are seemingly getting serious about a guy who has a record of being a "control freak". Not a clue. Maybe Bidwills should talk to McCombs about Green.

 

[pinnacle]

I posted in the past that if we wanted a coach and offered them competitive money and if he was a minority (I was actually thinking of Romeo instead of Green) - the league could get involved to somehow push this along....quote from article:

"With an eye on reviving the Cardinals flagging on-field fortunes, and helping at least close the gap between them and every other NFL franchise in terms of ticket sales and revenue streams, the league also has encouraged the Bidwills in the direction of Green. In addition, Green's hiring in Arizona would raise the NFL's contingent of black head coaches to four, which is always a consideration that the league office"

now this kind of says the Bidwills are getting slight push...maybe that 1/2 to 2/3 empty stadium on occasion was being noticed at the league office in New York!

 

[Pariah]

Anti-Mac = D**khead that wins?

That's okay by me.

 

[Southpaw]

Originally posted by pinnacle
I posted in the past that if we wanted a coach and offered them competitive money and if he was a minority (I was actually thinking of Romeo instead of Green) - the league could get involved to somehow push this along....quote from article:

"With an eye on reviving the Cardinals flagging on-field fortunes, and helping at least close the gap between them and every other NFL franchise in terms of ticket sales and revenue streams, the league also has encouraged the Bidwills in the direction of Green. In addition, Green's hiring in Arizona would raise the NFL's contingent of black head coaches to four, which is always a consideration that the league office"

now this kind of says the Bidwills are getting slight push...maybe that 1/2 to 2/3 empty stadium on occasion was being noticed at the league office in New York!

The reward will be , a regular spot in the Super Bowl rotation for Glendale. Politics at it's worst.

 

[JeffGollin]

Isn't this fun?

- One mistake we should try to avoid is comparing one coach with another the same way we do Fantasy QB's. Each guy brings a unique and complex set of attributes and weaknesses to the table. And while past history is important, the real issue is - What can the guy we hire do for us from this moment forward?

- Green has made personnel moves that make him look like a genius (i.e. drafting and starting Culpepper. Drafting Moss when other teams avoided him).

- Green has also bolo'd in the talent evaluation department. Remember the year he left everyone shaking their heads by drafting Demetrius Underwood (DE) so high?

- I think the Cardinals made the right strategic move by giving Buddy the keys to the Caddy, but they gave the keys to the wrong dude. For Dennis to succeed in AZ, I think the Cards will have to give him the same latitude they gave Buddy.

- In other words, if they make Dennis an important part of a management "team" but Dennis has a problem being overruled by Rod, Michael etc., he could become cranky and wind up becoming a divisive force.

- Then again, maybe it would be a healthy thing for bonehead management decisions to be questioned or challenged on the spot.

- I don't think any of us really know the ins and outs of each HC candidate and how Rod and Michael view these guys. It's virtually impossible for us to sit in judgement of each individual. What is fair game, however, is to observe and evaluate the selection process - i.e. what are the criteria for selection? Are the right questions being asked each candidate? Are Rod & Michael negotiating effectively and handling the process efficiently?

- So far, it looks like Rod and Michael are doing a good job. But the real nut-cutting will involve paying enough to sign the guy they want (without totally breaking the bank) and getting the deal done.

 

[jmt]

Originally posted by wallyburger
The reward will be , a regular spot in the Super Bowl rotation for Glendale. Politics at it's worst.

Say what? That's politics at it's best! Increase diversity in management, instant (almost) credibility for the Cardinals and aneconomic boost to Phoenix and the state of Arizona.

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by jmt
Say what? That's politics at it's best! Increase diversity in management, instant (almost) credibility for the Cardinals and aneconomic boost to Phoenix and the state of Arizona.

Yeah, but to base a reward of having the Super Bowl on minority hiring, at face value, is one of the ugliest forms of politics I can think of.

 

[Southpaw]

Originally posted by Stout
Yeah, but to base a reward of having the Super Bowl on minority hiring, at face value, is one of the ugliest forms of politics I can think of.

Sad to say, that is the reality today as, misplaced as it is.

 

[jmt]

Originally posted by Stout
Yeah, but to base a reward of having the Super Bowl on minority hiring, at face value, is one of the ugliest forms of politics I can think of.

I get your point, but the new stadium, warm weather ,and other AZ amenities have somethoing to do with it. I think it is great if the Cards lead the way in minority hiring.

 

[Southpaw]

Originally posted by jmt
I get your point, but the new stadium, warm weather ,and other AZ amenities have somethoing to do with it. I think it is great if the Cards lead the way in minority hiring.

No you still don't get it. The stadium , weather and amenities are prerequisites for any consideration. The reality is that NFL owners are generally, good old boy biggots. The NFL is totally embarassed and is under legal threat to increase minority hirings, and they should be. The reality is, this kind of mandate and reward is the inducement needed to push a minority hiring. That is the point.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by Cbus cardsfan
I like how you get on people for making assumptions then you do the same thing by assuming Dungy learned more under Noll and Marty than Green. I guess that i'll assume that Dungy learned nothing under Marty/Noll and everything under Green.Plus, anyone who think Foge the Stoge was a respected coach should have their head examined.

You might bring your credibility up if you could/would substantiate any of your rantings.

Tony Dungy
1973-1976 - played QB for U. of Minn.
Signed with the Steelers 1977.
Played two years. Member of 1978 Super bowl team
1979- traded to San Francisco, finished playing career with 15 games there
1980 - DB coach at U. of Minnesota
1981- Chuck Knoll brings him back to Pittsburgh as a def. asst.
82-83 - DB coach for Steelers
84-88 - DC for the Steelers, still under Chuck Knoll
89-91- Moves to be DC for Kansas City under new HC, Marty Schottenheimer
92-95 - DC for the Vikings under Green
96-2001- HC Tampa Bay
2002-2003 - HC Colts

Dungy, himself, has said he learned some things from Dennis Green, I alluded to that in my post. But he played for Knoll and coached for him for 8 years.
If you look at his coaching style it far more resembles that of Chuck Knoll than it does of Denny Green. Green has never shown much interest on the defensive side of the ball in his entire career.
In double checking I see that I probably gave too much credit to Schottenheimer. I thought Dungy has spent more time "under" him before going to Kansas City.

..and "Foge the Stoge"???

Did you mean "Foge the Stooge"?
You are on a roll there Cbus....too bad its on a downhill incline.

I'd be interested to know what the basis for your.....ahem, uh, "astute" analysis is?

 

[TheCardFan]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Dungy, himself, has said he learned some things from Dennis Green, I alluded to that in my post. But he played for Knoll and coached for him for 8 years.

Regardless...Dennis Green has an eye for talent. Players and Coaches. He hired Dungy and the point is we would like to have some Dungy's and Billick's on the Cardinals staff to train our players.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by CardinalChris
Vermeil created the Rams offense, but Martz won the ring.

vermeil won the ring. martz has not yet.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by TheCardFan
Regardless...Dennis Green has an eye for talent. Players and Coaches. He hired Dungy and the point is we would like to have some Dungy's and Billick's on the Cardinals staff to train our players.

Dungy left at the first opportunity.
I don't know if you are old enough to remember this yourself, but at the time he took over in Tampa, that wasn't exactly the most ideal situation to be going in to.

...and this little tidbit from Brian Billick:

In response to a question by Don Banks:

...everyone knows how I feel about Dennis Green and the respect I have for him
But if you could have said "Name the one coach from around the league that you'd like to face in the Super Bowl," I would have said Jim Fassel. We've never coached together. He was at Stanford as an assistant when I was with the 49ers on the administrative side, and we got to know each other there. And he was at Utah when I was at Utah State. But we've just been drawn together through the years. He is as good a friend as I have in football.
Over a 15-year period of time, Jim and I, in professional settings, whether it's the combine, the league meetings, whenever there is an opportunity, we seek each other out. We're similar. Jim is usually a part of my mentoring system. If there is something I have to decide on, that I need a little input on, Jim will be at the top of my list of someone I call and say, "Hey, what do you think of this?"

 

[jf-08]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
...and this little tidbit from Brian Billick:

But if you could have said "Name the one coach from around the league that you'd like to face in the Super Bowl," I would have said Jim Fassel.

because he wants to win the Super Bowl and knows he can beat him

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by AzCards21
Well, I was wrong then. Sorry.

Not a bad group though, huh. I would love to be able to list those as past assistants to the Cards.

I think you're still on my side here Krang. That's a pretty sweet list of who was shoved out the door by Dennis Green. Yeah, Let's just pass on this loser.

none of those guys were shoved out the door. dungy and billick were hired away and tice took over after green left.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
First of all....

Tony Dungy is not a "Dennis Green" product, as such. Yes, Dungy spent 4 years in Minnesota as DC before leaving to take the Tampa Bay job. I'm sure he learned something in those 4 years. But he is probably more a product of Marty Schottenheimer's tutelage, as well as maybe Chuck Knoll than that of Dennis Green. Dungy broke into coaching in Pittsburgh, under Knoll, after playing DB for them. Green was smart enough to steal Dungy, who was starting to become a "commodity" then, away from Schottenheimer in Kansas City, where Dungy was DB coach at the time.

Brian Billick is the only assistant coach that I would credit Green with, in that sense. Green hired him out of the college ranks, where I think their paths had crossed at Stanford. I'd have to double check, but I think that's where it was.

Mike Tice a Dennis Green disciple? Maybe. I was a Seahawk fan before the Cards moved to Az., Where Tice played TE. I'd be willing to bet that Chuck Knox might also have had an influence. Tice certainly is an entirely different breed of cat than Dennis Green in a lot of ways.

There was only 1 assistant coach that started and ended with Green. That was Richard Solomon. Yes, THAT Richard Solomon, the coaching legend. I posted this once before...one of the contributing factors to Owner, Red McCombs getting rid of Green was Green's refusal to fire Soloman as McCombs requested.

Every other NFL experienced coach under Green didn't stay long. And left given any decent opportunity to do so. Very few ever moved as a "promotion".
Monte Kiffin, whom Green inherited from Jerry Burns when he took over.
John Marshall
Willie Shaw
Chris Foerster
John Teerlinck
Tom Batta
Jerry Rhome
Ray Sherman
Foge Fazio
Tom Olivadatti
Dave Atkins
Sherman Lewis
Emmitt Thomas

Stability was never the rule of thumb in Minnesota during those years of 1992-2001.

Green also hired many "unknowns" so to speak. that didn't last long and were never seen or heard much of in the NFL other than their stint there:
Keith Rowan
Gary Zauner
Carl Hargraves
John Levra
Chip Myers
Trent Walters
Hubbard Alexander
Andre Patterson
Alex Wood
Charlie Baggett
John Fontes
John Tice
Fred von Appen
Brian Baker

Tyrone Willingham is the only other assistant that I would term a Green disciple. Green brought him to Minnesota from Stanford. Willingham returned there as HC after serving as RB coach under Green for the Vikings. He is one of the few former assistants that has ever expressed much vocal support of Green once no longer in his employ. Willingham's NFL experience is still very limited.

Wow! I see some people just don't get it.

It doesn't matter who mentored who. It matters that Green was able to find successful assistants for his football program.

 

[TheCardFan]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Dungy left at the first opportunity.
I don't know if you are old enough to remember this yourself, but at the time he took over in Tampa, that wasn't exactly the most ideal situation to be going in to.

LOL..you crack me up!

"Dungy left at the first opportunity"!

Think about that for a moment. How many assistants turn down NFL Head Coaching jobs?

You just don't get it.

You are trying so hard to pimp Fassell that it has clouded your thought process. We all have a favorite and if it's Jim Fassell, we should all get behind him but come on...at least be sensible.

 

[JeffGollin]

Regardless...Dennis Green has an eye for talent. Players and Coaches
Didn't he reach for Underwood?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
Regardless...Dennis Green has an eye for talent. Players and Coaches
Didn't he reach for Underwood?

It wasn't actually a reach. As far as talent goes, Underwood was a great pick at the end of the 1st round....BUT his mental problems came into play after he was drafted.

Green has had problems finding defenders, that's for sure. But he has an uncanny eye for finding offensive talent, and hopefully Graves and the scouting staff can find the defensive gems.

 

[D-Dogg]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
Regardless...Dennis Green has an eye for talent. Players and Coaches
Didn't he reach for Underwood?

Underwood was an INTENSELY talented player, great, great talent. However, he was certifiably nuts. Green thought he could take the problem child and fix him...or at least use his talents on the field, similar to Randy. However, I don't think ANYONE in the league truly understood that Underwood was really, actually, not-joking-around-about-it crazy. And he was.

He had the talent of three men; too bad they were all living in his head together.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by TheCardFan
LOL..you crack me up!

"Dungy left at the first opportunity"!

Think about that for a moment. How many assistants turn down NFL Head Coaching jobs?

You just don't get it.

You are trying so hard to pimp Fassell that it has clouded your thought process. We all have a favorite and if it's Jim Fassell, we should all get behind him but come on...at least be sensible.

Yeah, right, the pot calling the kettle black.

Certainly coaches will seriously consider offers that "advance" their careers. But neither is is uncommon for assistants to turn down HC offers to remain where they are, especially if they don't think the new place is a "step up".

Dungy left at the first offer that came his way. I never said Dungy "hated" Green or anything like it. But neither did he turn down any other offers to stay with him. You can try and put YOUR spin on that however much you want. I don't see YOU backing up any of your comments with anything other than your own "opinion".