Deal going down....VERY SOON

[Covert Rain]

If we trade with Cleveland they better include Moe Williams and JJ. Hicks or it's a horsecrap trade. It would be extremely risky to trade for a guy that is only getting 12 minutes a night and have no idea what your getting in return for just Hicks.

I call BS. The Suns are not this stupid.

 

[jlove]

Here's a post from a guy on RealGM that basically states the way I feel as well about a pending deal with the Cavs.....for Shaq, NOT AMARE!!!

Re: Amare Trade Thread / Suns Trades III

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by Sun Scorched on Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:17 pm

rsavaj wrote:I'm going to laugh if this Cavs trade actually happens....but it ends up being for Shaqtus.
​

That's what my gut tells me. IF something were to happen for Shaq, it would pull a lot of the loose ends and partial stories together.

- There was that article that said that CLE was talking to the Suns, but not about Stoudemire.
- It's still a great ploy for CLE going into the offseason in terms of jersey sales and general excitement
- It's not like they are busting up their core by giving Hickson, Szcerbiak and Snow up
- It fulfills PHX's salary cap requests with Snow's medical retirement and Szcerbiak's buyout

 

[elindholm]

O'Neal to the Cavs instead of Stoudemire is wishful thinking on the Suns' part. It's debatable whether O'Neal is even an upgrade for Cleveland over Ilgauskas.

Even though he's playing well, no one wants O'Neal except for possibly Dallas.

 

[jlove]

O'Neal to the Cavs instead of Stoudemire is wishful thinking on the Suns' part. It's debatable whether O'Neal is even an upgrade for Cleveland over Ilgauskas.

Even though he's playing well, no one wants O'Neal except for possibly Dallas.

Well, with the "proposed" or "presumed" aspects of the deal - Wally, Snow, Hickson and pick - is FAR FROM ENOUGH for Amare. Also, Z is hurt a bit right now, so he could do some more resting and they could also split back-to-backs. Shaq makes more sense for the Cavs than Amare does ESPECIALLY for that package.

 

[elindholm]

Well, with the "proposed" or "presumed" aspects of the deal

... by internet rumor-mongers, you forgot ...

Wally, Snow, Hickson and pick - is FAR FROM ENOUGH for Amare.

And the salaries don't add up, so maybe the Suns are including Barbosa too. No amount of ineptitude would surprise me at this point.

Shaq makes more sense for the Cavs than Amare does ESPECIALLY for that package.

You can't actually mean that the Cavs would rather have O'Neal than Stoudemire, under any circumstances.

 

[Covert Rain]

O'Neal to the Cavs instead of Stoudemire is wishful thinking on the Suns' part. It's debatable whether O'Neal is even an upgrade for Cleveland over Ilgauskas.

Even though he's playing well, no one wants O'Neal except for possibly Dallas.

Shaq is outplaying him in almost every aspect of his game. I think the bigger issue is Shaq's age and contract.

Honestly, as good as Shaq is playing, would it surprise anybody if he went down with some physical problem? Then what? Your stuck with a huge contract and a guy that is one big injury away from calling it quits.

 

[devilalum]

A LOT of people want the Cavs to get a quality player to put with LBJ. I'm sure the league would love this but the Cavs don't have anything to trade. NOTHING!

 

[NYCCavsFan]

I understand the perspective of if you need to make a trade you won't get that. But you don't trade him unless it is a deal like that. If that's not the market because of this or that, then don't trade him even if they want to because it's a bad time to.

Sure those players have more value, but not by much. Amare has years on his side, it doesn't make sense for the Celtics to trade him for KG, but if KG wasn't on the celtics, or a select other few teams, it would make sense for KG's GM to trade him for Amare.

Value can change year in and year out, but so do GM's.

Most GM's can add 2 years to his life of being a GM by landing Amare. Don't underestimate that.

Amare is worth a fortune. Only a select few are worth more, and not by much.

You have to believe that the team Amare goes to is one that he'll sign an extension with, so that is out the window. Otherwise it's already a deal that's worth it by their GM handing over so much. If they want that deal, it's their worry about Amare, it no longer would be our problem.

Again, so if the economy would alter a deal, then do no deal.

We don't have to get rid of him. 'Fair Value' isn't fair. It's market value in the now. As an owner, $arver would have only his own thoughts to blame him for consummating a deal when market value isn't fair value. Amare is Amare, we hold the cards. It's ultimately up to someone else to pry him away, otherwise you happily build around him, even if he isn't perfect.

Agree with a lot of the points you touch on here.

The only things I don't quite see is "You have to believe that the team Amare goes to is one that he'll sign an extension with, so that is out the window."

Didn't he come out yesterday and say something about wanting to go to a contender? I could obviously be mistaken, but I thought he mentioned it in an interview. If that's in fact the case, I wouldn't see him resigning with the Bulls. Obviously a lot can happen in 2 years though, so you never know.

Doug Collins comments on NBATV a bit ago echo what I'm saying. Right now it sounds like dealing Stoudemire is a financial decision and if that's the case receiving fair value in return will be VERY difficult.

 

[slinslin]

He is not going to Cleveland for that crap, say goodbye to that thought. The Suns may turn into the Clippers but not even the Clippers would ever consider something like your Cavs insiders are suggesting.

Of course Amare would resign with the Bulls. The Chicago Bulls are one of the best franchises in the history of the NBA and one of the biggest markets.

The only thing Amare said is that he knows wherever he goes they will will get to the playoffs. Not because he will definately go to a contender but because he is confident enough that he can carry any team with a bit of talent to a playoff spot.

 

[NYCCavsFan]

Well, with the "proposed" or "presumed" aspects of the deal - Wally, Snow, Hickson and pick - is FAR FROM ENOUGH for Amare. Also, Z is hurt a bit right now, so he could do some more resting and they could also split back-to-backs. Shaq makes more sense for the Cavs than Amare does ESPECIALLY for that package.

As a Cavs fan I don't see Hickson being included in a deal for anyone but Stoudemire from the Suns. The Cavs are very high on him as are quite a few NBA scouts. Many have suggested that had he returned to NC State for another year he would be a Top 10 pick in this year's draft.

As for Z vs Shaq, I think the Cavs are perfectly comfortable with Z starting. He was injured earlier this season, but has returned to the lineup. I read somewhere the other day he still wasn't 100%, but he's been contributing.

I'm guessing if there's no deal for Stoudemire to be had with the Cavs then Wally's expiring will probably be traded to the Clippers or the Wizards for Camby, Kaman or Jamison, not Shaq. At least that's what most of the Cleveland writers have suggested recently.

 

[slinslin]

As a Cavs fan I don't see Hickson being included in a deal for anyone but Stoudemire from the Suns. The Cavs are very high on him as are quite a few NBA scouts. Many have suggested that had he returned to NC State for another year he would be a Top 10 pick in this year's draft.

Insert random name instead of Hickson of about 200 late first rounders, 2nd rounders or undrafted rookies over the last 5 years.

The bottom line is, he hasn't done a thing in the NBA so far.

This trade will NEVER happen. It is worse than Gasol to Los Angeles and what you are forgetting is the fact that by making such an Amare trade the Suns will lose more money than they could save by getting under the luxury tax for 2010, because they are out of the playoff picture immediately this year and next year, won't have their own pick in 2010 and annihilate a big part of their fanbase.

 

[NYCCavsFan]

Insert random name instead of Hickson of about 200 late first rounders, 2nd rounders or undrafted rookies over the last 5 years.

The bottom line is, he hasn't done a thing in the NBA so far.

Sorry I must be missing where I said he's currently a stud? All I said is that I think it's unlikely the Cavs include a PF prospect they're very high on to add another aging big man to their front line. With Ilgauskas and Ben Wallace both late in their careers, Hickson is really the only legitimate front line prospect with any type of a low post game on the Cavs roster.

Also, Verajao has an opt out in his contract at the end of this year. If he were to opt out and the Cavs were to include Hickson in a deal for Shaq they'd be left with a front line of Ilgauskas (33), Ben Wallace (34) and Shaq (36) and no cap room to sign a younger big man.

 

[slinslin]

And all I am saying is that Hickson is just another overhyped rookie who hasn't done anything but mysteriously people are high on him, or at least rumors say so and talking about him like he is untouchable.
If the Cavs have a decent trade on the table, Hickson is merely an afterthought.

 

[joshstmarie]

And all I am saying is that Hickson is just another overhyped rookie who hasn't done anything but mysteriously people are high on him, or at least rumors say so and talking about him like he is untouchable.
If the Cavs have a decent trade on the table, Hickson is merely an afterthought.

i havent really read the entire thread but have you watched enough of hickson to make that assumption slin?

 

[NYCCavsFan]

And all I am saying is that Hickson is just another overhyped rookie who hasn't done anything but mysteriously people are high on him, or at least rumors say so and talking about him like he is untouchable.
If the Cavs have a decent trade on the table, Hickson is merely an afterthought.

Fair enough, it's always difficult to judge rookies talent because we don't see that much of them, especially when they're playing on one of the top teams in the league.

Also wanted to ask you guys what you thought about the rumored deal from Chicago? I remember when Thomas came out of LSU he was a name that shot up the draft board with his performance in the NCAA tournament. Since being in the NBA he's put up mediocre numbers. His numbers in February (18 ppg and 10 boards) are significantly above his career averages, so perhaps he's turned the corner.

Are people in PHX satisfied with Gooden, Thomas and Noah (I think that's the latest rumore I heard)? I mean based on Slinslin's logic, Thomas, the key piece in that offer, until the past month was an overhyped 3rd year player. What are your thoughts?

 

[abomb]

NYCCavsFan has a lot of patience putting up with all your knee-jerk self defense.

 

[lou_skywalker]

Fair enough, it's always difficult to judge rookies talent because we don't see that much of them, especially when they're playing on one of the top teams in the league.

Also wanted to ask you guys what you thought about the rumored deal from Chicago? I remember when Thomas came out of LSU he was a name that shot up the draft board with his performance in the NCAA tournament. Since being in the NBA he's put up mediocre numbers. His numbers in February (18 ppg and 10 boards) are significantly above his career averages, so perhaps he's turned the corner.

Are people in PHX satisfied with Gooden, Thomas and Noah (I think that's the latest rumore I heard)? I mean based on Slinslin's logic, Thomas, the key piece in that offer, until the past month was an overhyped 3rd year player. What are your thoughts?

I think the Chicago deal is the best one compared to the Pistons and cavs one. Unlike Hickson we KNOW that Thomas can play well because the loosing team is relying on his performance. He is also a young skilled talent compared to Sheed and Amir and I think Kerr to do this deal if the luxury tax is really hurting Sarver.

 

[slinslin]

Thomas has more talent than Hickson who is a 6'9 PF even if he were all that talented I can't see JJ Hickson ever being more than just a good player.
Thomas at least has a chance to still become an allstar player, Noah not so much but still better than Hickson in my opinion. That and the Bulls have much more valueable draft picks.

Cleveland really has nothing on their roster to be desired except for Lebron. Why trade with them?

And even if the Suns trade Amare, they won't do it for just salary dump because they will shoot themselves in the knee and lose more money by losing Amare for nearly nothing, missing the playoffs until they are forced to rebuild and losing a big part of their fanbase by making such a trade.
The amount they save in 2010 by getting under the luxury tax for that one year can never be that much that it would make up for turning into a much worse team right now, with even less future and less fans.

 

[NYCCavsFan]

NYCCavsFan has a lot of patience putting up with all your knee-jerk self defense.

Haha thanks...I'm an all around Cleveland fan so I like the Cavs, Indians and Browns. You learn to develop some patience rooting for those franchises.

 

[NYCCavsFan]

By the way, not sure if this has been posted anywhere (I'm sure it has, but I just saw it...feel free to delete)

From SI, posted on another cavs forum:

"Other observations from Friday in Phoenix:

• The hot topics were the Heat-Raptors trade, which most players believed to be a step up for Miami, and a rumored Suns-Bulls swap that had Amaré Stoudemire and parts headed to Chicago in exchange for Tyrus Thomas and parts. This was considered enough of a sure thing that Chicago media folks were already making their introductions to Amaré."

@Slinslin - How do you know Thomas has more talent than Hickson?? As joshstmarie said, how much of Hickson have you actually watched? Maybe you're an NBA scout and I'll be totally eating crow, or maybe you're just convinced that since Thomas was a top 10 pick he's clearly more talented.

 

[lou_skywalker]

My point is that we dont know how talented Hickson is. It is kind of a gamble because if Hickson turns out to the useless then we are screwed. With Thomas we clearly see that he has a good potential and getting him here would definitely bring some changes in terms of energy and maybe shotblocking.

 

[slinslin]

Thomas had the much better college career, Thomas has at least shown that he improved every year in the league, Thomas has better athletic ability and Thomas has put together a very good string of games that would be good enough to be a borderline star already if he keeps it going.

I think those are enough reasons to prefer Thomas over Hickson who is playing 10 minutes per game averaging ~4 and ~3 and had 99% of his good games production wise in blowouts.
Basically it is also possible that Hickson is just riding on the coattails of Lebron James, just like Mo Williams is who should never be an allstar.

Plus we could have drafted Hickson ourselves if we wanted to but didn't.

But the bigger problem, neither Thomas nor Hickson will ever be as good as Amare has been over the last few years. So why make that trade? Fans won't like it, Suns won't be better, Suns future won't be brighter.. Sarver will lose more money by trading Amare for purely financial reasons than what he would save.

If he wants to really just save money he needs to trade Richardson, Shaq or something. Between Nash and Amare I am not sure what would be the bigger loss financially for the Suns most likely Amare looking at the long term because Nash doesn't have much left in the tank.

 

[jlove]

By the way, not sure if this has been posted anywhere (I'm sure it has, but I just saw it...feel free to delete)

From SI, posted on another cavs forum:

"Other observations from Friday in Phoenix:

• The hot topics were the Heat-Raptors trade, which most players believed to be a step up for Miami, and a rumored Suns-Bulls swap that had Amaré Stoudemire and parts headed to Chicago in exchange for Tyrus Thomas and parts. This was considered enough of a sure thing that Chicago media folks were already making their introductions to Amaré."

@Slinslin - How do you know Thomas has more talent than Hickson?? As joshstmarie said, how much of Hickson have you actually watched? Maybe you're an NBA scout and I'll be totally eating crow, or maybe you're just convinced that since Thomas was a top 10 pick he's clearly more talented.

here's the link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/chris_ballard/02/14/allstar.notes/index.html?eref=T1

IF the Suns are dealing Amare, it better be for at least this and nowhere near the garbage of the supposed Cavs deal.

AND for those of you who don't think Amare would sign an extension in Chicago, are fooling yourselves.....he'd be closer to his "homes" (Florida and Memphis) than he would here or Cleveland and has ALWAYS stated the fact that he'd love to play there..

 

[NYCCavsFan]

Thomas had the much better college career, Thomas has at least shown that he improved every year in the league, Thomas has better athletic ability and Thomas has put together a very good string of games that would be good enough to be a borderline star already if he keeps it going.

I think those are enough reasons to prefer Thomas over Hickson who is playing 10 minutes per game averaging ~4 and ~3 and had 99% of his good games production wise in blowouts.

Plus we could have drafted Hickson ourselves if we wanted to but didn't.

Thomas had a much better college career?? They both played 1 year:
Thomas - 12.3 ppg, 9.2 rbd, 1.3 ast, 3.1 blk
Hickson - 14.8 ppg, 8.4 rbd, 1 ast, 1.5 blk

Looks pretty similar to me, but regardless, since when is college performance a great barometer for NBA success?

Your other points on Thomas are accurate. He's shown improvement over his first few years of his career. As far as hickson's improvement goes we won't know...which does get to Lou_Skywalkers point that Hickson is a bit of an unknown which I can appreciate.

However, to mention Tyrus Thomas and All Star in the same sentence based on his last 5-10 games is just ridiculous.

I also have to disagree with your analysis of Hickson based on his stats. He's averaging 10 mins per game because he's on one of the best teams in the league with vetran big men. Throw him on a team like the bulls and he'll be playing more consistent minutes. And of course he puts up his stats in garbage time! That's when he plays because he doesn't have a huge role in the rotation.

As far as draft position, I haven't seen enough of Robin Lopez to comment. But what youre telling me is if you had to do it over you'd still draft Lopez over Hickson?

 

[nowagimp]

Thomas has more talent than Hickson who is a 6'9 PF even if he were all that talented I can't see JJ Hickson ever being more than just a good player.
Thomas at least has a chance to still become an allstar player, Noah not so much but still better than Hickson in my opinion. That and the Bulls have much more valueable draft picks.

Cleveland really has nothing on their roster to be desired except for Lebron. Why trade with them?

And even if the Suns trade Amare, they won't do it for just salary dump because they will shoot themselves in the knee and lose more money by losing Amare for nearly nothing, missing the playoffs until they are forced to rebuild and losing a big part of their fanbase by making such a trade.
The amount they save in 2010 by getting under the luxury tax for that one year can never be that much that it would make up for turning into a much worse team right now, with even less future and less fans.

TY thomas is actually a small forward at 6'9" and 215 lb, a taller, 10 lb lighter version of marion. Hickson is 6'9" 242 lbs as a rook, and is likely to get a little stronger/bigger. Thats almost 30 pound difference at the PF. I dont like ty thomas because he cannot defend the PF on the low block with his lack of lower body strength, he gets pushed around down there. Hickson is an amare wannabe, but at least he has a chance to be strong enough to defend the PF, and to have a low post game on offense. I dont care how many shots ty thomas blocks, I have watched him closely defending the low block and I really dont like what I see. I am not interested in trading amare for any of those guys, noah, bla b la bla. Talk chris bosh and I would start to listen.