Do you think Nash still has a chance to win the MVP Award?

[TheFallen49]

Much better? Last time I checked Dirk is still considered one of the softest big men in the NBA. Every time he plays against someone his size, Dirk get's worked. Dirk plays mostly on the perimeter for a reason.

You must read Charley Rosen because that's the only guy I can find who still believes Dirk is soft. He plays on the perimeter because thats what makes him one unique seven footer, but as you can see he can score anywhere and does when the opportunity arises. It's simple, big men - take to the perimeter, small men (ex. Bowen) take in the paint or simply shoot over.



How so? Your saying Nash doesn't deserve it? Your saying he is not as "VALUABLE" if not more to the Suns? Most valuable being the key term.

It's obvious Nash is crucial to the Suns success. We all get it, it's no secret. But there are other ways to assess how valuable a player is than how major and how integrated their role is into a specific system. Ex. If you go by PER then Dirk is the most valuable player because he gives you the most with less (efficiency). There's a million ways to analyze what constitutes valuable but I certainly didn't say Nash doesnt deserve it (he didn't deserve it last year though, so he still has at least one more MVP than I would have given him). I'm still in shock you don't think Dirk makes his team better.

 

[Lorenzo]

unfortunatley it's the MVP for the regular season. It can also be debated that the Suns have better players than Dallas other than Dirk EVEN WITHOUT Amare.

if you read my post before.....i said the same thing. IMO the mavs are clearly a better team than phoenix if you take away amare.....but that's just me. The mavs are still capable of beating phoenix either way. amare will make it much more difficult......and gives phoenix their shot at winning it all. Dirk had a great year last season as well........as did nash. I had no problem with him winning. If i remember correctly a big thing that writers talked about was phoenix being a contender without amare. Now they have amare and he is playing at a high level. So do you give it to nash again when dirk is leading his team to record season? I agree with you though.

 

[Lorenzo]

Also if you have a guy who scores 50 points a game and shoots 85% he would be considered MVP in the league no matter how few assists he had because a normal team averages in the 40's and 50's when it comes to percentile. The rest of the team would have to screw up big time for them to lose on any given night.

Just because Dirk isn't as good at assisting his teammates does not mean he is not the most valuable player for a team.

during the winning streak dirk's assists totals have been up. He has had a few games where he flirted with a triple double. If diop or dampier had better hands maybe he would have got his first in his career. Imagine 31-10-10 from a soft 7ft german. No question dirk is not shaq or duncan down low at either end. But he is a physical player. He has done a better job defensively. He has become the emotional leader of the team that people said he couldn't be. And you can't question his willingness to go to the rack at the offensive end regardless of who is at the basket.

 

[azirish]

Why are the Mavs doing better than the Suns, despite inferior personnel? Obviously their talent is very comparable. What separates the two teams is primarily health. The Suns have been dinged up more than the Mavs and it has made a big difference.

Statistically, the Suns are better on offense while less effective on defense (well duh).

OFFENSE

The Suns average 110.5 ppg shooting 49.4% from the field and 40.1% for three.

The Mavs average 100.4 ppg shooting 46.6% from the field and 38.0% for three.

DEFENSE

Suns opponents scored 102.7 ppg, shooting 45.5% and 34.9% for three. The Suns got out rebounded by 2.3 rpg

Mavs opponents scored 92.2 ppg, shooting 44.8% and 34.9% for three. Their real key advantage is an advantage of 4.3 rpg.

Realistically, the Suns defense and rebounding stats have been hurt by not having KT for so long; but even with him the Mavs are much bigger and better on the boards.

Clearly a matchup between healthy versions of the Suns and Mavs will be interesting. The Mavs are bigger and great on the boards. The Suns are faster and much better shooters. It will be a great contrast in styles.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Even if we are doing as well as them I would still say Dallas has inferior personel besides Dirk.

Maybe I should make a post of which five guys other than Dirk or Nash would you make your starting five if you could chose from both teams. What would you have, one Dallas player, Josh Howard?!

 

[BigBinBigD]

Even if we are doing as well as them I would still say they have inferior personals.

Maybe I should make a post of which five guys other than Dirk or Nash would you make your starting five if you could chose from both teams. What would you have, one Dallas player, Josh Howard?!

What a joke.

 

[elindholm]

Even if we are doing as well as them I would still say they have inferior personals.

Maybe I should make a post of which five guys other than Dirk or Nash would you make your starting five if you could chose from both teams. What would you have, one Dallas player, Josh Howard?!

The point is incoherent, but it's an interesting question. I think I'd go with a small lineup of Stoudemire, Marion, Howard, Barbosa, and Terry. I don't think that much of Terry's PG skills, but he's the best option, and Barbosa can help out a bit with the playmaking duties. Marion and Howard are redundant, but with no viable centers, Stoudemire has to cover that spot, which pushes everyone up a position.

 

[Covert Rain]

You must read Charley Rosen because that's the only guy I can find who still believes Dirk is soft. He plays on the perimeter because thats what makes him one unique seven footer, but as you can see he can score anywhere and does when the opportunity arises. It's simple, big men - take to the perimeter, small men (ex. Bowen) take in the paint or simply shoot over.

I don't need to read Charley Rosen. I watch the Mavs play ever chance I get. Dirk is soft for a big man. Again...Dirk is unique offensively I agree. There are few big men in the NBA with his range. However, Dirk is not a good defender. Period.

he didn't deserve it last year though, so he still has at least one more MVP than I would have given him). I'm still in shock you don't think Dirk makes his team better.

What? What's the basis for him not deserving it last year? His number were better last year then the 1st year he won it. His numbers are better this year. Thank god your not deciding who should get it. If so, you probably would have given Dirk 3 in a row for being a 7 footer with outside range who can't defend.

 

[cardsunsfan]

What a joke.

What do you mean by that?

 

[cardsunsfan]

The point is incoherent, but it's an interesting question. I think I'd go with a small lineup of Stoudemire, Marion, Howard, Barbosa, and Terry. I don't think that much of Terry's PG skills, but he's the best option, and Barbosa can help out a bit with the playmaking duties. Marion and Howard are redundant, but with no viable centers, Stoudemire has to cover that spot, which pushes everyone up a position.

What part is incoherent? the personals phrase? Meant to say Personnel.

Anyways.. I guess I could agree with you that Terry could be in the starting linup but I think Diaw could end up being a better choice. Also he averages about as many assists as Terry with less time and a lot more rebounds also quite a bit better field goal percentage. I also think Terry has around as many assists as he does because he is the primary point guard and doesn't have Steve Nash passing the ball. I bet Diaw could average 7 or 8 assists withouth him.

I guess we could look at the top 7 or 8 players as well and I would think that you could make the case that they would be predominately Suns players.

 

[TheFallen49]

I don't need to read Charley Rosen. I watch the Mavs play ever chance I get. Dirk is soft for a big man. Again...Dirk is unique offensively I agree. There are few big men in the NBA with his range. However, Dirk is not a good defender. Period.

I never said Dirk was an excellent defender, but I also watch as many Suns games as I can and I can honestly say that he is hands down better than Nash defensively because he makes smart plays. The most recent example was his foul on James late in CLE game (then of course he choked his FT's and somehow we still managed to give him TWO chances to tie the game and he blew them, we were lucky). That won't show up statistically but I think it might have saved us the game.

I don't know how you define how tough a player is but for me durability is a major factor and Dirk doesn't miss a lot of time as he plays through many injuries. I could name quite a few other big men who are much softer than Dirk when it comes to injuries who somehow manage to get a "tough" reputation. He may not bang bodies inside much (like I said unless he gets a clear advantage) but he doesn't sit out as much as say Yao Ming or Marcus Camby who are seemingly injured for significant amounts of time every year. Some people believe injuries are inevitable but if you look at the championship Pistons teams starting five they were healthy for the entire season... why? It's not because they weren't banged up, it's because they wanted to win and played through the pain. I know Dirk is banged up sometimes but he still goes out there. Soft indeed.


What? What's the basis for him not deserving it last year? His number were better last year then the 1st year he won it. His numbers are better this year. Thank god your not deciding who should get it. If so, you probably would have given Dirk 3 in a row for being a 7 footer with outside range who can't defend.

He had good numbers, but if you look at other players numbers he wasn't a clear cut choice. The main reason he won it was because Amare was out and they still managed to have a great season which brings us into the whole how valuable Amare is to the team debate (and why he's an all-star if he's just a product of Nash). Lest we forget he still had another all-star in Marion who is incredibly underated by the media for whatever reason and once again... a great supporting cast.

And for the record if I had to give it to someone last year it would have been Lebron. He carried his team, got no help whatsoever and ended the season with beastly stats leading to the teams excellent record (albeit in the east). Hughes which is their second best player was injured for the bulk of the season and Big Z is pretty overated imo, so yes somehow Lebron carried that team and i'm impressed he almost knocked the Pistons off last year. Nash may not have had Amare but he STILL had a much better supporting cast than James. I guess if you had your way you would give it to a point guard three years in a row who can't defend!

 

[Covert Rain]

I never said Dirk was an excellent defender.

He's not a good one either. I can name plays too where Nash has gotten a steal or taken a charge. Nobody is saying that guys like Dirk or Nash are incapable of making good defensive plays. However, neither player is good at defense.

I don't know how you define how tough a player is but for me durability is a major factor and Dirk doesn't miss a lot of time as he plays through many injuries. I could name quite a few other big men who are much softer than Dirk when it comes to injuries who somehow manage to get a "tough" reputation. He may not bang bodies inside much (like I said unless he gets a clear advantage) but he doesn't sit out as much as say Yao Ming or Marcus Camby who are seemingly injured for significant amounts of time every year. Some people believe injuries are inevitable but if you look at the championship Pistons teams starting five they were healthy for the entire season... why? It's not because they weren't banged up, it's because they wanted to win and played through the pain. I know Dirk is banged up sometimes but he still goes out there. Soft indeed.

Your talking about durability. Durability and toughness are two different things. You can have someone who is tough but not very durable. You can have someone durable but is not very tough. Again, Dirk is a soft defender who doesn't like to be very physical with other players of his size. If it wasn't for Dallas playing such good team defense, Dirk would be even more exposed for the soft defender that he is.

He had good numbers, but if you look at other players numbers he wasn't a clear cut choice. The main reason he won it was because Amare was out and they still managed to have a great season which brings us into the whole how valuable Amare is to the team debate (and why he's an all-star if he's just a product of Nash). Lest we forget he still had another all-star in Marion who is incredibly underated by the media for whatever reason and once again... a great supporting cast.

We have already seen last season and this season how well the team plays without Nash even with Amare and/or Shawn in the lineup. Last years runs proved what a clear choice Nash as the MVP really was.

And for the record if I had to give it to someone last year it would have been Lebron. He carried his team, got no help whatsoever and ended the season with beastly stats leading to the teams excellent record (albeit in the east). Hughes which is their second best player was injured for the bulk of the season and Big Z is pretty overated imo, so yes somehow Lebron carried that team and i'm impressed he almost knocked the Pistons off last year. Nash may not have had Amare but he STILL had a much better supporting cast than James. I guess if you had your way you would give it to a point guard three years in a row who can't defend!

We could debate all day how good a player can look when his supporting cast is devoid of talent. Lebron is a great player but his stats wouldn't be what they were if there was anybody else on that team that could play ball. However, that's another debate all together. Many teams have guys who can fill up a stat sheet but their teams are still very bad.

If I had a choice would I give it to a point guard who can't defend but gets everybody on his team involved and can also take over a game? Damn straight. After all you want to give it to a 7 footer who can't defend, gets fewer teammates involved and can shoot.

Have said it before and I will say it again. I wouldn't be against Dirk getting the MVP. However, when comparing him to Nash, Nash deserves it hands down.

 

[greensborohill]

I don't need to read Charley Rosen. I watch the Mavs play ever chance I get. Dirk is soft for a big man. Again...Dirk is unique offensively I agree. There are few big men in the NBA with his range. However, Dirk is not a good defender. Period.




What? What's the basis for him not deserving it last year? His number were better last year then the 1st year he won it. His numbers are better this year. Thank god your not deciding who should get it. If so, you probably would have given Dirk 3 in a row for being a 7 footer with outside range who can't defend.

You don't know jack about the Mavs. Trying having your two front teeth knocked out and not even miss more than a minute of game time. Dude's knees didn't even buckle, he caught his teeth in his hands, went to the back to gauze up and came back and played. THAT is toughness. So didn't give me all that jazz about being soft. It's BS.

 

[Covert Rain]

You don't know jack about the Mavs. Trying having your two front teeth knocked out and not even miss more than a minute of game time. Dude's knees didn't even buckle, he caught his teeth in his hands, went to the back to gauze up and came back and played. THAT is toughness. So didn't give me all that jazz about being soft. It's BS.

So what? Guys get banged up all the time and go back in. Him getting his teeth knocked out was a result of someone else's actions. It's not like he stuck his face in there on purpose knowing his teeth were going to get knocked out. That would of been really tough.

I admit he should get kudos for getting back out there. Was it toughness, dedication or committment? Who knows. Maybe all. However, a few examples of something doesn't make a player tough. Just like a few examples of good defensive plays doesn't make a player a good defender.

I am talking about Dirks day to day play against big men. That is soft. I am talking about a 7 footer who on most teams would be playing center but because of his defensive liabilities can't play other big men so he is a forward. That is soft. Is Dirk the softest player ever? Ofcourse not. Nobody is saying that. However, for Dirk's size he should be a much better defender and should be able to play centers in this league. Nuff said.

 

[elindholm]

I am talking about a 7 footer who on most teams would be playing center but because of his defensive liabilities was moved to PF. That is soft.

Come on, that makes no sense at all. In this league, PFs are tougher defensive assignments than centers. Big guys who don't defend all that well guard centers, not PFs.

Nowitzki is a great player and deserves this year's MVP award. Your pigheaded persistence in this silly argument is making all Suns fans look bad. Please drop it.

 

[Covert Rain]

Come on, that makes no sense at all. In this league, PFs are tougher defensive assignments than centers. Big guys who don't defend all that well guard centers, not PFs.

Nowitzki is a great player and deserves this year's MVP award. Your pigheaded persistence in this silly argument is making all Suns fans look bad. Please drop it.

Depends on the team. Depends on the PF. Their are plenty of stiffs at PF in this league. Dirk can't even cover the good ones at that position either. Never said Nowitzki wasn't great. Never said that I would be upset if he got the MVP. This started because I was responding to a comment on why Dirk deserves it over Nash and the reasoning that was stated was silly. I was countering those points.

To say "ah shucks your right. Dirk deserves the MVP and Nash doesn't". Now that would be silly and make me look like a bad Suns fan. My entire point has been that for every reason Mavs fans say Nash shouldn't get it, I can make one about Dirk. We are suppose to accept the reasons Nash shouldn't get it but not Dirk.

Both are great players in this league. Both should be in the running for MVP. However, to say Dirk should get it hands down is just dumb and silly.

 

[myrondizzo]

Trying having your two front teeth knocked out and not even miss more than a minute of game time. Dude's knees didn't even buckle, he caught his teeth in his hands, went to the back to gauze up and came back and played. THAT is toughness. So didn't give me all that jazz about being soft. It's BS.

i did that when i was 15 years old. i doesnt hurt once the teeth are out.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Funny story,

Back in high school I was playing a pickup game with a bunch of random guys. I gave one guy a big pump fake on the block, and my defender jumped on it. As I went up after, he was coming down. His head came down on mine and we conked heads.

We were both dazed but he was holding his mouth and looked like he was bleeding. I went to see if he was ok, and it looked like he lost his teeth. At around this point I started feeling around my head because it felt swollen. Little did I know he had lodged one of his teeth in my head.

He literally bit on the fake.

 

[Covert Rain]

He literally bit on the fake.

 

[SO91]

This debate has gotten pretty silly. I'm a dieheard Suns fan and I would say right now Dirk deserves the MVP, even if the mavs cool off a bit and still end up with the best record.

As far as the one poster claiming that Nash had a great supporting cast last year, that was not the case at the beginning. They lost 3 starters and had a bunch of unproven players nobody else wanted. Other than Nash, it was Marion, Kurt Thomas and that's about it. LB was still unproven, as was Bell, Diaw and Jones. The fact that they became great, and are now thought of as better than the Mavs supporting cast speaks to how great Nash is and how good this team and system can be.

 

[TheFallen49]

He's not a good one either. I can name plays too where Nash has gotten a steal or taken a charge. Nobody is saying that guys like Dirk or Nash are incapable of making good defensive plays. However, neither player is good at defense.

I'll just agree they are both subpar at defense, I really don't think it will come down to who does more on the defensive end when they hand out the MVP award anyway.

Your talking about durability. Durability and toughness are two different things.

Durability is a part of toughness, therefore Dirk's durability makes him tough. I get what your saying about him not being as physical defender as he could be, but he has two big bodies to do that for him and why risk getting in foul trouble (since up until Howards recent emergence Dirk was the only GOOD player on the Mavs team...).

We have already seen last season and this season how well the team plays without Nash even with Amare and/or Shawn in the lineup. Last years runs proved what a clear choice Nash as the MVP really was.

I don't think your really looking at the big picture. This system is designed to make Nash look good therefore... he looks good. You can clearly see what he does but that doesn't mean other star players don't do just as much if not more. Like I said I could argue that Dirk's PER makes him a better MVP canidate because he doesn't need the ball in his hands every time down the stretch but is efficient when he does get his touches. Nash gets the ball in his hands everytime... and I actually don't know where he ranks PER wise but I know Dirk is the top dog among active players.

We could debate all day how good a player can look when his supporting cast is devoid of talent. Lebron is a great player but his stats wouldn't be what they were if there was anybody else on that team that could play ball. However, that's another debate all together. Many teams have guys who can fill up a stat sheet but their teams are still very bad.

Yes I know the good players on bad teams debate... the problem in this case is Lebrons team wasn't bad. They had the W's despite having no one but Lebron on that team and even made it to the second round (seventh game) of the playoffs. I think he got robbed which might explain his lack of effort this season, he's probably just waiting for the playoffs to turn it up against the inferior East.

If I had a choice would I give it to a point guard who can't defend but gets everybody on his team involved and can also take over a game? Damn straight. After all you want to give it to a 7 footer who can't defend, gets fewer teammates involved and can shoot.

A point guard who gets his team involved? Isn't that what a point guard is SUPPOSED to do? You have to take position into consideration, do you really expect a PF to rack up 11 assists a night and make highlight passes? Like I said, the league is short on true point guards and that makes Nash's numbers impressive. But there have been a million other pg's exactly like him (or better) that didn't get the credit he gets for his teams success. He's not unique in historical context, but Nowitzki is the poster boy for the revolution at the PF spot and as far as I can tell the best seven foot sharpshooter in the history of the game.

Have said it before and I will say it again. I wouldn't be against Dirk getting the MVP. However, when comparing him to Nash, Nash deserves it hands down.

I would be appalled if any analyst believed that. It's easy to see a Suns fans perspective on the case, I get it... Nash makes your entire team work. But it's difficult to make others see why Dirk should get it since he's not the playmaker of the team and we haven't seen Dallas play without him for what... two season now? (He missed the last game of the season last year because we were locked in our seed). He can't be penalized for not seeing his team without him, we don't want to see our team without him... it wouldn't end well.

 

[Lorenzo]

What part is incoherent? the personals phrase? Meant to say Personnel.

Anyways.. I guess I could agree with you that Terry could be in the starting linup but I think Diaw could end up being a better choice. Also he averages about as many assists as Terry with less time and a lot more rebounds also quite a bit better field goal percentage. I also think Terry has around as many assists as he does because he is the primary point guard and doesn't have Steve Nash passing the ball. I bet Diaw could average 7 or 8 assists withouth him.

I guess we could look at the top 7 or 8 players as well and I would think that you could make the case that they would be predominately Suns players.

I would take all of the mavs first......well maybe i'd take amare. This mavs team has played so well together. Terry and harris do a great job sharing the pg position. The mavs can play so many different styles. They have so many different ways that they can score. Terry isn't steve nash....but he is often the guy(other than dirk) who will knock down big shots when the game is on the line. A lot of those shots are because of dirk.
Steel Dog.....most mavs fans the past two years felt that nash was the mvp hands down. Last year i thought dirk had a legit chance......but it wasn't exactly a two horse race. It was nash and all others. This year if the season ended today, it would be dirk winning.....and i think it's clear. Things can change, but that's just the way it is now.

 

[Lorenzo]

He's not a good one either. I can name plays too where Nash has gotten a steal or taken a charge. Nobody is saying that guys like Dirk or Nash are incapable of making good defensive plays. However, neither player is good at defense.

I'll just agree they are both subpar at defense, I really don't think it will come down to who does more on the defensive end when they hand out the MVP award anyway.

Your talking about durability. Durability and toughness are two different things.

Durability is a part of toughness, therefore Dirk's durability makes him tough. I get what your saying about him not being as physical defender as he could be, but he has two big bodies to do that for him and why risk getting in foul trouble (since up until Howards recent emergence Dirk was the only GOOD player on the Mavs team...).

We have already seen last season and this season how well the team plays without Nash even with Amare and/or Shawn in the lineup. Last years runs proved what a clear choice Nash as the MVP really was.

I don't think your really looking at the big picture. This system is designed to make Nash look good therefore... he looks good. You can clearly see what he does but that doesn't mean other star players don't do just as much if not more. Like I said I could argue that Dirk's PER makes him a better MVP canidate because he doesn't need the ball in his hands every time down the stretch but is efficient when he does get his touches. Nash gets the ball in his hands everytime... and I actually don't know where he ranks PER wise but I know Dirk is the top dog among active players.

We could debate all day how good a player can look when his supporting cast is devoid of talent. Lebron is a great player but his stats wouldn't be what they were if there was anybody else on that team that could play ball. However, that's another debate all together. Many teams have guys who can fill up a stat sheet but their teams are still very bad.

Yes I know the good players on bad teams debate... the problem in this case is Lebrons team wasn't bad. They had the W's despite having no one but Lebron on that team and even made it to the second round (seventh game) of the playoffs. I think he got robbed which might explain his lack of effort this season, he's probably just waiting for the playoffs to turn it up against the inferior East.

If I had a choice would I give it to a point guard who can't defend but gets everybody on his team involved and can also take over a game? Damn straight. After all you want to give it to a 7 footer who can't defend, gets fewer teammates involved and can shoot.

A point guard who gets his team involved? Isn't that what a point guard is SUPPOSED to do? You have to take position into consideration, do you really expect a PF to rack up 11 assists a night and make highlight passes? Like I said, the league is short on true point guards and that makes Nash's numbers impressive. But there have been a million other pg's exactly like him (or better) that didn't get the credit he gets for his teams success. He's not unique in historical context, but Nowitzki is the poster boy for the revolution at the PF spot and as far as I can tell the best seven foot sharpshooter in the history of the game.

Have said it before and I will say it again. I wouldn't be against Dirk getting the MVP. However, when comparing him to Nash, Nash deserves it hands down.

I would be appalled if any analyst believed that. It's easy to see a Suns fans perspective on the case, I get it... Nash makes your entire team work. But it's difficult to make others see why Dirk should get it since he's not the playmaker of the team and we haven't seen Dallas play without him for what... two season now? (He missed the last game of the season last year because we were locked in our seed). He can't be penalized for not seeing his team without him, we don't want to see our team without him... it wouldn't end well.

steel dog typed: I wouldn't be against dirk getting the mvp, but when comparing him to nash, nash deserves it hands down?? Well if i were saying the same thing in dirk's favor i would be against nash getting the mvp. That type of statement doesn't make much sense to me. Have you been somewhere besides US Airways arena? maybe you should get some fresh air.

 

[cardsunsfan]

If they were on the free agent market to day for a one year contract, I think it would go Amare, Marion, Howard, Diaw, possibly Terry afterwards, although Barbossas improvement would make many people give him a long look...

 

[Lorenzo]

If they were on the free agent market to day for a one year contract, I think it would go Amare, Marion, Howard, Diaw, possibly Terry afterwards, although Barbossas improvement would make many people give him a long look...

No question Amare would be first. From there are on is where it would just depend on individual opinion. I would take howard over marion because i don't think marion is as talented offensively. in the half court he cannot create his own shot consistently. Marion fell off the radar without nash. He also struggled in the past two losing playoff series' where the transition game was limited. which may be why he has been rumored to be traded. Marion is a better jumper and rebounder. Howard is a good rebounder as well. Both marion and howard play with equal intensity. They are both tough defenders. Don't forget that howard is an up and coming player that has improved his game every year and that will likely continue. I would take barbosa over diaw at this point. Terry fits perfectly in dallas and i doubt he would be more important to any other team outside of dallas....even if his point totals were higher. One maverick that gets overlooked is harris. He is only in his 3rd season, but will likely be a force for years to come. He is very explosive at both ends of the court.