Dragic: My only problem was with GM Ryan McDonough

[Joe Mama]

Its why you saw the Suns trade for Hot Rod Williams, sign Luc Longley, sign that goofy white guy with the goggles, draft Jake Tsikisause.

There has been a long time obsession with height in the NBA.

And there are certain posters on his board who have made it abundantly clear that they do think a guy's measurable are his most important stat.

Not to nitpick, but I will. Big Jake was like a #21 draft pick. If you want to argue that they shouldn't have played him as much I can understand that

 

[BC867]

And there are certain posters on his board who have made it abundantly clear that they do think a guy's measurable are his most important stat.

As one of those certain posters, I think your conclusion is unfair.

A player's "measurable" in the post is not the issue. And it is vague.

The issue is having a presence in the post at C and PF for defense and rebounding as well as scoring. Especially with the game on the line.

And currently, the only one to fill that need -- Alex Len -- hasn't shown that he can withstand the rigors of a full season and stay out of foul trouble, let alone through the playoffs.

Part of that problem is the lack of a power Power Forward to share the load, with lighter players being moved up to power positions.

 

[sunsfan88]

Also, let's not forget that Golden State can go small or big. Sure, it made sense to go small against the Cavs, but they were able to get through Memphis, for example, with a big lineup. Hell, they got passed everyone in the West with size.

Not just Memphis, but even the Cavs. The Warriors don't win the title without David Lee's contributions and Kerr himself said that as well.

 

[Covert Rain]

But you're misconstruing the argument. No one is saying "small wins", they're saying TALENT wins.

Not really. All things being equal (talent 1-5 overall)..if you had two positions where you could pick any two all-stars....big is going to win over small if one team chose to go PG/SG versus PF/C.

 

[Phrazbit]

Not really. All things being equal (talent 1-5 overall)..if you had two positions where you could pick any two all-stars....big is going to win over small if one team chose to go PG/SG versus PF/C.

Jesus...

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. This is not "all things being equal". The entire question is about size vs talent. Would you rather have a smaller team with MORE talent or a bigger team with less?

Traditionally many have argued that size wins, that you "need" a big PF. That clearly is no longer the case.

That every response keeps saying "not really, all things being equal..." ......... maybe I'm being trolled.

 

[mojorizen7]

Jesus...

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. This is not "all things being equal". The entire question is about size vs talent. Would you rather have a smaller team with MORE talent or a bigger team with less?

Traditionally many have argued that size wins, that you "need" a big PF. That clearly is no longer the case.

That every response keeps saying "not really, all things being equal..." ......... maybe I'm being trolled.

You're not being trolled.
But...why would you WANT to construct a team of skilled smallballers?

 

[Phrazbit]

You're not being trolled.
But...why would you WANT to construct a team of skilled smallballers?

Its not about deliberately being small, its more about not wasting resources and playing time on guys that are big purely because they are big. If you can find good, talented big men then GREAT, play them. But for ages the league has been giving playing time to TERRIBLE big men who are only out there because of their height. And finally the league, well at least some of its teams, are getting wise to it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Doesn't a
Doesn't matter how good your bigs are if your pg is bad and can't or won't get him the ball.

 

[sunsfan88]

The Warriors winning may very well be an exception, not the rule.

How many teams in the NBA have the best shooter to ever live on their team? With a guy like Curry whose automatic, things are a lot different.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

To get back on topic, sort of....

Sources: Heat plan to offer Goran Dragic a 5-year, $80M deal

Is $16M per too much for Dragic?

 

[Mainstreet]

To get back on topic, sort of....

Sources: Heat plan to offer Goran Dragic a 5-year, $80M deal

Is $16M per too much for Dragic?

I think for a team in position to win now, it is not too much to pay especially with the CAP rising. IMO, Dragic needs to be the primary ball handler or PG to get the most out of his talent. I don't think he wanted to play the off guard with the Suns.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think for a team in position to win now, it is not too much to pay especially with the CAP rising. IMO, Dragic needs to be the primary ball handler or PG to get the most out of his talent. I don't think he wanted to play the off guard with the Suns.

The thing is that he is mediocre as a distributor. He is a one man fast break who will kill himself to score in the open court.

 

[carrrnuttt]

The thing is that he is mediocre as a distributor.

I really would like to hear your justification for this assessment.

I'm starting to think that Goran did something to you personally. Because I've watched Goran from the very beginning, and nothing I've seen so far gave me this impression.

Just in case you want to cite his "mediocre" stats, I'd like to point out that during his best year on the Suns, Dragic posted almost the same stats as All-Star Damian Lillard did while Goran was playing alongside Eric Bledsoe for most of the season. His team also lost only THREE games less than Damian's did in the same season, despite Goran having the FAR inferior team/teammates between the two of them.

Goran's stats that same year are also VERY similar to the stats that Tony Parker has put up for most of his career, playing with even better teammates/coaches than Goran could ever dream of.

And here's these players' respective PERs for that same season (2013-2014):

Tony Parker - 18.9
Damian Lillard - 18.6
Goran Dragic - 21.4

I'd also like to point out, that despite his poor usage and ridiculous team/coach, Goran had a 16.7 PER with the Suns this past season. With the Heat? 18.8.

You want to know what Eric Bledsoe's PER was these past two seasons?

2013-2014 - 19.6
2014-2015 - 18.4

So if this is your standard for "mediocre," I'd like to see what you'd define as even "good." Because even there, someone like say, Stephen Curry never had stats beyond Goran's 2013-2014 prior to his breakout last two seasons where he become arguably the best shooter in the history of the NBA.

Your turn.

 

[sunsfan88]

I really would like to hear your justification for this assessment.

I'm starting to think that Goran did something to you personally. Because I've watched Goran from the very beginning, and nothing I've seen so far gave me this impression.

Just in case you want to cite his "mediocre" stats, I'd like to point out that during his best year on the Suns, Dragic posted almost the same stats as All-Star Damian Lillard did while Goran was playing alongside Eric Bledsoe for most of the season. His team also lost only THREE games less than Damian's did in the same season, despite Goran having the FAR inferior team/teammates between the two of them.

Goran's stats that same year are also VERY similar to the stats that Tony Parker has put up for most of his career, playing with even better teammates/coaches than Goran could ever dream of.

And here's these players' respective PERs for that same season (2013-2014):

Tony Parker - 18.9
Damian Lillard - 18.6
Goran Dragic - 21.4

I'd also like to point out, that despite his poor usage and ridiculous team/coach, Goran had a 16.7 PER with the Suns this past season. With the Heat? 18.8.

You want to know what Eric Bledsoe's PER was these past two seasons?

2013-2014 - 19.6
2014-2015 - 18.4

So if this is your standard for "mediocre," I'd like to see what you'd define as even "good." Because even there, someone like say, Stephen Curry never had stats beyond Goran's 2013-2014 prior to his breakout last two seasons where he become arguably the best shooter in the history of the NBA.

Your turn.

And I'm also 99.9% sure that he, along with any other Dragic hater (besides slinslin) was singing a different tone about Dragic in 2013-2014 season.

 

[sunsfan88]

To get back on topic, sort of....

Sources: Heat plan to offer Goran Dragic a 5-year, $80M deal

Is $16M per too much for Dragic?

So much for him "getting overpaid and someone will definitely give him the max thank god Suns aren't gonna be forced to match that" theory.

I said it back in February that he won't be getting no max contract offer and that no team that has him or trades for him will be forced into matching the max or whatever. I doubt any other team offers him the 4 year max either.

To answer your question, no with cap rising a good starting caliber guard will be costing about that much money and Miami has to be thinking that pairing him with Bosh may allow him to return to being the all star he was in '13-14 with Frye in the pick & pop. It's not a steal, it's a fair contract imo.

 

[slinslin]

So much for him "getting overpaid and someone will definitely give him the max thank god Suns aren't gonna be forced to match that" theory.

I said it back in February that he won't be getting no max contract offer and that no team that has him or trades for him will be forced into matching the max or whatever. I doubt any other team offers him the 4 year max either.

To answer your question, no with cap rising a good starting caliber guard will be costing about that much money and Miami has to be thinking that pairing him with Bosh may allow him to return to being the all star he was in '13-14 with Frye in the pick & pop. It's not a steal, it's a fair contract imo.

He was never an allstar.

And you are assuming that he already signed for that.

Wouldnt pay him 80M$ either, he is 30 and just not that good.

 

[carrrnuttt]

...and just not that good.

So Tony Parker and Damian Lillard suck too?

Prior to 2013-2014, Stephen Curry "was not that good" as well.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

And I'm also 99.9% sure that he, along with any other Dragic hater

Calling people Dragic "haters" because they don't think he's worth 16+ million is incredibly moronic.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I really would like to hear your justification for this assessment.

I'm starting to think that Goran did something to you personally. Because I've watched Goran from the very beginning, and nothing I've seen so far gave me this impression.

Just in case you want to cite his "mediocre" stats, I'd like to point out that during his best year on the Suns, Dragic posted almost the same stats as All-Star Damian Lillard did while Goran was playing alongside Eric Bledsoe for most of the season. His team also lost only THREE games less than Damian's did in the same season, despite Goran having the FAR inferior team/teammates between the two of them.

Goran's stats that same year are also VERY similar to the stats that Tony Parker has put up for most of his career, playing with even better teammates/coaches than Goran could ever dream of.

And here's these players' respective PERs for that same season (2013-2014):

Tony Parker - 18.9
Damian Lillard - 18.6
Goran Dragic - 21.4

I'd also like to point out, that despite his poor usage and ridiculous team/coach, Goran had a 16.7 PER with the Suns this past season. With the Heat? 18.8.

You want to know what Eric Bledsoe's PER was these past two seasons?

2013-2014 - 19.6
2014-2015 - 18.4

So if this is your standard for "mediocre," I'd like to see what you'd define as even "good." Because even there, someone like say, Stephen Curry never had stats beyond Goran's 2013-2014 prior to his breakout last two seasons where he become arguably the best shooter in the history of the NBA.

Your turn.

Wow, all of this and you did not even understand what I said. I said he is a mediocre distritutor. He is an average passer/distributor. He is a good effecient scorer for a pg, I grant that. But as a player running an offense, he is average. He played more like a 2 than a 1, even when he was running the pg duties.

I don't hate Dragic. I wish he would have stayed here. I think he and Bledsoe could have been a good combo. I am just trying to be honest about his abilities.

Good grief.

 

[Phrazbit]

Wow, all of this and you did not even understand what I said. I said he is a mediocre distritutor. He is an average passer/distributor. He is a good effecient scorer for a pg, I grant that. But as a player running an offense, he is average. He played more like a 2 than a 1, even when he was running the pg duties.

I don't hate Dragic. I wish he would have stayed here. I think he and Bledsoe could have been a good combo. I am just trying to be honest about his abilities.

Good grief.

How dare you besmirch the reputation of All-NBA Saint Goran of Slovenia!


Oh, and I agree with everything you said. He and Bledsoe were a very good pairing, I wished we had both still. But Dragic certainly had his limitations. A great scorer, especially in transition, good shooter, mediocre passer and terrible defender.

 

[JCSunsfan]

How dare you besmirch the reputation of All-NBA Saint Goran of Slovenia!


Oh, and I agree with everything you said. He and Bledsoe were a very good pairing, I wished we had both still. But Dragic certainly had his limitations. A great scorer, especially in transition, good shooter, mediocre passer and terrible defender.

Best short evaluation of Dragic I have seen. He played his heart out here in 2013-14, and I loved him for it.

 

[carrrnuttt]

I said he is a mediocre distritutor. He is an average passer/distributor. He is a good effecient scorer for a pg, I grant that. But as a player running an offense, he is average.

...mediocre passer...

Best short evaluation of Dragic I have seen. He played his heart out here in 2013-14, and I loved him for it.

I'm focusing on this. Because from my personal eye-test, I did not see this at all. Since it's really difficult to convey subjective observation, let's go back to the stats, shall we?

Collated from http://www.basketball-reference.com/

AST% = An estimate of the percentage of teammate field goals a player assisted while he was on the floor.
TOV% = An estimate of turnovers committed per 100 plays.

2013-2014 Season:

Damian Lillard
---------------- 5.6 Assists to 0.8 Steals to 2.4 turnovers | Usage Rate 25.0 | AST% 25.1 | TOV% 11.5

Tony Parker
---------------- 5.7 Assists to 0.5 Steals to 2.2 turnovers | Usage Rate 26.5 | AST% 31.7 | TOV% 12.9

Stephen Curry
---------------- 8.5 Assists to 1.6 Steals to 3.8 turnovers | Usage Rate 28.3 | AST% 39.9 | TOV% 16.1

Eric Bledsoe
---------------- 5.5 Assists to 1.6 Steals to 3.3 turnovers | Usage Rate 24.9 | AST% 27.0 | TOV% 17.8

Goran Dragic
---------------- 5.9 Assists to 1.4 Steals to 2.8 turnovers | Usage Rate 24.5 | AST% 28.1 | TOV% 14.3

So taking into account all the above players' Usage Rates versus all their other numbers, care to analyze and let me know EXACTLY how Goran sticks out in this list? Or are you saying everyone above is mediocre as well?

 

[Phrazbit]

Curry is the only guy on that list who is above average as a distributor.

I don't see how you're so confounded by a PG who averages less than 6 assists a game being a mediocre passer.

 

[carrrnuttt]

This is how I know that you guys are looking at numbers without context. Or are blinded by bias in some form or another.

Curry is the only guy on that list who is above average as a distributor.

That's also because he was/is usually the sole and/or main distributor or at least expected to be when he's on the floor. Even when Eric was injured and out during the 2013-2014 season, we were still attempting the "dual-PG" nonsense with whatever band-aid we happened to be running on the floor with Goran.

In many situations, he was our best scorer on the floor, so he assisted less. However, whatever assists he DID hand out, was handed out at a similar clip and a similar TO rate as any of the others on the list, based on usage.

I don't see how you're so confounded by a PG who averages less than 6 assists a game being a mediocre passer.

Since it's all about this for you, are you saying then that everyone else on this list is "mediocre" as passers? What about Eric, whom many of you championed over Goran? Why is his UTTER mediocrity (based on his turnovers vs his assists) better to stomach than Goran's?

I'm seriously just wanting to know where you guys are getting off denigrating someone while espousing others that are just as "mediocre" as the one you're all attempting to rake over the coals.

 

[elindholm]

Since it's all about this for you, are you saying then that everyone else on this list is "mediocre" as passers? What about Eric, whom many of you championed over Goran? Why is his UTTER mediocrity (based on his turnovers vs his assists) better to stomach than Goran's?

Not that anyone asked my opinion, but I would consider Bledsoe to be a mediocre distributor at best, assuming that the comparison group is NBA guards who start and for whom "point guard" is the most likely position designation.