Eli Manning or Josh McCown?

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Well

Originally posted by spanky1
Well if both were equal......and the operative word here is equal, well the I'd take McCown......and I'd use the draft choice elsewhere.

Remember, your question is....if they are both equal.

Let's get back to posting and not inflaming.....gheez

Gheez.

I'm not inflaming.

Scratch the word equal.

In fact if I had a million I'd bet Eli will be the better NFL QB.

You say Josh willl be a better NFL QB than Eli.

I hope you're right cause if you're wrong and we pass on Eli or Big Ben we'll suck for decades....again.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Shane H
You guys can laugh at Ryans comments all you want but it really does make some semblence of sense.

Josh has shown an ability at this level in his last four games.

Can you honestly say that Eli has shown any level of ability at the NFL level? NO!

Most of you are going on name recognition which is fine. But if the exact same person in the exact same body had the exact same stats in college and didnt have a dad and brother named Manning how many of you would be harping on drafting him if he was Billy Jones????

If I had to guess not near as many!

McCown has all the physical tools to be able to suucceed at this level. Time will tell and I have faith in Greens ability to judge a QB!

Hey Shane I respect your opinion. I just dont happen to agree with it. Like Cheese said though, Green has to be given some leeway here as he has proven that he can obviously coach QB's. If he isnt bluffing on not taking a QB, lets just hope for the best.

What I do have a problem with however is not having a backup plan to McCown and thats what Eli or Roth would be. I dont think anyone here believes in Shaun King for the longterm.....

McCown has very limited NFL experience, but yes he has had some. There is a great bit of difference between coming in and starting the last 4 games for a lame duck coach, on a lame duck team, with no expectations at all then being the leader of the team, having the reigns, learning a new system, having a new coach, and being successful.. (furthermore he won 1 game of 4)

I have no problem with McCown starting this year, but if/when he fails I dont want to be back in this same position where the Cards HAVE to now go after a QB in the draft.

As far as Eli goes well I have watched him a great deal and think he is the best QB in the draft and represents the best value. Sure Roth or Rivers might be outstanding in years to come, but for my money you cant go wrong with Eli Manning. He has it all (including the pedigree, the football mind, QB mentality etc) and I would be hard pressed to not draft him if for whatever reason he is still on the board at #3~

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Re: Re: Yes

Originally posted by Shane H
McCown has no more flop potential that Manning!

Other than he came from a Divison II school, was not highly rated, and was not even being considered as a 1st round pick?

McCown has plenty of bust potential! Problem is you have to have some sort of expectations for a guy before you can say he is a bust! McCown has/had none!

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Hey Shane I respect your opinion. I just dont happen to agree with it. Like Cheese said though, Green has to be given some leeway here as he has proven that he can obviously coach QB's. If he isnt bluffing on not taking a QB, lets just hope for the best.

What I do have a problem with however is not having a backup plan to McCown and thats what Eli or Roth would be. I dont think anyone here believes in Shaun King for the longterm.....

McCown has very limited NFL experience, but yes he has had some. There is a great bit of difference between coming in and starting the last 4 games for a lame duck coach, on a lame duck team, with no expectations at all then being the leader of the team, having the reigns, learning a new system, having a new coach, and being successful.. (furthermore he won 1 game of 4)

I have no problem with McCown starting this year, but if/when he fails I dont want to be back in this same position where the Cards HAVE to now go after a QB in the draft.

As far as Eli goes well I have watched him a great deal and think he is the best QB in the draft and represents the best value. Sure Roth or Rivers might be outstanding in years to come, but for my money you cant go wrong with Eli Manning. He has it all (including the pedigree, the football mind, QB mentality etc) and I would be hard pressed to not draft him if for whatever reason he is still on the board at #3~

Can you look me in the eye and tell me that McCown doesnt have every ounce of "physical skill" that Manning has?

Could you honestly say that you would be this high on Manning if his name was Billy Smith with no family history?

Ok so say McCown does flop. What then we draft another franchise QB next year with very little cap ramifications. What if you take Eli and he flops? Your cap is screwed and you are still looking for a QB the next year.

So I dont buy the argument that we will be in the same place looking for a franchise QB. Because the same can be said when or if Manning didnt pan out.

Oh and I happen to think that King is a decent QB who was in a bad situation in TB but thats just me!

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by DevonCardsFan
My thoughts exactly, in todays NFL you don't need a superstar at QB to win.

I dont really agree with that. Sure there has been a lot made of Brady and Delhomme but if you check Brady's stats he is a better-than-good QB and isnt a superstar more b/c of the market than b/c of his success.

If you look at the teams who make the playoffs consitently they all do have 'superstar' QB's. Just b/c one made it to the SuperBowl this year doesnt mean thats the norm!

Besides that, how do we know McCown is anything other than a Div. II flop? I wouldnt categorize him as even an average QB at this point!

 

[Tangodnzr]

Re: Re: What?

Originally posted by BuckeyeCardinal
OOps.....make it 11-4 Eli ahead....must be 11 idiots voting.

Aww c'mon now, there's a heck of a lot more than 11 idiots posting on this board.

....if not...then things are REALLY looking up around here.

 

[spanky1]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well

Originally posted by BuckeyeCardinal
Gheez.

I'm not inflaming.

Scratch the word equal.

In fact if I had a million I'd bet Eli will be the better NFL QB.

You say Josh willl be a better NFL QB than Eli.

I hope you're right cause if you're wrong and we pass on Eli or Big Ben we'll suck for decades....again.

Scratching the word equal changes everything.... it's not that easy when you are trying to make a point!

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Re: Re: Re: What?

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Aww c'mon now, there's a heck of a lot more than 11 idiots posting on this board.

....if not...then things are REALLY looking up around here.

Tango.....that's a keeper.

 

[AZCB34]

McCown comes from a D1AA school, not D2.

McCown's limited NFL experience is still vastly more than Eli or Ben has.

Unless you can assure me with no possibility of flopping that Eli or Ben are the real deal...remember ironclad guarantee that they will succeed...I go for the position player where the need is much greater.

Of course, I have always been for McCown.

Not drafting Eli or Ben will not set this franchise back. They will just address it down the road. McCown has the tools and now has some experience. He also will get coaching better than he likely has had up to now.

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Yeah

"Not drafting Eli or Ben will not set this franchise back. They will just address it down the road. "

I'll be dead by then.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well

Originally posted by spanky1
Scratching the word equal changes everything.... it's not that easy when you are trying to make a point!

Maybe he could change it to:
Eli or McCown?...but you can only vote for someone who's had an older brother and father who played in the NFL. No one who played at a division team 11 in Texas is eligible either.

That way he could be more sure of getting the answer he wanted.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Shane H
Can you look me in the eye and tell me that McCown doesnt have every ounce of "physical skill" that Manning has?

Could you honestly say that you would be this high on Manning if his name was Billy Smith with no family history?

Ok so say McCown does flop. What then we draft another franchise QB next year with very little cap ramifications. What if you take Eli and he flops? Your cap is screwed and you are still looking for a QB the next year.

So I dont buy the argument that we will be in the same place looking for a franchise QB. Because the same can be said when or if Manning didnt pan out.

Oh and I happen to think that King is a decent QB who was in a bad situation in TB but thats just me!

I got no probalem with King on this team. Good move as a #2.

I can honestly say that Manning, from the games I have watched, has everything it takes to be a great NFL QB. Manning, Jones, Smith, whatever you want to call him. His name certainly doesnt hurt in the big scheme of things, but he is not rated this high just b/c of his last name!

And for get cap ramifications. I am talking about development. If mCown flops then your back in the same position again. Trying to get another QB via the draft, (if there even is one, right now Walters and Leinhart are supposed to be the 'great QB's of 05'-Neither have the skills of Manning or Roth or even Rivers IMO) you have just set yourself back AT LEAST a year if not longer. King will be the starter while next years rookie sits and learns.

No Thank You!

Take the BPA and if Manning is on the board at #3 it HAS to be him!

 

[Shane]

Re: Re: Re: Yes

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Other than he came from a Divison II school, was not highly rated, and was not even being considered as a 1st round pick?

McCown has plenty of bust potential! Problem is you have to have some sort of expectations for a guy before you can say he is a bust! McCown has/had none!

Actually it was stated that he was very high on other teams draft boards as well saying that he would most likely have been the next QB selected after Ramsey by some other team had it not been the Cardinals.

I dont see the relevancy of division II? Tell that to Steve Mcnair and Daunte Culpepper.

We do have some sort of expectation from the guy. That being his naturla physical ability and the decent games he had last year at an NFL level regardless of a lame duck coach.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by AZCB34
McCown comes from a D1AA school, not D2.

McCown's limited NFL experience is still vastly more than Eli or Ben has.

Unless you can assure me with no possibility of flopping that Eli or Ben are the real deal...remember ironclad guarantee that they will succeed...I go for the position player where the need is much greater.

Of course, I have always been for McCown.

Not drafting Eli or Ben will not set this franchise back. They will just address it down the road. McCown has the tools and now has some experience. He also will get coaching better than he likely has had up to now.

He comes from Sam Houston St.

You act as if getting a QB to lead your team to the SuperBowl is like picking apples at the grocery store: "..they will just address it down the road' If that were the case the Cards would already have a franchise QB now wouldnt they?

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK

And for get cap ramifications. I am talking about development. If mCown flops then your back in the same position again. Trying to get another QB via the draft, (if there even is one, right now Walters and Leinhart are supposed to be the 'great QB's of 05'-Neither have the skills of Manning or Roth or even Rivers IMO) you have just set yourself back AT LEAST a year if not longer. King will be the starter while next years rookie sits and learns.

I dont ge tthis argument because that will be the same exact scenario if Manning were to flop!

Yet it would be doubly worse because you would still have the cap problems as well so you cant just forget them.

Why does that argument fly with McCown not Manning????

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Yes

Originally posted by Shane H
Actually it was stated that he was very high on other teams draft boards as well saying that he would most likely have been the next QB selected after Ramsey by some other team had it not been the Cardinals.

I dont see the relevancy of division II? Tell that to Steve Mcnair and Daunte Culpepper.

We do have some sort of expectation from the guy. That being his naturla physical ability and the decent games he had last year at an NFL level regardless of a lame duck coach.

But they didint start out at a Division I school (If you can really call SMU division I) and couldnt cut it.!

Look, again, My problem is not so muich with McCown starting this year as it is with setting this franchise back if he flops. Say all you want about getting a QB next year, Qb's like Manning and even Roth dont come around every year. Are you really willing to put all your eggs in McCowns basket and NOT draft a QB at #3 if they are there?

To me it is a no brainer, and if Mcown does well-Great! Having 2 good QB's on the roster is not the worse thing tat could happen!

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Maybe he could change it to:
Eli or McCown?...but you can only vote for someone who's had an older brother and father who played in the NFL. No one who played at a division team 11 in Texas is eligible either.

That way he could be more sure of getting the answer he wanted.

My bad.


Was I thinking of Peyton Manning?

Was I thinking of Josh's brother?

Was I thinking of Cade McNown?

Talkin about Geesh.

It's not my answer....I can only vote once.

Sorry your guy lost.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
He comes from Sam Houston St.

You act as if getting a QB to lead your team to the SuperBowl is like picking apples at the grocery store: "..they will just address it down the road' If that were the case the Cards would already have a franchise QB now wouldnt they?

So McCown cannot be the answer? He cannot be the franchise QB? He cannot lead the Cards to the SB?

In a way it is like apples, except you can be alot more sure of the apple by looking at it than the QB.

If McCown doesn't work, they will address it later. If they draft Manning and he doesn;t work out...well my guess is they would address it later. No?

Sam Houston St is D1AA...unless they have fallen dropped into a lower division but when McCown was with them, they were D1AA and kncoked NAU out of the playoffs

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Shane H
I dont ge tthis argument because that will be the same exact scenario if Manning were to flop!

Yet it would be doubly worse because you would still have the cap problems as well so you cant just forget them.

Why does that argument fly with McCown not Manning????

Because I am not asking thsi team to strictly rely on Manning until after they know he is the real deal. We are relying on McCown w/o a shred of evidence the kid can play (lame duck games, lame duck coach doesnt really count).

If Manning is drafted, sits a year, starts next year, doesnt fare well, at least you have other options you can be looking into while Manning is "flopping"

Right now, if McCown fails, you have to wait another year for a QB who isnt as talented as Manning or Roth, it cost you more money as next years draft slots will be more money paid than this year, and in the meantime you set your teams development back a full year b/c you didnt draft a QB when you had the chance!

 

[arthurracoon]

Re: Re: Re: Yes

Originally posted by BuckeyeCardinal
So if Mannings there we pass on him?

There you go!



In other words: yes!

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by AZCB34


If McCown doesn't work, they will address it later. If they draft Manning and he doesn;t work out...well my guess is they would address it later. No?

I guess thats the simplified way to look at it. So yes you are right they techincally do "address it later on down the road...." in every instance.

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Yes

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Because I am not asking thsi team to strictly rely on Manning until after they know he is the real deal. We are relying on McCown w/o a shred of evidence the kid can play (lame duck games, lame duck coach doesnt really count).

If Manning is drafted, sits a year, starts next year, doesnt fare well, at least you have other options you can be looking into while Manning is "flopping"

Right now, if McCown fails, you have to wait another year for a QB who isnt as talented as Manning or Roth, it cost you more money as next years draft slots will be more money paid than this year, and in the meantime you set your teams development back a full year b/c you didnt draft a QB when you had the chance!

Well said Freak.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Because I am not asking thsi team to strictly rely on Manning until after they know he is the real deal. We are relying on McCown w/o a shred of evidence the kid can play (lame duck games, lame duck coach doesnt really count).

If Manning is drafted, sits a year, starts next year, doesnt fare well, at least you have other options you can be looking into while Manning is "flopping"

Right now, if McCown fails, you have to wait another year for a QB who isnt as talented as Manning or Roth, it cost you more money as next years draft slots will be more money paid than this year, and in the meantime you set your teams development back a full year b/c you didnt draft a QB when you had the chance!

If you draft Manning you are putting all your eggs in that basket. Based on his salary alone and the lengthy history of losing by this team you have no choice but to put all your eggs in his basket.

So I respectfully disagree. I also disagree that the Cards are putting all there eggs In McCowns basket either, IE King.

Lastly What is it with lame Duck Games and Lame Duck coach? They do count. Two of those games were against playoff bound teams knocking one of them out. So it is relevant to this discussion and to the talk about the promise that he has shown.

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Eggs

I'd put some of my eggs in McCowns basket because he has "potential"....so if we don't draft a QB I won't commit suicide....but if this happens:

"So I respectfully disagree. I also disagree that the Cards are putting all there eggs In McCowns basket either, IE King."

If we put all our eggs in Kings basket I may reconsider.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
I got no probalem with King on this team. Good move as a #2.

I can honestly say that Manning, from the games I have watched, has everything it takes to be a great NFL QB. Manning, Jones, Smith, whatever you want to call him. His name certainly doesnt hurt in the big scheme of things, but he is not rated this high just b/c of his last name!

And for get cap ramifications. I am talking about development. If mCown flops then your back in the same position again. Trying to get another QB via the draft, (if there even is one, right now Walters and Leinhart are supposed to be the 'great QB's of 05'-Neither have the skills of Manning or Roth or even Rivers IMO) you have just set yourself back AT LEAST a year if not longer. King will be the starter while next years rookie sits and learns.

No Thank You!

Take the BPA and if Manning is on the board at #3 it HAS to be him!

No it only HAS to be him in YOUR mind.

How about we spend a little more time on the "What if" ....
Manning flops. So this year is written off?
Manning is not going to start this year, even if drafted. You admit that much, yourself.
So what Josh does then this year is immaterial?
What if he leads the team well into the playoffs?
So then you scrap him next year for your "can't miss, draftee?"
...or inferring from your line of reasoning....If McCown fails then its all on Mannings shoulders in 2005, where he would be "starting" with 1 year on the bench. What if he fails then?
Talk about setting things back a few years.

You seem to keep ignoring it when others have posted:
"Mannings failure potential is just as great, Josh's".
And Manning doesn't have the benifit of 2 years in the NFL.