Eli Manning or Josh McCown?

[Cheesebeef]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yes

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
It seems your the one obsessed witht he last name, not me.

Man is that on the money. Did any of you guys watch Eli play last year - I did because I was scared to detah we would draft him and get the lesser Manning - and then you know what happened - instead of just thinking about his name - I actually watched the kid play - on a poopy team and led them to a great record and an impressive run - He actually changed my mind with his play - not his name - to me his name was hindering him in my eyes - I think it's still doing the same for the doubters.

I mean come on - If not for prevent defense and a onside kick - our offense scored 6 points for 558 minutes against a pathetic defense in the Vikings game - and we lost the other three games - one in which the kid threw an INT for a touchdown that was the difference in the game - I'm not really sure what kind of commodity all that makes him - but it sure as hell doesn't make him proven IMO by any stretch. But again I will defer to what ever Denny thinks is best at QB - he's the man as far as gauging that position.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
No it only HAS to be him in YOUR mind.

How about we spend a little more time on the "What if" ....
Manning flops. So this year is written off?
Manning is not going to start this year, even if drafted. You admit that much, yourself.
So what Josh does then this year is immaterial?
What if he leads the team well into the playoffs?
So then you scrap him next year for your "can't miss, draftee?"
...or inferring from your line of reasoning....If McCown fails then its all on Mannings shoulders in 2005, where he would be "starting" with 1 year on the bench. What if he fails then?
Talk about setting things back a few years.

You seem to keep ignoring it when others have posted:
"Mannings failure potential is just as great, Josh's".
And Manning doesn't have the benifit of 2 years in the NFL.

If Manning flops? I dont understand the relevance. We can say everyone has the potential to flop. The thing to do is udnerstand that and put a plan in place to address it. Drafting Manning would be such a plan.

Let me clear this up. If MCown flops you have Shaun King. Is that what you want? If you draft Manning at least you have someone this team can fall back on. Of coutrse you could draft one of the many hundreds of great QB's that come out of college each year

If McCown lead this team to the playoffs then you have what? 2 good QB's on the roster. so what? There are many other things worse than having that arent there? You have choices to make. If you dont draft a QB now then you have this same scenario play out next year....

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Proven exactly what?

That he can play and lose 3 of 4 games???

Sorry bro but you must have missed something in my retort.

That was my answer to if we did draft Eli and McCown were to have a world beater season. The guy asked what would you do then keep Manning or McCown.

I answered you would keep McCown because he would be the proven commodity in that scenario.

 

[Shane]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yes

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Man is that on the money. Did any of you guys watch Eli play last year - I did because I was scared to detah we would draft him and get the lesser Manning - and then you know what happened - instead of just thinking about his name - I actually watched the kid play - on a poopy team and led them to a great record and an impressive run - He actually changed my mind with his play - not his name - to me his name was hindering him in my eyes - I think it's still doing the same for the doubters.

I mean come on - If not for prevent defense and a onside kick - our offense scored 6 points for 558 minutes against a pathetic defense in the Vikings game - and we lost the other three games - one in which the kid threw an INT for a touchdown that was the difference in the game - I'm not really sure what kind of commodity all that makes him - but it sure as hell doesn't make him proven IMO by any stretch. But again I will defer to what ever Denny thinks is best at QB - he's the man as far as gauging that position.

First off if you like soley based on what you see then I commend you. The simple fact is that most people would care two cents about the guy if his name isnt Manning. Shoot probably 70% of the people that rave about this guy have to throw in the pedigree.

Your second paragraph is some nice spin though, I really liked that. Yea so what we lost three out of four games. Whats the relevancy to the situation. Troy Aikman went 1-15 his first year does that mean he was going to stink? NO!

The bottom line is that as much as you guys like to point out his record over those four games, this is still a team sport and it always will be. McCown had to work with arguably the worst set of WRs in all the NFL and a line that was providing little protection. In fract they flat out sucked and you all know it. Thats why we are all calling for an o-line upgrade via FA.

So he threw an Int for a TD? Big deal happens to every young QB Heck I have seen Peyton Manning throw like 8 returned for TDs in one season.

The fact remains that with the totality of what was seen it has been determined by Green and others that the kid is NFL material. It was also seen by many on this board.

McCown is our franchise QB right now and I suppose some of us should get used to it.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Shane H
Sorry bro but you must have missed something in my retort.

That was my answer to if we did draft Eli and McCown were to have a world beater season. The guy asked what would you do then keep Manning or McCown.

I answered you would keep McCown because he would be the proven commodity in that scenario.

woops

Sorry about that. I got people coming at me in all directions!

I dont know who you would keep really. It depends on who the coaches believe would give the team the best chance at winning the superbowl

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
If Manning flops? I dont understand the relevance. We can say everyone has the potential to flop. The thing to do is udnerstand that and put a plan in place to address it. Drafting Manning would be such a plan.

Ok...so McCown has the ptoential to flop...so you suggest the Cards draft Manning to plan for that possibility. If McCown flops, then you make Manning the starter next year but the same issue presents itself....Mannings flop potential, and it doesn't matter if it is high or low. You would then draft another QB just in case?

Wouldn;t that be an endless cycle of drafting QBs every year just in case one flops since you cannot predict the future?

EDIT: I am not against drafting a QB necessarily but think the Cards should go in a different direction since there are clearly other holes to fill.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yes

Originally posted by Shane H


The fact remains that with the totality of what was seen it has been determined by Green and others that the kid is NFL material. It was also seen by many on this board.

McCown is our franchise QB right now and I suppose some of us should get used to it.

just like David Barrett is the starting corner for this team for years to come, right Shane?

As far as "many on this baord" and what they think about McCown - there were "many on this board" who told me I was a ****** for thinking we'd be terrible last year - or that David Barrett shouldn't and wouldn't be coming back this season - or that Emmitt was washed up - or that Coach Mac was a terrible coach an was just being strung along until the season was over so they could fire his ass - or that Rudi Johnson wouldn't be able to even make our roster - so excuse me if I don't fall in line with McCown is our man because most of the poeple championing this idea told me I was crazy about all of the above and well we've seen how all of that has turned out.

HOWEVER, I have no problem if Denny decides to pass up on Manning if he's there because Dennis Green has shown the ability to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t at the QB position (not saying Josh is either - book's still out on him) - but until the draft comes and goes - I don't think anyone can definitively say that we have our qb - much less a Franchise Quarterback - afterall - was McCown even one of those five guys listed by Green who was going to be definite starters?

I mean you state this as if it were fact - and most of us are just putting it up for discussion - I just don't see what reasons you have to be so animated about it.

 

[Shane]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yes

Originally posted by cheesebeef
just like David Barrett is the starting corner for this team for years to come, right Shane?

As far as "many on this baord" and what they think about McCown - there were "many on this board" who told me I was a ****** for thinking we'd be terrible last year - or that David Barrett shouldn't and wouldn't be coming back this season - or that Emmitt was washed up - or that Coach Mac was a terrible coach an was just being strung along until the season was over so they could fire his ass - or that Rudi Johnson wouldn't be able to even make our roster - so excuse me if I don't fall in line with McCown is our man because most of the poeple championing this idea told me I was crazy about all of the above and well we've seen how all of that has turned out.

HOWEVER, I have no problem if Denny decides to pass up on Manning if he's there because Dennis Green has shown the ability to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t at the QB position (not saying Josh is either - book's still out on him) - but until the draft comes and goes - I don't think anyone can definitively say that we have our qb - much less a Franchise Quarterback - afterall - was McCown even one of those five guys listed by Green who was going to be definite starters?

I mean you state this as if it were fact - and most of us are just putting it up for discussion - I just don't see what reasons you have to be so animated about it.

I am no more animated than anyone else and this is just a discussion that I have given a long list of reasons why I feel we should take a pass on Manning.

I say he is our franchise QB because he is the one who will be starting and running this team come day one of training camp Per Green and no other reason.

That being said I hope and prey we trade down to say 5 or 6 draft Sean Taylor and then at #33 Derrick Strait That would make our secondary very formiddable and would do the best IMHO towards making this a complete and competative team!

Come on Cheese wouldnt you be happy if that happened too?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yes

Originally posted by Shane H


Come on Cheese wouldnt you be happy if that happened too?

SHANE!!!!!!!! Read my entire posts! Yeah man, of course I'd be stoked - and like I said - whatever decision Denny makes I know will be the right one based on his experience with QBs throughout his career - I'm just not sold on the kid yet - I saw some good things from him - but I also know that he is a Mac guy (in my mind - NEVER a good thing) - he transferred out of Div 1 down to AA - not a great sign either - and he wasn't picke duntil the third round and even then he was considered a project player - but if Denny wants him - I have faith - I just hope you try to do the same if we did pick a QB - and maybe you don't know the answer - but was JOsh one of those 5 starters Denny mentioned? I didn't think his name was in there - could be wrong.

As far as Taylor - I just don't know about that one - he could be the next Ronnie Lott - he could be the next Shaun Williams - his bust quotient is just as high as anyone else's - and even though he's a Cane - and I lvoe players from Miami in the NFL - his workouts and attitude have not been stellar so far.

BUT!!! I do agree that if we just went out - signed Darrell Jackson and Bobby Taylo - then I really wouldn't give a crap who we took in the draft, because that team would be ready to roll. Sadly that's not gonna happen - let's hope for Bobby Taylor and trust whatever Green does with his first pick - that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[KingofCards]

After reading this thread I just got scared of McCown again.

I remember him reminding me too much of Jake. Jumping out of the pocket too early and dancing and looking indecisive often.

I mean the guy is tough and can run and is elusive as well, but he has those happy feet. Those happy feet scare me. He seems like he has a much better arm than Jake, but anything that reminds me of Jake somehow scares me. And Josh reminds me of a bigger, stronger, faster Jake.

Here we go again, at least he didn't play for ASU.

 

[AZCB34]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yes

Originally posted by cheesebeef
but was JOsh one of those 5 starters Denny mentioned? I didn't think his name was in there - could be wrong.

I think it was.

Quan
Kendall
McKinnon
McCown

and

....................damn I can't remember.

But I think if the right thing happens (in Green's mind), even this list can change.

 

[Shane]

Hey if we do sign a QB Ill wont go throwing a tantrum there are worst things we could do with the pick dont get me wrong.

Besides Manning could garner a trade on pedigree alone

I certainly wish that we could sign Jackson and Taylor pre-draft. That easily make me happy as I have been in light years about this team. But like you said not gonna happen

 

[Assface]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yes

Originally posted by AZCB34
I think it was.

Quan
Kendall
McKinnon
McCown

and

....................damn I can't remember.

But I think if the right thing happens (in Green's mind), even this list can change.

Thompson.

 

[Red Air Force]

We have to have a backup plan.

I think Josh will be very good, but I wouldn't put money on it. Knowing that, means that now I need to protect myself in case this season is a wash.

Shaun King is a backup quaterback. He doesnt have a basket. His role is to come in for a couple of games if the starter gets hurt. No plans involving a whole season should be made around him. Also, as good as we "think" Parsons may lookin in TC, he is a UDFA. He doesn't get a basket either.

So...since EVERYONE agrees that you shouldn't put all you eggs in one basket, we need to identify another plan.

In that case you put a few eggs in McCown's basket, and say show me what you got. But since we're smart, we go ahead use that 3rd round pick that we hope we will never have again, and draft a QB.

Now...just in case...we have another basket to put some eggs in if McCown sucks, and the season goes down the tubes.

BEST CASE SCENARIO

McCown is the second coming and takes us to the playoffs. We are now faced with the truly HORRIBLE descision of having to choose between TWO good QBs, but why don't we wait until we are in that situation before we debate it.

WORST CASE SCENARIO

We don't draft a QB, and McCown tanks big time. We now have a team that is nearly built with no one to lead them. We end up either have to sign the best available retread (Blake, Grahm, Chandler, Burlien, McMahon, Esiasion), or conceede ANOTHER year and draft whatever rookie falls to us.

 

[vikesfan]

Here is the worst case scenairo Eli or Ben busts like most 1st round QBs do. You just wasted the #3 pick in the draft for a team that has plenty of holes.

If Josh flops he doesn't cost you a 1st round pick at #3. There will be more franchise QBs in the draft next year. There will be more name QBs cut in FA next year.

Don't gamble with high draft picks.

Here is the back up plan. Take a QB in the later rounds or FA. You have just as much chance to win a SB using that kind of QB.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by AZCB34
Ok...so McCown has the ptoential to flop...so you suggest the Cards draft Manning to plan for that possibility. If McCown flops, then you make Manning the starter next year but the same issue presents itself....Mannings flop potential, and it doesn't matter if it is high or low. You would then draft another QB just in case?

Wouldn;t that be an endless cycle of drafting QBs every year just in case one flops since you cannot predict the future?

EDIT: I am not against drafting a QB necessarily but think the Cards should go in a different direction since there are clearly other holes to fill.

First off. Unless you agree the QB position is the most important position in football then we got nothin' to talk about.

Second, I am not saying an endless cycle of drafting QB after QB. Its called finding YOUR QB of the future. If your convinced that is Josh McCown fine, but what if it isnt? You stick with Shaun King and hope he can lead you? Why wouldnt you take a QB now and groom him to be your future?

Look at Cincy. Think they are pissed they have, what they believe are 2 good QB's on the roster? I doubt it. Now they can go into the season knowing they are set at QB. If Palmer goes down or is bad, turn to Kitna. They still have a chance to win.

What happens if McCown goes down? What then? Your future 'Franchise' QB is not even on the roster yet, so you turn to King in hopes he can be "It" for the next few years? In the meantime re-drafting the QB you should have taken this year and wasting another year or 2 trying to get your 'future' set.

We have been so used to having flop after flop at QB that we dont know a great QB when we see it. We have been repeatedly conditioned to think that the likes of Plummer, McCown, and Blake can lead this team to the SuperBowl and I am tired of 'experiments". We need to go out and select a QB that can be the future of this team and lead this team the way Favre or McNair or the elder Manning has done for their respective teams.

If you think Josh is it, fine I hope I am wrong, but if he isnt, I am not ready to succumb to the fact that no backup plan is needed. Slice it anyway you want to, McCown is a huge risk!

 

[vikesfan]

But DG knows great QBs. He drafted Culpepper. And said the only QB he would take was Culpepper out of that draft class. And Culpepper was rated by just about everyone else as 3rd or 4th best. If Culpepper had been gone DG would have taken Kearse.

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Re: Re: Just Wonderin

Originally posted by spanky1
So are you mellowing.......because of the voice of reason or because your poll is now evening out......and, I'll just leave it at that!

I just proposed the question.

Maybe next time I'll ask "How many more people like so and so more than so and so?"

It wouldn't bother me if Josh won this poll and it apparently is bothering someone that Eli is.....and I'll just leave it at that!

Like I said ....we won't draft a QB anyway as Eli will no doubt be gone.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
First off. Unless you agree the QB position is the most important position in football then we got nothin' to talk about.

Second, I am not saying an endless cycle of drafting QB after QB. Its called finding YOUR QB of the future. If your convinced that is Josh McCown fine, but what if it isnt? You stick with Shaun King and hope he can lead you? Why wouldnt you take a QB now and groom him to be your future?

Look at Cincy. Think they are pissed they have, what they believe are 2 good QB's on the roster? I doubt it. Now they can go into the season knowing they are set at QB. If Palmer goes down or is bad, turn to Kitna. They still have a chance to win.

What happens if McCown goes down? What then? Your future 'Franchise' QB is not even on the roster yet, so you turn to King in hopes he can be "It" for the next few years? In the meantime re-drafting the QB you should have taken this year and wasting another year or 2 trying to get your 'future' set.

We have been so used to having flop after flop at QB that we dont know a great QB when we see it. We have been repeatedly conditioned to think that the likes of Plummer, McCown, and Blake can lead this team to the SuperBowl and I am tired of 'experiments". We need to go out and select a QB that can be the future of this team and lead this team the way Favre or McNair or the elder Manning has done for their respective teams.

If you think Josh is it, fine I hope I am wrong, but if he isnt, I am not ready to succumb to the fact that no backup plan is needed. Slice it anyway you want to, McCown is a huge risk!

QB is the most important position.

But you then do it again. Your quote:

"If your convinced that is Josh McCown fine, but what if it isnt? You stick with Shaun King and hope he can lead you? Why wouldnt you take a QB now and groom him to be your future?"

If you are convinced Manning is fine, what if he isn't?

Then again. Your quote:

"What happens if McCown goes down? What then?"

What happens is Manning goes down? I presume you wouldn't have your QB of the future on the roster then either since by then we already would know McCown didn;t pan out since Manning is starting.

My whole issue is, if Green thinks McCown is the man, then why would the Cards really use #3 overall money to get a QB. I am not saying I disagree with your points. I am just saying...a decsion has been made (McCown starts) so wouldn;t it be more prudent to fill another hole at #3 and if Green cannot get McCown to work out as he hoped that the QB sitation then becomes a priority next year?

 

[KingLouieLouie]

The Cardinals did exactly what I thought they would when they acquired Shaun King....In fact, they did even better since he is no retread.....

The fact is though, King was signed for 2-yrs which signifies that he is somewhat of a "stop gap" just in case McCown doesn't flourish as the starter....And King could very well prove himself as a starter as well since he never got a completely fair opportunity in Tampa......

As I brought-up awhile ago...McCown needed someone to give him a competitive edge....That he wouldn't become complacent, and if he began to struggle that he would look over his shoulder and take notice of his reserve on the sidelines and that would immediately make him focus and try harder...Otherwise, if he just had some "scrub" or "unproven rookie" warming-up, he would just remain in some low comfort zone and continue to flounder....

And to reiterate what I have said all along, if McCown (or King now in this case) fail, then there will be either some top-notch QB available in either '05 draft or FA who could be the Cardinals long-term QB.....

 

[RedStorm]

Originally posted by BuckeyeCardinal
Just wonderin.

Josh...

Just because Josh has some NFL experience and Eli will have none.

 

[john h]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
I second that. I'd rather take Eli over Josh -but whatever decision Dennis Green makes in that regard I will have to trust - the guy's done more with over-the hill and even bad QBs than anyone I can ever remember.

This is really not hard for me. Manning.

 

[john h]

Originally posted by Shane H
You guys can laugh at Ryans comments all you want but it really does make some semblence of sense.

Josh has shown an ability at this level in his last four games.

Can you honestly say that Eli has shown any level of ability at the NFL level? NO!

Most of you are going on name recognition which is fine. But if the exact same person in the exact same body had the exact same stats in college and didnt have a dad and brother named Manning how many of you would be harping on drafting him if he was Billy Jones????

If I had to guess not near as many!

McCown has all the physical tools to be able to suucceed at this level. Time will tell and I have faith in Greens ability to judge a QB!

Actually most of us are probably going on what most of the professionals who make a living doing this thing think. If you gave every GM in the NFL his choice I think Manning would win every vote. Being SEC country I got to watch him play many games over his carreer and he impressed me. Josh has 3 NFL starts so he hardly qualifys for veteran status and his starts were not overwhelming. There are some instincts a QB is born with and are not learned such as reacting to what you see. eyesight, courage, brains,etc. I am not saying Josh does not have these but at the moment Manning is rated the top or second to the top in the draft by the guys who make a living judging these men.

 

[Red Air Force]

Originally posted by vikesfan
Here is the worst case scenairo Eli or Ben busts like most 1st round QBs do. You just wasted the #3 pick in the draft for a team that has plenty of holes.

If Josh flops he doesn't cost you a 1st round pick at #3. There will be more franchise QBs in the draft next year. There will be more name QBs cut in FA next year.

Don't gamble with high draft picks.

Here is the back up plan. Take a QB in the later rounds or FA. You have just as much chance to win a SB using that kind of QB.

Really? Please name for me all of the late round rookies who have won a SB for their team.

I'm sorry, I'm not interested in hoping that we sign the next 35 year old loser, or trusting in the fact that we will get the exact pick necessary to draft the QB we need and then spend another year grooming him anyway.

 

[Red Air Force]

Originally posted by AZCB34
QB is the most important position.

But you then do it again. Your quote:

"If your convinced that is Josh McCown fine, but what if it isnt? You stick with Shaun King and hope he can lead you? Why wouldnt you take a QB now and groom him to be your future?"

If you are convinced Manning is fine, what if he isn't?

Then again. Your quote:

"What happens if McCown goes down? What then?"

What happens is Manning goes down? I presume you wouldn't have your QB of the future on the roster then either since by then we already would know McCown didn;t pan out since Manning is starting.

My whole issue is, if Green thinks McCown is the man, then why would the Cards really use #3 overall money to get a QB. I am not saying I disagree with your points. I am just saying...a decsion has been made (McCown starts) so wouldn;t it be more prudent to fill another hole at #3 and if Green cannot get McCown to work out as he hoped that the QB sitation then becomes a priority next year?

I'm not convinced ANYONE will be great until they are.

The point is that you get yourself insurance.

If McCown goes down then you CAN turn to Manning if you draft him. If Manning goes down too, then you will have to scramble, but at least you had a REAL viable alternative.