Eli Manning or Josh McCown?

[john h]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yes

Originally posted by Shane H
First off if you like soley based on what you see then I commend you. The simple fact is that most people would care two cents about the guy if his name isnt Manning. Shoot probably 70% of the people that rave about this guy have to throw in the pedigree.

Your second paragraph is some nice spin though, I really liked that. Yea so what we lost three out of four games. Whats the relevancy to the situation. Troy Aikman went 1-15 his first year does that mean he was going to stink? NO!

The bottom line is that as much as you guys like to point out his record over those four games, this is still a team sport and it always will be. McCown had to work with arguably the worst set of WRs in all the NFL and a line that was providing little protection. In fract they flat out sucked and you all know it. Thats why we are all calling for an o-line upgrade via FA.

So he threw an Int for a TD? Big deal happens to every young QB Heck I have seen Peyton Manning throw like 8 returned for TDs in one season.

The fact remains that with the totality of what was seen it has been determined by Green and others that the kid is NFL material. It was also seen by many on this board.

McCown is our franchise QB right now and I suppose some of us should get used to it.

Actually pedigree can count in people as in horses. It gives you size,speed, exposure, etc. It is no accident that Barry Bonds farther was a great baseball player. Manning has been learning and talking QB football since peewee league with guys who have played in the NFL. Some of this stuff is absorbed.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by vikesfan
Here is the worst case scenairo Eli or Ben busts like most 1st round QBs do.

Is that really the case? DO most 1st rounders flop? I don't know--I'm not asking sarcastically; I wonder if this is something you've read, or if you've looked at first rounders in the last 15 years or so to see what the rate is...

 

[john h]

Originally posted by AZCB34
Ok...so McCown has the ptoential to flop...so you suggest the Cards draft Manning to plan for that possibility. If McCown flops, then you make Manning the starter next year but the same issue presents itself....Mannings flop potential, and it doesn't matter if it is high or low. You would then draft another QB just in case?

Wouldn;t that be an endless cycle of drafting QBs every year just in case one flops since you cannot predict the future?

EDIT: I am not against drafting a QB necessarily but think the Cards should go in a different direction since there are clearly other holes to fill.

the largest of all holes to fill will be QB. Can McCown do it? All we know is he played three average games. I did not see anything to indicate to me he might become a great QB but then again he might. I just think Manning has a better chance. You really cannot discount that his father and brother are and were great NFL QB's. It does not guarantee his greatness but it sure gives him a leg up on other contenders who might become very good.

 

[john h]

Originally posted by Shane H
You guys can laugh at Ryans comments all you want but it really does make some semblence of sense.

Josh has shown an ability at this level in his last four games.

Can you honestly say that Eli has shown any level of ability at the NFL level? NO!

Most of you are going on name recognition which is fine. But if the exact same person in the exact same body had the exact same stats in college and didnt have a dad and brother named Manning how many of you would be harping on drafting him if he was Billy Jones????

If I had to guess not near as many!

McCown has all the physical tools to be able to suucceed at this level. Time will tell and I have faith in Greens ability to judge a QB!

Actually most of us are probably going on what most of the professionals who make a living doing this thing think. If you gave every GM in the NFL his choice I think Manning would win every vote. Being SEC country I got to watch him play many games over his carreer and he impressed me. Josh has 3 NFL starts so he hardly qualifys for veteran status and his starts were not overwhelming. There are some instincts a QB is born with and are not learned such as reacting to what you see. eyesight, courage, brains,etc. I am not saying Josh does not have these but at the moment Manning is rated the top or second to the top in the draft by the guys who make a living judging these men.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
First off. Unless you agree the QB position is the most important position in football then we got nothin' to talk about.

Second, I am not saying an endless cycle of drafting QB after QB. Its called finding YOUR QB of the future. If your convinced that is Josh McCown fine, but what if it isnt? You stick with Shaun King and hope he can lead you? Why wouldnt you take a QB now and groom him to be your future?

Look at Cincy. Think they are pissed they have, what they believe are 2 good QB's on the roster? I doubt it. Now they can go into the season knowing they are set at QB. If Palmer goes down or is bad, turn to Kitna. They still have a chance to win.

What happens if McCown goes down? What then? Your future 'Franchise' QB is not even on the roster yet, so you turn to King in hopes he can be "It" for the next few years? In the meantime re-drafting the QB you should have taken this year and wasting another year or 2 trying to get your 'future' set.

We have been so used to having flop after flop at QB that we dont know a great QB when we see it. We have been repeatedly conditioned to think that the likes of Plummer, McCown, and Blake can lead this team to the SuperBowl and I am tired of 'experiments". We need to go out and select a QB that can be the future of this team and lead this team the way Favre or McNair or the elder Manning has done for their respective teams.

If you think Josh is it, fine I hope I am wrong, but if he isnt, I am not ready to succumb to the fact that no backup plan is needed. Slice it anyway you want to, McCown is a huge risk!

Your right maybe we have been conditioned into thinking that A Plummerr etc...will lead us to the promised land. But Green hasent been. He likes McCown.

Do I think Cinci is pissed that they have 2 qbs? No not at all but I certainly believe that if they knew how good Kitna would have become they wouldnt have wasted their pick on Palmer. But in actuallity the debate is still on wether they have two serviceable QBs. Palmer could still be a HUGE BUST! Now that Palmer has the huge salary and draft status they are going to be forced to play him over Kitna which IMO is wrong. Kitna has earned every right to lead that team!

In your above post the last sentence is very telling because that sentence works just as well when you plug Eli Mannings name into it.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by john h
Actually most of us are probably going on what most of the professionals who make a living doing this thing think. If you gave every GM in the NFL his choice I think Manning would win every vote. Being SEC country I got to watch him play many games over his carreer and he impressed me. Josh has 3 NFL starts so he hardly qualifys for veteran status and his starts were not overwhelming. There are some instincts a QB is born with and are not learned such as reacting to what you see. eyesight, courage, brains,etc. I am not saying Josh does not have these but at the moment Manning is rated the top or second to the top in the draft by the guys who make a living judging these men.

Come on we all know the success rate of the guys "who make a living judging these me" For every great one there is a flop. That is almost certain.

Your right there are only 3 starts but how many does Eli have?

Plus no youwouldnt have every GM and coach that would pick Manning. Im pretty certain you have two guys on this team that would take a pass. We'll see.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by CaliforniaCard
Really? Please name for me all of the late round rookies who have won a SB for their team.

Kurt Warner
Tom Brady
Brad Johnson

Thats just three in the last 5 years!

Go back further and Im sure there are many more including:

Joe Montana &
Doug Williams

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by Shane H
Kurt Warner
Tom Brady
Brad Johnson

Thats just three in the last 5 years!

Go back further and Im sure there are many more including:

Joe Montana &
Doug Williams

to be fair, only Brady from this list was a rookie.

 

[Red Air Force]

Originally posted by vikesfan

Here is the back up plan. Take a QB in the later rounds or FA. You have just as much chance to win a SB using that kind of QB.

I think you missed what I was quoting.

...and even Brady wasn't a Rookie.

Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
2000 New England Patriots 1 0 3 1 33.3 6 2.00 6 0 0 0/0 0 0 42.4
2001 New England Patriots 15 14 413 264 63.9 2843 6.88 91 18 12 41/216 32 6 86.5
2002 New England Patriots 16 16 601 373 62.1 3764 6.26 49 28 14 31/190 37 3 85.7
2003 New England Patriots 16 16 527 317 60.2 3620 6.87 82 23 12 32/219 44 8 85.9
TOTAL 48 46 1544 955 61.9 10233 6.63 91 69 38 104/625 113 17 85.9


Drafting a late round QB is not a "Backup Plan".

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by john h
Actually most of us are probably going on what most of the professionals who make a living doing this thing think. And just exactly what would that be Oh great swamie Karnac? If you gave every GM in the NFL his choice I think Manning would win every vote....And under your little scenario, how many of these "all knowing" "professionals" have that much "inside", intimate, or actual working knowledge of what's going on with THIS TEAM? This is such a worthless line of reasoning, its Simply Amazing!!!. Being SEC country I got to watch him play many games over his carreer and he impressed me.Ahaa...finally maybe a little bit of the truth starts to show its face......you are a Manning homer more than a Card fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! why does this not surprise me????? Josh has 3 NFL starts so he hardly qualifys for veteran status and his starts were not overwhelming. There are some instincts a QB is born with and are not learned such as reacting to what you see. eyesight, courage, brains,etc. I am not saying Josh does not have these but at the moment Manning is rated the top or second to the top in the draft by the guys who make a living judging these men. ![/COLOR] Blah, blah, blah, doesn't all this spinning make you dizzy? It would appear it does

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by AZCB34
QB is the most important position.

But you then do it again. Your quote:

"If your convinced that is Josh McCown fine, but what if it isnt? You stick with Shaun King and hope he can lead you? Why wouldnt you take a QB now and groom him to be your future?"

If you are convinced Manning is fine, what if he isn't?

Then again. Your quote:

"What happens if McCown goes down? What then?"

What happens is Manning goes down? I presume you wouldn't have your QB of the future on the roster then either since by then we already would know McCown didn;t pan out since Manning is starting.

My whole issue is, if Green thinks McCown is the man, then why would the Cards really use #3 overall money to get a QB. I am not saying I disagree with your points. I am just saying...a decsion has been made (McCown starts) so wouldn;t it be more prudent to fill another hole at #3 and if Green cannot get McCown to work out as he hoped that the QB sitation then becomes a priority next year?

Let me put this very simlply.

I have no problem with McCown starting.

I do not want to go through another Plummer-era type reign where we have only 1 QB option

Eli Manning would be a great option to have and will be, according to most 'experts' a very good QB.

I dont like McCown for the long term answer but if he can do it great, lets give him a chance to prove it.

In the meantime, instead of putting all your faith in one QB that, according to most experts, is NOT agreat QB, does not have the same tremendous upside as Manning, and is not the prospect Manning is, why not draft a QB that CAN get the job done?

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Shane H
Your right maybe we have been conditioned into thinking that A Plummerr etc...will lead us to the promised land. But Green hasent been. He likes McCown.

Do I think Cinci is pissed that they have 2 qbs? No not at all but I certainly believe that if they knew how good Kitna would have become they wouldnt have wasted their pick on Palmer. But in actuallity the debate is still on wether they have two serviceable QBs. Palmer could still be a HUGE BUST! Now that Palmer has the huge salary and draft status they are going to be forced to play him over Kitna which IMO is wrong. Kitna has earned every right to lead that team!

In your above post the last sentence is very telling because that sentence works just as well when you plug Eli Mannings name into it.

Cincy is in a unique position. Kitna has been in this league a while and had never played that well. He was an average QB until last year. They took Palmer (who I dont particularly like) as insurance for the most important position in football.

I think they would have drafted Palmer regardless how Kitna had played this year b/c you just cant look at 1 season and prior to this season Kitna is not the QB that was gonna lead them anywhere. Th debate is still out if he can or not.

All I am saying is that if McCown flops you got no other options to fall back on. You must start all over again next year. The what do you do, go after a Jeff Gerge type or draft another QB?

I see 2 years wasted when you are in a perfect position to takle this problem now.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Let me put this very simlply.

I have no problem with McCown starting.

I do not want to go through another Plummer-era type reign where we have only 1 QB option

Eli Manning would be a great option to have and will be, according to most 'experts' a very good QB.

I dont like McCown for the long term answer but if he can do it great, lets give him a chance to prove it.

In the meantime, instead of putting all your faith in one QB that, according to most experts, is NOT agreat QB, does not have the same tremendous upside as Manning, and is not the prospect Manning is, why not draft a QB that CAN get the job done?

Jake was a different time, a different situation, with different coaching and mgmt personnel. What has that got to do with anything in the here and now?

Why this insistance that Manning is the only QB now that "can get it done?

I don't think anyone is dissing Manning or denying that he has some of that infamous "potential". But that's all he has. Which is exactly what Josh has. Which is exactly what some top College QB's entering the draft next year, and the year after that, and the year after that, will have.

My guess is that a lot of the Manning advocates are much like johnh....more Manning homers than Card fans.

The only "professionals" opinions that I really give a rats azz about right now is Dennis Green's and Rod Graves. And Dennis Green has already said McCown will be the starter next year.
So far both he and Graves have not "lied" about anything. Why would this be any different?

Considering that, then, there are other areas that can be addressed to overall improve this team.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, and repeatedly, and repeatedly....Dennis Green doesn't need a superstar jQB for his "system" to be efficient, anyway.

Get over it !!!!

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Jake was a different time, a different situation, with different coaching and mgmt personnel. What has that got to do with anything in the here and now?

Why this insistance that Manning is the only QB now that "can get it done?

I don't think anyone is dissing Manning or denying that he has some of that infamous "potential". But that's all he has. Which is exactly what Josh has. Which is exactly what some top College QB's entering the draft next year, and the year after that, and the year after that, will have.

My guess is that a lot of the Manning advocates are much like johnh....more Manning homers than Card fans.

The only "professionals" opinions that I really give a rats azz about right now is Dennis Green's and Rod Graves. And Dennis Green has already said McCown will be the starter next year.
So far both he and Graves have not "lied" about anything. Why would this be any different?

Considering that, then, there are other areas that can be addressed to overall imorove this team.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, and repeatedly, and repeatedly....Dennis Green doesn't need a superstar jQB for his "system" to be efficient, anyway.

Get over it !!!!

Nice try!

You failed to once comment on what I had wrote. Yet you somehow managed to twist it so I am not a Cardinals fan but a Manning homer. Your retorts are tired and weak!

Hey Tango, you might want to look at the thread title: Its called ELI MANNING OR JOSH MCCOWN That is why we are talking about Manning



It is not the same era, nor coaching staff, system as you say I will agree and my reference to Plummer was only to point out the lack of an option at QB besides him. I think you understood that right?

That seems to be the same spiral we are heading towards now.

"Lets let McCown be the starter, forget that he might not be the answer and start over again if he fails"

We dont need no stinkin' QB!

Weak as hell.....

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by Pariah
to be fair, only Brady from this list was a rookie.

True. However his question was not how many late round rookies have won the super bowl in their first year. It was how many have won the superbowl?

Now if were talking first year then heck name me one high round rookie QB that has won the SB in their first year?

Not one tha I can think of so I dont see the relevancy?

 

[Lex]

My two cents worth.

I played on two undefeated football teams in my life, and our quarterback averaged 5 pass attempts per game. Linemen are the most important people in the NFL.

If you want a good pedigree, Brian Greise is available.
If you want a franchise quarterback, the #1 overall pick in 1999, just lost his job to an undrafted 1999 free agent, Jeff Garcia. Tim Couch refused to take a 9 million dollar PAY CUT. 9 Million.

Highly touted John Kitna, lost his job, because Carson Palmer is making too much money riding the pine.

We have had a different quarterback in Arizona every year, except the Jake run, including last year, and this year. I hope NEXT YEAR, we start another run with Josh at the helm.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Nice try!

You failed to once comment on what I had wrote. HUH? Go back and read it again. That is patently incorrect. I even included part of your own words "can get it done". You seem to be the one "twisting" words here Yet you somehow managed to twist it so I am not a Cardinals fan but a Manning homer.Wrongo!!!! I specifically did not say that, The only person I named was johnh, and even then, I don't say he is not a Card fan...just that being a Manning homer seems to take priority over the good of the team as a whole. (I did say my guess is A LOT of the Manning suporters are probably like him. If you want to include yourself in that catagory...so be it....I didn't. Your retorts are tired and weak!
Blah, blah, blah...the pot calling the kettle black.
Hey Tango, you might want to look at the thread title: Its called ELI MANNING OR JOSH MCCOWN That is why we are talking about Manning



It is not the same era, nor coaching staff, system as you say I will agree and my reference to Plummer was only to point out the lack of an option at QB besides him. I think you understood that right?
Yes, in fact I evidently "understood" even far more than you seem to realize !!!
That seems to be the same spiral we are heading towards now.
That's YOUR opinion. It's your story, so go ahead and stick too it, no matter what.

"Lets let McCown be the starter, That's what Dennis Green apparently is saying. forget that he might not be the answer and start over again if he fails" That's apparently what YOU say. I heartily disagree, and somehow I tend to think I'm not alone, as indications, so far, is that G&G evidently don't agree with you either.

We dont need no stinkin' QB! Who said that? your histrionic hyperbole here is singularly unimpressive. We have 3 QB's on the team right now....that's the whole point. And between the 3 of them, the team should be fine. !!!

Weak as hell..... So say you.

I hope this time you don't feel slighted that I didn't address a single thing you said.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
I hope this time you don't feel slighted that I didn't address a single thing you said.

I dont feel slighted Tango. I got from your post exactly what was expected.

You have always been the one with blind hope that players will pan out while the I would like to see the team actually get better and show concrete improvement.

Good day!

 

[Red Air Force]

Originally posted by Shane H
True. However his question was not how many late round rookies have won the super bowl in their first year. It was how many have won the superbowl?

Now if were talking first year then heck name me one high round rookie QB that has won the SB in their first year?

You make my point for me.

Vikes suggested "plan" was to draft a late round QB because "You have just as much chance to win a SB using that kind of QB."

The fact is...no you don't.

Of ALL the QBs who have led their team to a SB a full 63% we drafted in the first or second round.

Only 16% of the QBs who've played in a Super Bowl were drafted in the 6th round or lower.

I'll take my chances with the 1st rounder. :-|

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by Shane H
True. However his question was not how many late round rookies have won the super bowl in their first year. It was how many have won the superbowl?

I guess I got caught up in what you were actually saying. A late round rookie winning the Super Bowl means that the "rookie" (first-year player) won the championship.

You meant to say late-round pick.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by Lex
My two cents worth.

I played on two undefeated football teams in my life, and our quarterback averaged 5 pass attempts per game. Linemen are the most important people in the NFL.

Lex, you have two completely separate ideas in this paragraph. It's not that I disagree with you, but unless the undeafeated teams you played on were in the NFL, it's very difficult to make the leap from the QBs and offenses with which you played and the QBs and the offenses in the NFL.

I would guess that if an NFL team had an offense that averaged less than 5 passes a game they wouldn't be undefeated.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Lex
My two cents worth.

I played on two undefeated football teams in my life, and our quarterback averaged 5 pass attempts per game. Linemen are the most important people in the NFL.

If you want a good pedigree, Brian Greise is available.
If you want a franchise quarterback, the #1 overall pick in 1999, just lost his job to an undrafted 1999 free agent, Jeff Garcia. Tim Couch refused to take a 9 million dollar PAY CUT. 9 Million.

Highly touted John Kitna, lost his job, because Carson Palmer is making too much money riding the pine.

We have had a different quarterback in Arizona every year, except the Jake run, including last year, and this year. I hope NEXT YEAR, we start another run with Josh at the helm.

How does playing on a high school team who averages 5 pass attempts per game have anything to do with the NFL.?

I would like to see one NFL team do that and be succssful.

You are hoping next year we start another run with Josh at the helm, but apparently your ok with him regardless of how well he plays then right? Oh thats right you enjoyed all those wasted years with Plummer!

I mean since the team has no other options except McCown....

 

[Lex]

Just trying to show my point of reference. I think quarterbacks are totally over rated. The undefeated teams I played on, won with defense, and special teams. We pounded the ball on the ground. If we were stopped, we punted, and either got a turnover on defense, or gained yards on the exchange.

The Ravens and Bucs recent Super Bowl wins employed this tack.

Linemen win in the NFL. I would use my #1 draft pick, EVERY YEAR, on a lineman.

Look at all the offensive super stars in the NFL, then look at who is doing the blocking for them. Those guys in the trenches are the reason for the success of the skill players.

I would be for 13-10 wins all the time, but I also realize beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[vikesfan]

It's really easy just look at all the QBs drafted in the first round even second and you sill see lots of busts.

The NFL has changed you no longer need a first round QB to win a SB or get to a SB.

With the amount of money they suck up and the starting problems they create...

I have seen the stat that indicates most QBs don't become good til early 30s.

With systems being more important
then ever and with FA being that way it is that first round QB is not necessary. It can hinder a team look what it has done to CIN.

Look at CLE remember when they took Couch now look at the mess they want take Garcia.

You can win with a first round QB. But it doesn't change that its a risky thing. You don't have to take that risk.

Warner Bulger Brady B Johnson Delhome Gannon etc

A blown #3 pick for a rebuilding team is an error.


Did you read the "Cards on EPSN" thread and the things DG said. He wants to win now. He doesn't want a saviour sitting on the bench for 2 years and then being brought in and what if he flops. He wants all the players in the same boat not some guy on shore. The whole team is in the same boat with Josh and there is a hole. Drafting a QB #1 is an excuse for losing.




And no guarantee the winning will start in 1 or 2 years when he comes in.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Lex
Look at all the offensive super stars in the NFL, then look at who is doing the blocking for them. Those guys in the trenches are the reason for the success of the skill players.

Who plays in front of Mike Vick? Don't look it up. Tell me one starter on EITHER line for the Falcs in 2002 or 2003.

Name one starter besides Damian Woody on the Pats O-line.

The 2002 Bucs had one of the least-talented lines in the NFL!